Which is the best team of the 21st century?

[Philhawk]

Read the OP.

It's not asking who the best performed club is. It's asking which sides team of the century (so far) is the strongest.

Fair, my bad.

Is it mutually exclusive though, I wonder? Are great teams full of players who are great, because they won flags? Or can teams have great players who surpassed them, despite not winning (or winning far less) flags?

 

[NetworkNerd]

The big question I have is will Geelong move the premierships goalpost from 1870 to 2000 if they get up this year?

 

[Mr Meow]

The big question I have is will Geelong move the premierships goalpost from 1870 to 2000 if they get up this year?

You're confusing "big question" with the irrational thoughts within your head.

 

[RUNVS]

Someone at the AFL clearly had the same idea as me

Adelaide
B: Nathan Bassett, Ben Rutten, Ben Hart
HB: Rory Laird, Daniel Talia, Andrew McLeod
C: Simon Goodwin, Scott Thompson, Rory Sloane
HF: Tyson Edwards, Kurt Tippett, Brett Burton
F: Eddie Betts, Taylor Walker, Josh Jenkins
Foll: Sam Jacobs, Patrick Dangerfield, Mark Ricciuto
I/C: Jordan Dawson, Matt Crouch, Brodie Smith, Graham Johncock
Sub: Richard Douglas

Brisbane
B: Chris Johnson, Harris Andrews, Darryl White
HB: Chris Scott, Justin Leppitsch, Daniel Rich
C: Nigel Lappin, Simon Black, Hugh McCluggage
HF: Dayne Zorko, Jonathan Brown, Jason Akermanis
F: Charlie Cameron, Alastair Lynch, Joe Daniher
Foll: Stefan Martin, Michael Voss, Lachie Neale
I/C: Brandon Starcevich, Shaun Hart, Tom Rockliff, Luke Power
Sub: Tim Notting

Carlton
B: Andrew McKay, Stephen Silvagni, Kade Simpson
HB: Sam Docherty, Jacob Weitering, Heath Scotland
C: Scott Camporeale, Anthony Koutoufides, Brett Ratten
HF: Matthew Lappin, Harry McKay, Marc Murphy
F: Eddie Betts, Brendan Fevola, Charlie Curnow
Foll: Matthew Kreuzer, Patrick Cripps, Chris Judd
I/C: Andrew Carrazzo, Bryce Gibbs, Sam Walsh, Lance Whitnall
Sub: Andrew Walker

Collingwood
B: James Clement, Simon Prestigiacomo, Nick Maxwell
HB: Heath Shaw, Darcy Moore, Ben Johnson
C: Steele Sidebottom, Dane Swan, Dale Thomas
HF: Alan Didak, Anthony Rocca, Jordan De Goey
F: Jamie Elliott, Travis Cloke, Leon Davis
Foll: Brodie Grundy, Nathan Buckley, Scott Pendlebury
I/C: Nick Daicos, Jack Crisp, Paul Licuria, Brayden Maynard
Sub: Scott Burns

Essendon
B: Mark Johnson, Dustin Fletcher, Michael Hurley
HB: Dyson Heppell, Cale Hooker, Brendon Goddard
C: Brent Stanton, Jobe Watson, Adam Ramanauskas
HF: James Hird, Scott Lucas, Mark Mercuri
F: Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti, Matthew Lloyd, Joe Daniher
Foll: David Hille, Zach Merrett, Jason Johnson
I/C: Sean Wellman, Joe Misiti, Paddy Ryder, Dean Solomon
Sub: Mark McVeigh

Fremantle
B: Antoni Grover, Shane Parker, Roger Hayden
HB: Michael Johnson, Luke McPharlin, Luke Ryan
C: Stephen Hill, David Mundy, Shaun McManus
HF: Michael Walters, Matthew Pavlich, Hayden Ballantyne
F: Jeff Farmer, Tony Modra, Justin Longmuir
Foll: Aaron Sandilands, Nat Fyfe, Peter Bell
I/C: Andrew Brayshaw, Caleb Serong, Paul Hasleby, Ryan Crowley
Sub: Lachie Neale

Best of the best: Your club's team of the century (so far), Part I

Some players are automatic selections. For others, it's a line-ball call. AFL.com.au's reporters make the call on your club's best side since the turn of the century

www.afl.com.au

 

[RUNVS]

Also for fun I am going to take a stab at the AFL ladder if these teams went into a season together.

1. Geelong
2. Hawthorn
3. Sydney
4. West Coast
5. Brisbane
6. Carlton
7. St Kilda
8. Adelaide
9. Collingwood
10. Essendon
11. Richmond
12. Port Adelaide
13. Fremantle
14. Western Bulldogs
15. Melbourne
16. GWS
17. North Melbourne
18. Gold Coast

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Also for fun I am going to take a stab at the AFL ladder if these teams went into a season together.

1. Geelong
2. Hawthorn
3. Sydney
4. West Coast
5. Brisbane
6. Carlton
7. St Kilda
8. Adelaide
9. Collingwood
10. Essendon
11. Richmond
12. Port Adelaide
13. Fremantle
14. Western Bulldogs
15. Melbourne
16. GWS
17. North Melbourne
18. Gold Coast

10 teams better than:

B: Grimes Gaspar Rance
HB: Vlastuin Bowden Houli
C: Deledio Cotchin Campbell
HF: Edwards Bolton Brown
FF: Richardson Riewoldt Lynch
R: Nankervis Martin Prestia

I/C D Rioli Newman Lambert Johnson

10 clubs must have pretty strong teams.

 

[RUNVS]

10 teams better than:

B: Grimes Gaspar Rance
HB: Vlastuin Bowden Houli
C: Deledio Cotchin Campbell
HF: Edwards Bolton Brown
FF: Richardson Riewoldt Lynch
R: Nankervis Martin Prestia

I/C D Rioli Newman Lambert Johnson

10 clubs must have pretty strong teams.

Well they are each best team of the 21st century so really all the teams are very strong, though obviously Gold Coast and GWS are at a massive disadvantage.

I think compared to others Richmond's midfield is sort of lacking, and your ruck is poor, not saying bad, but just in comparison to other clubs.

 

[Fadge]

10 teams better than:

B: Grimes Gaspar Rance
HB: Vlastuin Bowden Houli
C: Deledio Cotchin Campbell
HF: Edwards Bolton Brown
FF: Richardson Riewoldt Lynch
R: Nankervis Martin Prestia

I/C D Rioli Newman Lambert Johnson

10 clubs must have pretty strong teams.

At least.

Clearly Gold Coast and North Melbourne (though they will trump Richmond in 5 years once we can add LDU, Larkey, Sheezel, etc.)

Lucky GWS have only been in the comp for half the time, but they're still competitive.

Bottom 6 for mine.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Well they are each best team of the 21st century so really all the teams are very strong, though obviously Gold Coast and GWS are at a massive disadvantage.

I think compared to others Richmond's midfield is sort of lacking, and your ruck is poor, not saying bad, but just in comparison to other clubs.

I think it is fair to say our backline & forward line are world class but our midfield(including ruck) wouldn't be as strong relative to some others.

I do think when a ruck stands up through 3 flag campaigns(2 of them with no proper backup) we are entitled to say he is not a weakness, even compared to the very best. We have 2 x Brownlow Medallists in our midfield(Cotchin & Martin) and 2 highly suited players of class on the wings. Plus some depth and variety inside in Prestia, Johnson, Bolton & Edwards. I understand it is the same for most teams but there aren't too many iffy players in that lot. Our forwards and backs would stand up to anyone's.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

At least.

Clearly Gold Coast and North Melbourne.

Lucky GWS have only been in the comp for half the time, but they're still competitive.

Bottom 6 for mine.

Lol, what a surprise.

 

[RUNVS]

I think it is fair to say our backline & forward line are world class but our midfield(including ruck) wouldn't be as strong relative to some others.

I do think when a ruck stands up through 3 flag campaigns(2 of them with no proper backup) we are entitled to say he is not a weakness, even compared to the very best. We have 2 x Brownlow Medallists in our midfield(Cotchin & Martin) and 2 highly suited players of class on the wings. Plus some depth and variety inside in Prestia, Johnson, Bolton & Edwards. I understand it is the same for most teams but there aren't too many iffy players in that lot. Our forwards and backs would stand up to anyone's.

Just in comparison though, Brisbane, and I am selecting a team almost at random have Black, Voss, Lappin, Neale and Zorko just in their midfield.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Just in comparison though, Brisbane, and I am selecting a team almost at random have Black, Voss, Lappin, Neale and Zorko just in their midfield.

