Analysis Why are we s**t?

[Ambrosia]

I'm just not convinced the people at the top have any idea what the overall make up of a successful team is both on and off the field.

Just off the top of my head:

We went out and recruited Jake Kelly a backman who can't kick whilst the good sides priorities ball use in the back half above almost anything unless you're a Sam Collins level stopper. We tried to play Guelfi behind the ball as well which was never going to work.

The continual selection of Nik Cox this year despite him showing no ability to stay in the game mentally for 4 quarters and getting torn up by his opponent on the wing.

Not being willing to punt on the Archie Perkins midfield experiment after it was clearly.

Darcy Parish 6 years. People rightfully complain about his ability to stay in the game defensively and his lack of size in the midfield but all of this is secondary while he is such a kick chaser that he regularly demands a handball receive to just blindly hack the ball forward to the opposition.

Davey twins, Wanganeen, the two academy talls - are we just picking these guys because we can? None of have looked remotely close to quality AFL players.

 

[faible]

I'm just not convinced the people at the top have any idea what the overall make up of a successful team is both on and off the field.

Just off the top of my head:

We went out and recruited Jake Kelly a backman who can't kick whilst the good sides priorities ball use in the back half above almost anything unless you're a Sam Collins level stopper. We tried to play Guelfi behind the ball as well which was never going to work.

The continual selection of Nik Cox this year despite him showing no ability to stay in the game mentally for 4 quarters and getting torn up by his opponent on the wing.

Not being willing to punt on the Archie Perkins midfield experiment after it was clearly.

Darcy Parish 6 years. People rightfully complain about his ability to stay in the game defensively and his lack of size in the midfield but all of this is secondary while he is such a kick chaser that he regularly demands a handball receive to just blindly hack the ball forward to the opposition.

Davey twins, Wanganeen, the two academy talls - are we just picking these guys because we can? None of have looked remotely close to quality AFL players.

Coaches get pilloried for picking those young guys that aren't AFL ready and we look shit. Coaches get pillored for not picking those young guys to get them experience ASAP.

There's no real way to win, and as a supporter you're seeing a small portion of what the coaches see regarding selection.

 

[Donflicted]

Stagger it. Like a draft, you don't add an entire list in one or two years, it's 3-5.

You move out 2-3 of these senior/obsolete players per year, retaining some older bodies and ideally some useful experience.

Essendon's lacking in that which is why I don't mind them bringing in some other solid older players from older clubs as they go. Bring in McKay and Duursma as you move out Heppell and Parish, whilst drafting young players that are driven and willing to actually defend.

You do that over a few years, rather than retaining them to the point that they've not only lost all trade value but they've passed on their shitty culture, and they've kept a younger player out of the team.

100% agree

 

[ant555]

I'm just not convinced the people at the top have any idea what the overall make up of a successful team is both on and off the field.

Just off the top of my head:

We went out and recruited Jake Kelly a backman who can't kick whilst the good sides priorities ball use in the back half above almost anything unless you're a Sam Collins level stopper. We tried to play Guelfi behind the ball as well which was never going to work.

The continual selection of Nik Cox this year despite him showing no ability to stay in the game mentally for 4 quarters and getting torn up by his opponent on the wing.

Not being willing to punt on the Archie Perkins midfield experiment after it was clearly.

Darcy Parish 6 years. People rightfully complain about his ability to stay in the game defensively and his lack of size in the midfield but all of this is secondary while he is such a kick chaser that he regularly demands a handball receive to just blindly hack the ball forward to the opposition.

Davey twins, Wanganeen, the two academy talls - are we just picking these guys because we can? None of have looked remotely close to quality AFL players.

Kelly was fine as a back pocket. The problem was our half backs were also average. Not everyone in the back 6 has to shoot the lights out.
Went down hill this year but he did a good job on the small forwards and he played team football.

 

[faible]

Kelly was fine as a back pocket. The problem was our half backs were also average. Not everyone in the back 6 has to shoot the lights out.
Went down hill this year but he did a good job on the small forwards and he played team football.

Didn't we get Kelly after Weightman kicked 4 on us in that EF? Since then Rutten has been moved on, McGrath has gone back, and Kelly has been concussed and now retired.

 

[Ambrosia]

Coaches get pilloried for picking those young guys that aren't AFL ready and we look shit. Coaches get pillored for not picking those young guys to get them experience ASAP.

There's no real way to win, and as a supporter you're seeing a small portion of what the coaches see regarding selection.

Think this is massively overblown.

Stale selection was massive criticism of Scott by North supporters whilst he was there. The man dragged Kayne Turner to 100 games FFS.

I'm not writing Scott off there was an extended period this year where we actually looked somewhat competent but there has never been a period at Essendon where we've had the list management and coaching staff be on the same page.

Kelly was fine as a back pocket. The problem was our half backs were also average. Not everyone in the back 6 has to shoot the lights out.
Went down hill this year but he did a good job on the small forwards and he played team football.

Adding another at best average player with clear deficiencies via free agency then saying it didn't work because other average players with deficiencies coudn't make up for it is maddness.

 

[Yoda_]

I'm just not convinced the people at the top have any idea what the overall make up of a successful team is both on and off the field.

Just off the top of my head:

We went out and recruited Jake Kelly a backman who can't kick whilst the good sides priorities ball use in the back half above almost anything unless you're a Sam Collins level stopper. We tried to play Guelfi behind the ball as well which was never going to work.

The continual selection of Nik Cox this year despite him showing no ability to stay in the game mentally for 4 quarters and getting torn up by his opponent on the wing.

Not being willing to punt on the Archie Perkins midfield experiment after it was clearly.

Darcy Parish 6 years. People rightfully complain about his ability to stay in the game defensively and his lack of size in the midfield but all of this is secondary while he is such a kick chaser that he regularly demands a handball receive to just blindly hack the ball forward to the opposition.

Davey twins, Wanganeen, the two academy talls - are we just picking these guys because we can? None of have looked remotely close to quality AFL players.

I was thinking something similarly the other day. Dodoro's inability to not be seen as a "loss" has quite clearly jeopardised the list and its make up. No clear and distinct plan in conjunction with the many coaches he has had to (try) work alongside shows the inability to make change for the betterment of the club.

 

[faible]

Think this is massively overblown.

Stale selection was massive criticism of Scott by North supporters whilst he was there. The man dragged Kayne Turner to 100 games FFS.

I'm not writing Scott off there was an extended period this year where we actually looked somewhat competent but there has never been a period at Essendon where we've had the list management and coaching staff be on the same page.



Adding another at best average player with clear deficiencies via free agency then saying it didn't work because other average players with deficiencies coudn't make up for it is maddness.

Scott can only pick what he's got available, as supporters we look at the form we see on game-day, largely from an uninformed position regarding any kind of tactical or strategic knowledge.

We don't know who's following team instructions getting shit stats or who's ignoring them to go kick chasing and pad the stat sheet. We don't know who's actually working their ass off doing what the coach wants them to do even if it's ugly and doesn't get a mark on the stats sheet, or who's picking and choosing when they go or don't go based on what looks good.

 

[Yoda_]

Who was the last absolutely elite character or AFL trait we rookie listed?

Im talking Lauchlan Dalgleish

Lauchlan Dalgleish

Age

31

Ht

185cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.0

4star

K

10.3

4star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.7

4star

T

0.7

3star

No current season stats available

D

14.0

4star

K

10.3

4star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.7

5star

T

0.7

3star

pace, not a mid season rookie, or a pre season selection but a genuine elite rookie listed player?

 

[Ambrosia]

Scott can only pick what he's got available, as supporters we look at the form we see on game-day, largely from an uninformed position regarding any kind of tactical or strategic knowledge.

We don't know who's following team instructions getting shit stats or who's ignoring them to go kick chasing and pad the stat sheet. We don't know who's actually working their ass off doing what the coach wants them to do even if it's ugly and doesn't get a mark on the stats sheet, or who's picking and choosing when they go or don't go based on what looks good.

If we limited ourselves to only having fully informed opinions on here there wouldn't be a whole lot to discuss on this forum....

 

[faible]

Who was the last absolutely elite character or AFL trait we rookie listed?

Im talking Lauchlan Dalgleish pace, not a mid season rookie, or a pre season selection but a genuine elite rookie listed player?

Tom Jok was a pretty exceptional athlete wasn't he? Yestin Eades had elite speed from memory, Gach Nyuon had a good athletic profile,

Then we have guys like McKenna, Draper & Ambrose who were all rookie picks that worked out.

Vistentini looks promising.

Always hard to get a read, do you use your rookie picks to take boom or bust types like your Draper or Nyuon's that will need a lot of time, or for guys that are limited but might be able to impact in the shorter term?

 

[Yoda_]

Tom Jok was a pretty exceptional athlete wasn't he? Yestin Eades had elite speed from memory, Gach Nyuon had a good athletic profile,

Then we have guys like McKenna, Draper & Ambrose who were all rookie picks that worked out.

Vistentini looks promising.

Always hard to get a read, do you use your rookie picks to take boom or bust types like your Draper or Nyuon's that will need a lot of time, or for guys that are limited but might be able to impact in the shorter term?

I feel like we have gone more certainties than boom or bust types, hence our success rates with mature agers over the years

 

[jmoo wan]

Tom Jok was a pretty exceptional athlete wasn't he? Yestin Eades had elite speed from memory, Gach Nyuon had a good athletic profile,

Then we have guys like McKenna, Draper & Ambrose who were all rookie picks that worked out.

Vistentini looks promising.

Always hard to get a read, do you use your rookie picks to take boom or bust types like your Draper or Nyuon's that will need a lot of time, or for guys that are limited but might be able to impact in the shorter term?

sounds like we can add systemic racism to the clubs list of problems

 

[ant555]

Didn't we get Kelly after Weightman kicked 4 on us in that EF? Since then Rutten has been moved on, McGrath has gone back, and Kelly has been concussed and now retired.

Something like that.

 

[ant555]

Adding another at best average player with clear deficiencies via free agency then saying it didn't work because other average players with deficiencies coudn't make up for it is maddness.

We needed a small defender. I know we will never agree as I know you have been anti Kelly since the very start. He was a bloke that played team footy. Was a good defender. Despite the fact you say he could not kick he actually kicked at over 70% efficiency his whole career and in the 80% elite range for a few years. His kicking issue was he stayed in his lane and often missed some fast footy opportunities. He was also hard t the footy until he got knocked out last year. Since then his form went backwards. He is exactly the type of player you bring in on the cheap for a few years to plug a gap. The madness is how easily people let off the top end of the list.

 

[BrunoV]

Who was the last absolutely elite character or AFL trait we rookie listed?

Im talking Lauchlan Dalgleish pace, not a mid season rookie, or a pre season selection but a genuine elite rookie listed player?

D'Ambrosio's kicking.

 

[ant555]

D'Ambrosio's kicking.

He was a mid season. The question was rookie listed.

 

[Old Campaigner]

If we limited ourselves to only having fully informed opinions on here there wouldn't be a whole lot to discuss on this forum....

That might be an improvement...

 

[Mootsy]

i've seen more than enough quality content from herbatron for a 10 DVD boxset with subscription included..

 

[BrunoV]

I'm just not convinced the people at the top have any idea what the overall make up of a successful team is both on and off the field.

This is it. I do not think that the winning culture issue for Essendon applies to the playing group anywhere near as much as it operates at level of the board and the executive. No Essendon person who is at Essendon right now acts like he or she has any idea of what a good team looks like. The times we have brought in outsiders who, at least in theory, knew what it would take, the club bucked and didn't listen. