Who finishes last in 2024?

[Makeshift Park]

i do not think they win either of their first 2 rounds without ziebell and logue

You mean the Eagles game where Ziebell had 0 contested possessions? He was not exactly a vital cog, if I remember well.

 

[rye]

You mean the Eagles game where Ziebell had 0 contested possessions? He was not exactly a vital cog, if I remember well.

the eagles game where ziebell had the most metres gained of all players on ground and went at 96% de from 26 disposals including 4 score involvements and 2 score launches from the defensive half

considering you are going to be playing mckercher off half back it seems like ziebell's quality in that role against the eagles is not readily found in the magoos at north

you would have lost that game without him

 

[Makeshift Park]

the eagles game where ziebell had the most metres gained of all players on ground and went at 96% de from 26 disposals including 4 score involvements and 2 score launches from the defensive half

considering you are going to be playing mckercher off half back it seems like ziebell's quality in that role against the eagles is not readily found in the magoos at north

you would have lost that game without him

Ziebs was okay without being a standout.

I mostly remember that game for Sheezel's 34 touch debut.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

How is it easy if the Eagles and Hawks have less A grade talent? That make no sense whatsoever.

North should be better equiped going forward, they just recieved the biggest draft assistance packages in AFL history.

Hawks have already shot past North.......with no assistance.

Roos have the weakest backline in the competition hands down.

Not sure who's forward line is worse ether.

Midfield is stacked with quality youth for sure.

Hawthorn and The Eagles backlines are not exactly gangbusters either. The Hawks defence falls apart if Sicily misses any games (for whatever reason) and McGovern is on his last legs.

Recruiting quality key position defenders is pretty much the hardest position to find in the draft imo and it's not as if North haven't tried finding any in previous drafts

 

[SSSSSS]

Hawthorn and The Eagles backlines are not exactly gangbusters either. The Hawks defence falls apart if Sicily misses any games (for whatever reason) and McGovern is on his last legs.

Recruiting quality key position defenders is pretty much the hardest position to find in the draft imo and it's not as if North haven't tried finding any in previous drafts

Both sides are still miles ahead of Corr (who himself is already inanimate carbon rod tier) + whichever inanimate carbon rod they can string together from the netherzone.

 

[apollo_creed]

Sorry, you must have missed my response in response to your list profile comment.

"I'm aware of that".

'List profile' =/= 'list performance' or 'list quality'.



Well yeah, sure. But this is a very simplistic way of looking at things.

You are completely ignoring other factors like quality, injury, form, fatigue etc., all of which are just as important as 'list profile'.

Again, why are you assuming Fremantle, Carlton, St Kilda, Essendon can't or won't improve as much as, if not more so, than North?
Is it simply 'list profile' and the vibe?

Are you asking for an essay juxtaposing the scope of improvement for North vs the other sides?

A younger list with a younger core has greater scope for improvement than an older side with an older core of key players.
Players hit an age where their progression/improvement is stagnant or players hit an age where their progression/improvement declines.

They are all considerations when assessing a side's scope for improvement.

And lets just take a step back here as well - you're arguing with me for saying North would win between 2-4 games of the first 10 in response to a new account poster who was clearly trolling.

North won 2 games of the first 10 last season, my statement wasn't in any way controversial or even arguing whether North would or wouldn't finish bottom. For all we know 17th might have 6 or 7 wins next season and winning 6 games might not even guarantee 17th or higher. You have taken a completely reasonable comment and gone on some crusade.

 

[apollo_creed]

North's experienced players who have left:
Ziebell - was serviceable at times last season, a couple of good games but also a complete liability at times with his ball use out of defense. Also isn't a good 1 v 1 defensive player so the defensive unit won't struggle as a result.
Goldstein - massive loss. this impact is the biggest concern.
Turner - contributed very little, easy to replace. struggled to get the ball or impact the scoreboard.
McKay - when he's playing well he's absolutely a defensive asset and Essendon do have a good player in their backline. last season for whatever reason he was poor.
Cunnington - barely played last season
Hall - didn't play much after the first half of the season, he tried hard but was soft and poor with the ball.

Goldstein is definitely a loss and McKay anywhere near his best is a loss but the natural improvement vs players that have left, or older players declining is much higher.

 

[apollo_creed]

Do think Fisher is an upgrade?


Phillips is seen by some North posters to be no good. You obviously think he’s going to be an upgrade on one of your best mids of the last 30 years?


You seem to really disregard experience and seasoned bodies. Xerri is a good ruck to have come in, but Goldstien was still having a significant impact for you out on the park even if he wasn’t getting his hands on it as much.


This is your biggest issue. It’s going to be pretty ugly unless Clarko reverts to his full ground press that could be some of the most unwatchable football you will ever see - speaking from experience of his last couple of years with us.

They won’t have many bigger bodies like Howe, Hall, Turner or Ziebell to protect them in 2024. Opposition coaches will look to go through their men at all times.
They’ll find it hard to rebound if they’re chasing arses back to the goals square constantly.

Fisher yes.

Agree with you on Phillips - jury is still out on him and 2024 is massive for him. Can't be considered an upgrade at this stage (assume you're talking about Cunnington) although Cunnington did hardly play in 2023.

Xerri isn't very good, slow and limited thing to offer around the ground, CCJ is also terrible. Ruck is massive issue as Goldstein has been consistently good for many years.

Howe, Hall and Turner aren't bigger bodies mate (just because they're older), that's a pretty average call. Hall was scared of body contact for starters. Turner struggled to impact the ball and defensively impact games. Howe was just a horrible drafting decision and his form last season was consistently poor. Your statement does apply to Ziebell, Cunnington and Goldstein though.

 

[SSSSSS]

Fisher yes.

Agree with you on Phillips - jury is still out on him and 2024 is massive for him. Can't be considered an upgrade at this stage (assume you're talking about Cunnington) although Cunnington did hardly play in 2023.

Xerri isn't very good, slow and limited thing to offer around the ground, CCJ is also terrible. Ruck is massive issue as Goldstein has been consistently good for many years.

Howe, Hall and Turner aren't bigger bodies mate (just because they're older), that's a pretty average call. Hall was scared of body contact for starters. Turner struggled to impact the ball and defensively impact games. Howe was just a horrible drafting decision and his form last season was consistently poor. Your statement does apply to Ziebell, Cunnington and Goldstein though.

Howe's a pretty big unit. He's slow (physically and decision making) but he's very strong and a good size.

 

[apollo_creed]

Howe's a pretty big unit. He's slow (physically and decision making) but he's very strong and a good size.

Yeah fair enough. But he did only play 11 games and defensively was not an asset in any way in the games he did. Being big is one thing knowing how to position yourself, use your body, being smart enough to zone off when required etc is another.

 

[SSSSSS]

So now Corr is in a moonboot.

Ruh roh.

 

[apollo_creed]

So now Corr is in a moonboot.

Ruh roh.

Have you seen him play mate?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Fisher yes.

Agree with you on Phillips - jury is still out on him and 2024 is massive for him. Can't be considered an upgrade at this stage (assume you're talking about Cunnington) although Cunnington did hardly play in 2023.

Xerri isn't very good, slow and limited thing to offer around the ground, CCJ is also terrible. Ruck is massive issue as Goldstein has been consistently good for many years.

Howe, Hall and Turner aren't bigger bodies mate (just because they're older), that's a pretty average call. Hall was scared of body contact for starters. Turner struggled to impact the ball and defensively impact games. Howe was just a horrible drafting decision and his form last season was consistently poor. Your statement does apply to Ziebell, Cunnington and Goldstein though.

I didn’t mean Bigger bodies quite that literally for all players mentioned. I’m talking also about core strength and physical readiness for AFL footy.

Liam Shiels is no monster but his core strength would be at the top of the list at the Roos you’d think. Turner, Hall not huge, but has seasoned bodies.

Incidentally, are you a Roos supporter or a Tiger? I’ve seen you say “we”.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Both sides are still miles ahead of Corr (who himself is already inanimate carbon rod tier) + whichever inanimate carbon rod they can string together from the netherzone.

You rate Frost and Blanck as individual players substantially higher than Corr?

Why?

 

[Purple Suit]

Curious why we would be getting worse?

Which players have we lost or a falling off a cliff that will offset half the team (24 and younger) naturally improving as they age?

Not to mention the list of players we can get back that missed most of last year (McGovern, Yeo, Cripps, Ryan)

It’s easy to say on surface but realistically all the older blokes either didn’t play many games last year, or were s**t (Darling, Gaff).

The only senior player that could have less output is pretty much Kelly.

Hurn & Shuey will be massive losses. Hurn still had a high output due to his game style in a team lacking current day stars. Shuey was at half pace but still smart and a leader.

The leadership will be missed and it’ll take a few years to replace in a team that can’t afford to lose anything on the plus side.

The bulk of the kids are year 1 so will take another year or two to get an AFL body. If they were freaks and bucking the trend they would have show it already.

Still a few years off till the worm turns unless McGovern, Yeo, Cripps & Ryan rediscover their best form. It would be like Fyfe winning a Brownlow in 2024 though.

 

[SSSSSS]

You rate Frost and Blanck as individual players substantially higher than Corr?

Why?

I think Frost and Blanck are on the same level as Corr at least as a KPD (Blanck has some scope for growth at least). Corr is better suited as a 3rd tall but likely won't have that luxury in 2024 (tbh so is Frosty).

Where Hawthorn pulls miles ahead of North is our small/medium sized defenders. Hardwick, Sicily, Weddle, CJ, Scrimshaw etc is miles better than what North can muster. A decent team defense can cover some holes. We have some pretty big holes though and so do North.

Eagles at least have Barrass and McGovern. If the latter is fit they have the best KPD pairing of the three sides. McGovern hasn't been fit for a while though.

 

[Orange crush]

Have you seen him play mate?

Indeed ... the moonboot could improve his play

 

[apollo_creed]

I didn’t mean Bigger bodies quite that literally for all players mentioned. I’m talking also about core strength and physical readiness for AFL footy.

Liam Shiels is no monster but his core strength would be at the top of the list at the Roos you’d think. Turner, Hall not huge, but has seasoned bodies.

Incidentally, are you a Roos supporter or a Tiger? I’ve seen you say “we”.

I identify as a Tiger but like Kangaroos. So the latter mate.

Shiels is still important and was good last season. Think the side coped alright without Hall last season in the second half, his running capacity was definitely his strength. I think there is an issue with lots of younger players and their ability to withstand a full-season physically which is where having a healthy balance of older players (however poor they are) is handy and where it could be an issue.

 

[SSSSSS]

Have you seen him play mate?

I have unfortunately.

But if he isn't fit for round 1 North could be rolling out a KPD pairing of Comben/Nyuon with a combined AFL experience of 1 game in defence.

 

[Jeremias]

Are you asking for an essay juxtaposing the scope of improvement for North vs the other sides?

I asked you a very simple question. Why do you continue to ignore it?

A younger list with a younger core has greater scope for improvement than an older side with an older core of key players.
Players hit an age where their progression/improvement is stagnant or players hit an age where their progression/improvement declines.

They are all considerations when assessing a side's scope for improvement.

You seem to have fallen into the classic BigFooty trap where it's more important to be young than to be good.

Scope is great and leaves supporters all warm and fuzzy, but like 'list profile' it is a buzzword that is trotted out with no real quantifiable metric.

Again, you are completely ignoring other factors like quality, injury, form, fatigue, and in this specific case, the reasons why other clubs may have improved on last year, beyond of course 'scope' and 'list profile'.

And lets just take a step back here as well - you're arguing with me for saying North would win between 2-4 games of the first 10 in response to a new account poster who was clearly trolling.

I don't care about the other poster, I responded to you. It seems however that you are more interested in deflecting than having an actual discussion.

North won 2 games of the first 10 last season, my statement wasn't in any way controversial or even arguing whether North would or wouldn't finish bottom. For all we know 17th might have 6 or 7 wins next season and winning 6 games might not even guarantee 17th or higher. You have taken a completely reasonable comment and gone on some crusade.

It might be a reasonable statement if you're able to back it up in any way, shape or form; something you have thus far been reluctant to do.

I wonder why?

 

[Sphynx]

North's round 1 team is likely going to be the weakest KPD pairing in recent history.

Fergus Greene booted 2 goals on Logue in our first game last season. They don't even have the 'luxury' of playing Logue.

It will be interesting to assess the value of having our best player on the park and uninjured (hopefully for the majority of the year this time)

We were a different side with LDU fit in the first few rounds and it took till around Rnd 16 for him to be match fit again.

There's some natural improvement that some are keen to overlook.

 

[SSSSSS]

It will be interesting to assess the value of having our best player on the park and uninjured (hopefully for the majority of the year this time)

We were a different side with LDU fit in the first few rounds and it took till around Rnd 16 for him to be match fit again.

There's some natural improvement that some are keen to overlook.

We were a shambles until Lewis came back and straightened us up.

Who would have thought that having good players on the oval made a difference eh?

 

[eth-dog]

You rate Frost and Blanck as individual players substantially higher than Corr?

Why?

He's seen Corr play football.

 

[Coach_Required]

Bottom 6 won't change too much except I reckon West Coast & North win a few more games.

 

[Makeshift Park]

I think Frost and Blanck are on the same level as Corr at least as a KPD (Blanck has some scope for growth at least). Corr is better suited as a 3rd tall but likely won't have that luxury in 2024 (tbh so is Frosty).

Where Hawthorn pulls miles ahead of North is our small/medium sized defenders. Hardwick, Sicily, Weddle, CJ, Scrimshaw etc is miles better than what North can muster. A decent team defense can cover some holes. We have some pretty big holes though and so do North.

Eagles at least have Barrass and McGovern. If the latter is fit they have the best KPD pairing of the three sides. McGovern hasn't been fit for a while though.

Miles better?

Your backline was better in 2023, but overall, Sicily is really the key difference maker between our medium defender stocks.

On proven form, Sheezel is a better player than any of the others you've listed.

If McKercher comes close to fulfilling his promise as half back, I don't foresee a massive discrepancy between the net quality of our young medium defenders.