Banter Who will be better in 2024? Carlton or Collingwood? Part 2

[Fadge]

The context behind injuries is crucial and it was explored when Carlton had a significant amount of them - so no one was just using quantity of injuries. And yet all of that was ignored and all we got was the shallow "35 players in your best 23" and "FoGOAT" responses.

There was no FoGOAT.

There was, however, 'The Cavalry'.

 

[Robertio]

You're really doing well at making posts more stupid and nonsensical than the last, so I'm at least going to wait this out and see what you can come up with next.

Whatever you say on here about Carlton and what we say about injuries is your opinion only, it's fine to give your opinion but if you don't listen to our opinions of which we would know more about then you will always find trouble so don't carry on like a school kid when you get into trouble.

 

[Mr Meow]

Carlton fans have pointed out why those players that were out were so important to the way we have played. You don't win games with your top 5 - if so this Carlton team would be 3 time Grand finalists by now.

The context behind injuries is crucial and it was explored when Carlton had a significant amount of them - so no one was just using quantity of injuries. And yet all of that was ignored and all we got was the shallow "35 players in your best 23" and "FoGOAT" responses.

It also gets even more confusing when Marchbank/Cunningham were listed (but don't seem to play unless there are actual best 22 players missing), Motlop and Martin are currently in the magoos etc. Pittonet - best 22 or not? Fantasia? That's the trouble with more peripheral players. Form lines alone can send them from AFL to VFL standard. Martin's body seems so fragile that it's hard to consider him a real player.

 

[Mr Meow]

Whatever you say on here about Carlton and what we say about injuries is your opinion only, it's fine to give your opinion but if you don't listen to our opinions of which we would know more about then you will always find trouble so don't carry on like a school kid when you get into trouble.

I am well aware that my opinion is only my opinion and your opinion is only your opinion, and that in fact everyone's opinions on here are only their opinions.

"Get into trouble" = respectfully offer counter points, unless ridiculed or mocked as "BIASED!!!" (insert yawn GIF) then it descends into the type of s**t flinging that I guess you guys enjoy in here.

 

[Robertio]

You come across as very biased, nothing wrong with that but don't call yourself a neutral supporter because you never have been in this thread.

 

[Mr Meow]

You come across as very biased, nothing wrong with that but don't call yourself a neutral supporter because you never have been in this thread.

Lazy, inaccurate analysis but it's fine if this is what you need to tell yourself when opinions differ to yours.

 

[carlton_99]

It also gets even more confusing when Marchbank/Cunningham were listed (but don't seem to play unless there are actual best 22 players missing), Motlop and Martin are currently in the magoos etc. Pittonet - best 22 or not? Fantasia? That's the trouble with more peripheral players. Form lines alone can send them from AFL to VFL standard. Martin's body seems so fragile that it's hard to consider him a real player.

A best 23 is subjective - every fan will have a slightly different one.

 

[Sector 7G]

Docherty is a good player, but a 3rd ACL for someone in their 30s brings question marks. Especially when we are talking about season 2024.

Once Guthrie started getting injuries late in his career, he was playing the worst football of his life (when he could even get on the park), right after being AA in 2022.

I do hope Docherty gets a good run at it though.

That is the problem for the pies is 9 players in their 30s. Cox, Elliot, Mitchell, Pendels and Mioheck are all old. The chances of getting fully season out of them is low. Given the age profile they got injuries in 21, were lucky in 22/23 and now have injuries again. Combine that with only 1 A grade/potential A grader under 24 and about 5 mature rookies on the list and they are battling.

Looks like the 30yr olds are all going on again next year so they will be hoping for an injury free year.

 

[Mr Meow]

About injuries and how they were hammed up by Carlton supporters:

Round 7: "This despite missing 11 of our best team"

Saad, McGovern and Cerra were good players missing, albeit players below the Big Five. Doch too, but out for the season and with a 3rd ACL he's in the Murphy category until he proves otherwise.

Fog a solid depth player.

Martin, Motlop, Marchbank, Fantasia and Cunningham played in the VFL on the weekend. These were the names being reeled off.

JSOS would have to be considered fringe - whose spot does he take if everybody is available?

So in reality "missing half of our team" was actually missing 3 good players, a solid depth player and potentially a valuable veteran (depending on what player he returns as after such a big injury this late in his career). More than manageable for a side with 5x AA level superstars and a handful more that are pushing for AA squad inclusion (Acres, Newman, TDK etc).

Yet the carry on was as if this was the greatest injury list ever seen.

 

[Mr Meow]

That is the problem for the pies is 9 players in their 30s. Cox, Elliot, Mitchell, Pendels and Mioheck are all old. The chances of getting fully season out of them is low. Given the age profile they got injuries in 21, were lucky in 22/23 and now have injuries again. Combine that with only 1 A grade/potential A grader under 24 and about 5 mature rookies on the list and they are battling.

Looks like the 30yr olds are all going on again next year so they will be hoping for an injury free year.

On that point I do agree, although it will still vary season to season (Geelong's over 30s had a bad run in 2023 but good runs in 2022/2024).

 

[Mr Meow]

A best 23 is subjective - every fan will have a slightly different one.

Well it wasn't subjective at the time as the narrative was absolutely 10 or 11 best 23 players missing.

Right now it looks like it was 4 or 5, then a few who could be in contention but not a discernible level below the ones in their place.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

That is the problem for the pies is 9 players in their 30s. Cox, Elliot, Mitchell, Pendels and Mioheck are all old. The chances of getting fully season out of them is low. Given the age profile they got injuries in 21, were lucky in 22/23 and now have injuries again. Combine that with only 1 A grade/potential A grader under 24 and about 5 mature rookies on the list and they are battling.

Looks like the 30yr olds are all going on again next year so they will be hoping for an injury free year.

The Dirty Birds aren’t approaching an age cliff, they’ve hang-glided off the edge!

 

[carlton_99]

Well it wasn't subjective at the time as the narrative was absolutely 10 or 11 best 23 players missing.

Right now it looks like it was 4 or 5, then a few who could be in contention but not a discernible level below the ones in their place.

I remember saying 7-8 from memory not 10 or 11 but regardless it is subjective. If I say 7-8 I am talking for myself not for other people.

And just because those players aren't currently in the team it doesn't mean they weren't best 23 at the time. No one saw Cincotta and Cowan coming in and taking a spot. No one saw Williams becoming our best small forward taking up a spot in that line. Elijah Hollands was new and was probably borderline best 22 early on and is now a lock. All of this makes it harder for some players returning from injury to come straight back in.

For instance, I still have Motlop in my best team even though he hasn't been able to get back in yet - however I think that changes this week (I hope)

 

[Mr Meow]

I remember saying 7-8 from memory not 10 or 11 but regardless it is subjective. If I say 7-8 I am talking for myself not for other people.

And just because those players aren't currently in the team it doesn't mean they weren't best 23 at the time. No one saw Cincotta and Cowan coming in and taking a spot. No one saw Williams becoming our best small forward taking up a spot in that line. Elijah Hollands was new and was probably borderline best 22 early on and is now a lock. All of this makes it harder for some players returning from injury to come straight back in.

For instance, I still have Motlop in my best team even though he hasn't been able to get back in yet - however I think that changes this week (I hope)

I have no doubt people at the time exaggerated the number to be more than they actually believed (CCurnow3votes was the quote in question but many were going with it; at least 10) for extra effect. And Carlton's role players at the time - who people said would make way - were largely playing well enough. Young and Durdin were the two that stood out as needing to go, then of course whichever spare defender and midfielder that Saad/Cerra would come in for.

I actually said at the time that yes, some inclusions would help but also it would be down to Voss to tinker and refine things with the players he had. I was confident he would do so, and thus it played out. Williams move being one of them, backing in Hollands was another. There are still some remaining weaknesses (scores against from stoppage) that I said personnel wouldn't change, and it really hasn't.

You're right, Motlop probably does end up back in, the point back then was merely that a bunch of these players were not automatic inclusions/game changers. The rebuttal was that the 18th-23rd picked players can dramatically effect how the rest of the team plays with the flow on effect it has, but in reality Carlton are a team with an outstanding top 10 or 12 - as long as most of them are on the park (more than 3 I'd say is a tipping point), they can basically cover a few depth players not being available.

 

[Robertio]

About injuries and how they were hammed up by Carlton supporters:

Round 7: "This despite missing 11 of our best team"

Saad, McGovern and Cerra were good players missing, albeit players below the Big Five. Doch too, but out for the season and with a 3rd ACL he's in the Murphy category until he proves otherwise.

Fog a solid depth player.

Martin, Motlop, Marchbank, Fantasia and Cunningham played in the VFL on the weekend. These were the names being reeled off.

JSOS would have to be considered fringe - whose spot does he take if everybody is available?

So in reality "missing half of our team" was actually missing 3 good players, a solid depth player and potentially a valuable veteran (depending on what player he returns as after such a big injury this late in his career). More than manageable for a side with 5x AA level superstars and a handful more that are pushing for AA squad inclusion (Acres, Newman, TDK etc).

Yet the carry on was as if this was the greatest injury list ever seen.

Quote where someone said it was the greatest injury list ever or is that just your opinion.

 

[Mr Meow]

Quote where someone said it was the greatest injury list ever or is that just your opinion.

Did I say it was a quote? I said the carry on made it seem so. You only need to go back to the Geelong/Carlton Round 7 autopsy thread, then instead of one quote you can read 20 pages on it.

 

[Robertio]

Well it wasn't subjective at the time as the narrative was absolutely 10 or 11 best 23 players missing.

Right now it looks like it was 4 or 5, then a few who could be in contention but not a discernible level below the ones in their place.

Give it a rest mate.

 

[Robertio]

If you want to boss someone around, look closer to home. If you can't handle discussion, perhaps simply avoid replying.

Mate you're talking rubbish and when asked for a quote or to back up what you're saying you have nothing.

 

[Robertio]

You can't be so unintelligent to think that "they carried on as if it was the greatest injury list ever seen" meant I was referring to a quote that said "This is the greatest injury list ever seen"? Come on mate, you aren't that dense. Help me out here.

Mate notice that I've avoided all your insults proves that one of us is here for the right reasons.

 

[Fadge]

Hardest draw in the comp so far based on opposition ladder positions at the start the Round the game was played...

Oh no.

I've done some 'analysis' on this famous table that Carlton supporters are referencing to 'prove' they've had the hardest draw in 2024....

For all the teams who played in Opening Round, their first two matches didn't happen.

So Carlton's games against Brisbane (who couldn't beat anyone at the time) and likely wooden spooners Richmond didn't contribute to the calculation.

Likewise, Collingwood's games against GWS in Sydney, and likely minor premiers Sydney, didn't contribute to the calculation. Both teams were ranked #1 for Carlton when they played them a few weeks later.

In further proof of the amateur nature of the 'data', the calculations are actually WRONG....

The table appears to use a divisor of 16 for all teams, on the basis each team has 16 matches contributing to the calculation. However, the teams that played in Opening Round all have an additional bye, meaning the divisor for those teams should be 15.

Boy oh boy wowee.

 

[Mr Meow]

Mate notice that I've avoided all your insults proves that one of us is here for the right reasons.

The right reasons being:

"YOU COULD ONLY SAY THAT IF YOU'RE BIASED!!!"

and

"Leave now, I've had enough"

and

"Find me a quote, mate. If you can't find a quote then you are wrong" (I did find a quote detailing the "missing 11" anyway).

 

[Robertio]

The right reasons being:

"YOU COULD ONLY SAY THAT IF YOU'RE BIASED!!!"

and

"Leave now, I've had enough"

and

"Find me a quote, mate. If you can't find a quote then you are wrong" (I did find a quote detailing the "missing 11" anyway).

Let's see the quote.

 

[carlton_99]

Oh no.

I've done some 'analysis' on this famous table that Carlton supporters are referencing to 'prove' they've had the hardest draw in 2024....

For all the teams who played in Opening Round, their first two matches didn't happen.

So Carlton's games against Brisbane (who couldn't beat anyone at the time) and likely wooden spooners Richmond didn't contribute to the calculation.

Likewise, Collingwood's games against GWS in Sydney, and likely minor premiers Sydney, didn't contribute to the calculation. Both teams were ranked #1 for Carlton when they played them a few weeks later.

In further proof of the amateur nature of the 'data', the calculations are actually WRONG....

The table appears to use a divisor of 16 for all teams, on the basis each team has 16 matches contributing to the calculation. However, the teams that played in Opening Round all have an additional bye, meaning the divisor for those teams should be 15.

Boy oh boy wowee.

The OR/RD1 thing I have mentioned in the past. There was no ladder at the beginning of OR and at the start of Round 1 some teams had not played and were ranked alphabetically. So that is why it starts at Round 2.

The division thing is wrong - I didn't notice that before. So Carlton's average should be 7.25 (still the lowest) not 6.8 and all of the other OR teams would increase their average a bit. Don't think it would change the ranking a whole lot but - maybe some very small changes.

 

[Mr Meow]

Let's see the quote.

The 4th good reason for being here, according to Robertio

"NOW GET THAT DAMN QUOTE!"

Autopsy - AFL 2024 Round 7 - Cats v Blues Sat April 27th 4:35pm AEST (MCG)

What excuse? Someone asked which players would come in and who would go out and I replied with my own opinion. Secondly, on our outs it doesn't matter if you don't see the upside. Cerra alone is significant because he balances out the midfield - we were running Cripps/Hewett/Kennedy CBAs at...

www.bigfooty.com

Post #1231 with the 11x best 22 players missing. Right now it looks like it was 4, with a question mark on whether Docherty returns fully functional to make it 5 (next year?). Cerra, McGovern, Saad and Fogarty. Good players, but there have been much worse injury situations throughout the league this year and every year. Carlton were still a strong team with Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Weithering, Newman, Acres, TDK, Pittonet and a bunch of solid role players available. It wasn't that bad.

 

[Robertio]

The 4th good reason for being here, according to Robertio

"NOW GET THAT DAMN QUOTE!"

Autopsy - AFL 2024 Round 7 - Cats v Blues Sat April 27th 4:35pm AEST (MCG)

What excuse? Someone asked which players would come in and who would go out and I replied with my own opinion. Secondly, on our outs it doesn't matter if you don't see the upside. Cerra alone is significant because he balances out the midfield - we were running Cripps/Hewett/Kennedy CBAs at...

www.bigfooty.com

Post #1231 with the 11x best 22 players missing. Right now it looks like it was 4, with a question mark on whether Docherty returns fully functional to make it 5 (next year?). Cerra, McGovern, Saad and Fogarty. Good players, but there have been much worse injury situations throughout the league this year and every year. Carlton were still a strong team with Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Newman, Acres, TDK, Pittonet and a bunch of solid role players available. It wasn't that bad.

Mate in his opinion and mine they are all best 22 players, he never said champion players he said best 22 players, why aren't you quoting any of the Pie supporters using injuries as an excuse?