Definitely the best half dozen or so midfields bat deeper than Richmond's with top class players. Not sure there are more than about 6 clubs with clearly better midfields though.

Also not sure how many of those teams are coming close to matching our combined defence and forward lines. We have 3 top class key defenders, and 3 top class key forwards, have any other clubs got that level of depth & class in those crucial positions? Then guys like Vlastuin, Houli, Bolton, Edwards, Brown, Bowden, Dan Rioli filling out the rest of the positions in defence & attack. And of course the scary threat of Dusty lurking forward for us in between stints in the middle.

I wouldn't think 10 teams better than that team is realistic, though I recognise the difficulty of the exercise. Crows for eg have Jenkins as a key forward & no 3rd tall defender to even compare with Grimes in the team you named, and it is not like their midfield is a class above ours.

 

[RUNVS]

Definitely the best half dozen or so midfields bat deeper than Richmond's with top class players. Not sure there are more than about 6 clubs with clerly better midfields though.

Also not sure how many of those teams are coming close to matching our combined defence and forard lines. We have 3 top class key defenders, and 3 top class key forwards, have any other clubs got that level of depth & class in those crucial positions? Then guys like Vlastuin, Houli, Bolton, Edwards, Brown, Bowden, Dan Rioli filling out the rest of the positions in defence & attack. And of course the scary threat of Dusty lurking forward for us in between stints in the middle.

I wouldn't think 10 teams better than that team is realistic, though I recognise the difficulty of the exercise. Crows for eg have Jenkins as a key forward & no 3rd tall defender to even compare with Grimes in the team you named, and it is not like their midfield is a class above ours.

Richmond's defence is very good, I will give you that but I think your forward line is filled with (at least in the context of all these best 22's), good forwards who are not necessarily great.

Richardson, very talented, also erratic, Lynch, a top 5 key forward of his day but in the context of 21st century no where near it, and Riewoldt was probably the 3rd or 4th best key forward of his day, but not particularly damaging in a 21st century context.

Compare that to my club for instance

Buddy, Hall, O'Loughlin, Davis, Papley, O'Keefe. It is a much harder forward line to stop, better balanced and both Buddy and Hall are better than Riewoldt, Lynch and Richardson as key forwards.

Side note, I think there has been quite a bit of change for the Swans in the last couple of years when this thread was made.

Sydney
B: Smith, Richards, Roberts-Thompson
HB: McVeigh, C.Bolton, Kennelly
C: Goodes, Jack, Hannebery
HF: Papley, Franklin, Davis
F: O'Loughlin, Hall, O'Keefe
Foll: Ball, Kennedy, Kirk
Int: Parker, Malceski, J.Bolton, Rampe

I think now it would be

out - Hannebery, J.Bolton
in - Gulden, Warner, Heeney

so

Sydney
B: Smith, Richards, Roberts-Thompson
HB: McVeigh, C.Bolton, Kennelly
C: Goodes, Jack, Gulden
HF: Papley, Franklin, Davis
F: O'Loughlin, Hall, O'Keefe
Foll: Ball, Kennedy, Kirk
Int: Parker, Malceski, Warner, Rampe
Emg - Heeney

Makes the team a bit faster too, taking out Bolton as we have enough hard at it mids in the team, and Hannebery, for as tough as he was, was not particularly accurate with his disposal. Adding Warner and Gulden to the team definitely adds more speed and class.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Richmond's defence is very good, I will give you that but I think your forward line is filled with (at least in the context of all these best 22's), good forwards who are not necessarily great.

Richardson, very talented, also erratic, Lynch, a top 5 key forward of his day but in the context of 21st century no where near it, and Riewoldt was probably the 3rd or 4th best key forward of his day, but not particularly damaging in a 21st century context.

Compare that to my club for instance

Buddy, Hall, O'Loughlin, Davis, Papley, O'Keefe. It is a much harder forward line to stop, better balanced and both Buddy and Hall are better than Riewoldt, Lynch and Richardson as key forwards.

Side note, I think there has been quite a bit of change for the Swans in the last couple of years when this thread was made.

Sydney
B: Smith, Richards, Roberts-Thompson
HB: McVeigh, C.Bolton, Kennelly
C: Goodes, Jack, Hannebery
HF: Papley, Franklin, Davis
F: O'Loughlin, Hall, O'Keefe
Foll: Ball, Kennedy, Kirk
Int: Parker, Malceski, J.Bolton, Rampe

I think now it would be

out - Hannebery, J.Bolton
in - Gulden, Warner, Heeney

so

Sydney
B: Smith, Richards, Roberts-Thompson
HB: McVeigh, C.Bolton, Kennelly
C: Goodes, Jack, Gulden
HF: Papley, Franklin, Davis
F: O'Loughlin, Hall, O'Keefe
Foll: Ball, Kennedy, Kirk
Int: Parker, Malceski, Warner, Rampe
Emg - Heeney

Makes the team a bit faster too, taking out Bolton as we have enough hard at it mids in the team, and Hannebery, for as tough as he was, was not particularly accurate with his disposal. Adding Warner and Gulden to the team definitely adds more speed and class.

Your analysis is a bit shoddy on our key forwards imo.

The only specialist key forward this century you could say for certain is better than any of Lynch, J Riewoldt or Richardson is Franklin. By saying they are good and not great you are saying the following indicates players who are not great:


- Richardson who was our best player across his career & I think has clearly the highest contested marking average per game(2.77 v 2nd highest A Rocca 2.13) of all the leading contested marks since the stat began, that is a massive gap to have on the field in a key stat for key forwards,

- Riewoldt who won 3 Colemans, 3 x AA & 3 x leader of forward line in flags,

- Lynch who was a fiercely contested free agent, AA @ Suns & when fit at Richmond arguably as important as any player to his team - he has a 54-3-32(62% win rate) record at Richmond. When he has missed injured, the team has gone 14-1-33(30% win record.) That is extremely stark.

You can make decent cases for quite a few others being slightly better than our guys but they are somewhere up near the best of the rest, and we uniquely have 3 of them. There definitely is not another club that from the teams you picked who has a collection of 3 key forwards that good.

If Richmond lined up with a forward line of Riewoldt Lynch Richardson Bolton Brown & Martin, I don't think any team can come close to matching that if you are being serious. Naturally if you play Dusty forward you are robbing our midfield of its classiest player, but the way he was used he was always a threat forward even when playing mainly mid.

Imo in the Swans team, Heeney walks into that starting 22. Blakey &/or Mills would have to be very close as well.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Lynch isn't in conversation best forwards

Nowhere near

The other two - J Reiwoldt and Richo yes

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Lynch isn't in conversation best forwards

Nowhere near

The other two - J Reiwoldt and Richo yes

Lynch's record may not be as strong as the other pair, but he is still clearly a top class key forward.

 

[RUNVS]

Geelong
B: Tom Harley, Matthew Scarlett, Darren Milburn
HB: Tom Stewart, Harry Taylor, Corey Enright
C: James Kelly, Jimmy Bartel, Joel Corey
HF: Patrick Dangerfield, Cameron Mooney, Paul Chapman
F: Steve Johnson, Tom Hawkins, Jeremy Cameron
Foll: Brad Ottens, Joel Selwood, Gary Ablett jnr
I/C: Cameron Ling, Andrew Mackie, Mitch Duncan, Cam Guthrie
Sub: Mark Blicavs

Gold Coast
B: Charlie Ballard, Sam Collins, Sean Lemmens
HB: Jarrod Harbrow, Steven May, Wil Powell
C: Harley Bennell, David Swallow, Noah Anderson
HF: Ben Ainsworth, Tom Lynch, Alex Sexton
F: Brandon Matera, Ben King, Sam Day
Foll: Jarrod Witts, Gary Ablett, Touk Miller
I/C: Trent McKenzie, Michael Rischitelli, Matt Rowell, Jack Martin
Sub: Aaron Hall

GWS
B: Nick Haynes, Phil Davis, Zac Williams
HB: Heath Shaw, Sam Taylor, Lachie Whitfield
C: Dylan Shiel, Callan Ward, Tom Scully
HF: Toby Greene, Jeremy Cameron, Tim Taranto
F: Harry Himmelberg, Jesse Hogan, Brent Daniels
Foll: Shane Mumford, Josh Kelly, Stephen Coniglio
I/C: Jon Patton, Harry Perryman, Tom Green, Steve Johnson
Sub: Jacob Hopper

Hawthorn
B: Grant Birchall, Brian Lake, Josh Gibson
HB: Jordan Lewis, Luke Hodge, James Sicily
C: Isaac Smith, Tom Mitchell, Brad Hill
HF: Jack Gunston, Jarryd Roughead, Shaun Burgoyne
F: Luke Breust, Lance Franklin, Cyril Rioli
Foll: Ben McEvoy, Sam Mitchell, Shane Crawford
I/C: Liam Shiels, Brad Sewell, Ben Stratton, Paul Puopolo
Sub: Brent Guerra

Melbourne
B: Aaron Davey, Steven May, Michael Hibberd
HB: Jeremy Howe, Jake Lever, Trent Rivers
C: Ed Langdon, Clayton Oliver, Adem Yze
HF: Brad Green, David Schwarz, Bayley Fritsch
F: Jeff Farmer, David Neitz, Russell Robertson
Foll: Max Gawn, Christian Petracca, Nathan Jones
I/C: Jeff White, Jack Viney, Angus Brayshaw, Cameron Bruce
Sub: Christian Salem

North Melbourne
B: Robbie Tarrant, Scott Thompson, Michael Firrito
HB: Luke McDonald, Glenn Archer, Daniel Wells
C: Jack Ziebell, Anthony Stevens, Andrew Swallow
HF: Shaun Higgins, Drew Petrie, Shannon Grant
F: Brent Harvey, Nick Larkey, Lindsay Thomas
Foll: Todd Goldstein, Ben Cunnington, Adam Simpson
I/C: Wayne Carey, Ben Brown, Brady Rawlings, David King
Sub: Jy Simpkin

Best of the best: Your club's team of the century (so far), Part II

Some players are automatic selections. For others, it's a line-ball call. AFL.com.au's reporters make the call on your club's best side since the turn of the century

www.afl.com.au

 

[RUNVS]

It didn't take long for this thread to turn into the usual validation seeking from our Richmond supporting friend...

I personally think the Richmond team is not inside the top 10. There are some very good players in the team, but also players who don't quite seem up to the level of a lot of other teams.

I suspect Richmond's bottom 6 would be worse than the majority of teams bottom 6.

 

[Sttew]

I personally think the Richmond team is not inside the top 10. There are some very good players in the team, but also players who don't quite seem up to the level of a lot of other teams.

I suspect Richmond's bottom 6 would be worse than the majority of teams bottom 6.

Provocative post but the truth!

Stopwatch has started….

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I personally think the Richmond team is not inside the top 10. There are some very good players in the team, but also players who don't quite seem up to the level of a lot of other teams.

I suspect Richmond's bottom 6 would be worse than the majority of teams bottom 6.

Who are the bottom 6 in the Richmond team I named?

B: Grimes Gaspar Rance
HB: Vlastuin Bowden Houli
C: Deledio Cotchin Campbell
HF: Edwards Bolton Brown
FF: Richardson Riewoldt Lynch
R: Nankervis Martin Prestia

I/C D Rioli Newman Lambert Johnson

 

[RUNVS]

Who are the bottom 6 in the Richmond team I named?

B: Grimes Gaspar Rance
HB: Vlastuin Bowden Houli
C: Deledio Cotchin Campbell
HF: Edwards Bolton Brown
FF: Richardson Riewoldt Lynch
R: Nankervis Martin Prestia

I/C D Rioli Newman Lambert Johnson

Your entire interchange bench is pretty ordinary in the context of the other teams. Nankervis is a very poor tap ruckman, Vlastuin is not remotely special and Prestia is a midfielder who has never even gotten 1 All Australian, and it is easy to get an AA as a midfielder if you are halfway decent.

 

[Fadge]

Your entire interchange bench is pretty ordinary in the context of the other teams. Nankervis is a very poor tap ruckman, Vlastuin is not remotely special and Prestia is a midfielder who has never even gotten 1 All Australian, and it is easy to get an AA as a midfielder if you are halfway decent.

Campbell also played his best footy in the 90's, and Gaspar (whose career straddled the 90's and 00's) wouldn't be making many 21st Century teams either.

 

[Duck Farmer]

Must be us. I'm regularly told by many credible posters in multiple threads that Hinkley's W-L record and 2 x AFLCA awards puts him well ahead of Clarkson and Hardwick in the coaching department.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Your entire interchange bench is pretty ordinary in the context of the other teams. Nankervis is a very poor tap ruckman, Vlastuin is not remotely special and Prestia is a midfielder who has never even gotten 1 All Australian, and it is easy to get an AA as a midfielder if you are halfway decent.

Nankervis rucked 1 out through most of 3 winning finals series in case you don't recall. He is not going to be deficient, that is a ludicrous assessment. Sure he isn't Gawn or D Cox, but this is partly why Richmond have the luxury of a surplus of top class key position players over other teams. How many rucks have ever got hold of him across 14 finals?

Vlastuin would not look out of place in any of these teams, he is a terrific player. He has been rated since positional ratings began:

2024 20th highest general defender
2023 5th highest
2022 11th highest
2021 17th highest
2020 5th highest
2019 4th highest

So he is performing consistently to a very high level. Also a 3 time flag player, best 22 throughout his career.

Prestia won a B & F in a flag team and whilst not a superstar mid, he was a staple of Richmond's starting midfield through 3 flags & a Minor Premiership, he is not going to be worse than players most teams have in their midfield.

Dan Rioli was just traded at 27yo for picks 7 & 27 in what is said to be a very strong & deep draft. Also a 3 time flag player.

The other 3 Lambert, Newman, Johnson are higher end B Graders with great leadership qualities.

Let's look at Adelaide for one eg who you have above Richmond. They have Doughty, Rutten, Smith, Jenkins, Welsh, Douglas, Jacobs, Burton. Why exactly are those type of players better than the bottom end Richmond players you have nominated?

Even your Geelong team you rate so highly has Milburn, Mackie, Kelly, Duncan, Miers, Blicavs, Guthrie, Stokes, Corey - these guys aren't exactly all timers.

Just looks to me you are reaching to find reasons you rated Richmond so low and picked out a reason that could pretty much equally be applied to every team you picked.

Swans Smith, Richards, Roberts-Thompson, Kennelly, Jack, Davis, Ball, Malceski, Rampe - why exactly are those guys so much better than their Richmond counterparts?

 

[RUNVS]

Nankervis rucked 1 out through most of 3 winning finals series in case you don't call. He is not going to be deficient, that is a ludicrous assessment. Sure he isn't Gawn or D Cox, but this is partly why Richmond have the luxury of a surplus of top class key position players over other teams. How many rucks have ever got hold of him across 14 finals?

Vlastuin would not look out of place in any of these teams, he is a terrific player. He has been rated since positional ratings began:

2024 20th highest general defender
2023 5th highest
2022 11th highest
2021 17th highest
2020 5th highest
2019 4th highest

So he is performing consistently to a very high level. Also a 3 time flag player, best 22 throughout his career.

Prestia won a B & F in a flag team and whilst not a superstar mid, he was a staple of Richmond's starting midfield through 3 flags & a Minor Premiership, he is not going to be worse than players most teams have in their midfield.

Dan Rioli was just traded at 27yo for picks 7 & 27 in what is said to be a very strong & deep draft. Also a 3 time flag player.

Does not matter how many premierships Nankervis was involved in, he was still a below average tap ruckman.

Vlastuin, well I can't even recall him in most Richmond games, he certainly isn't someone people talk about as an elite player.

Prestia, again, his premiership totals do not matter, the fact remains he plays in the easiest position in the league to get in the AA team and he hasn't even done it once.

Rioli, well Gold Coast massively overpaid for him, and again, has never gotten an AA.

Swans Smith, Richards, Roberts-Thompson, Kennelly, Jack, Davis, Ball, Malceski, Rampe - why exactly are those guys so much better than their Richmond counterparts?

Smith is likely one of the best small defenders of the 21st century, Roberts-Thomson was critical for both our 2005 and 2012 premierships, was one of the best players on the field for both games and we likely would not have won without him. Kennelly and Malceski provided a huge amount of drive out of defence for the Swans, and were both excellent with their disposal. Ball, well he is just objectively a much better ruckman than Nankervis, Jack was very accurate by foot and very hard at it and Rampe, well I don't even need to describe how important he has been, him able in his prime to take on both tall and small forwards and usually beating them too, then providing a tonne of rebound as well.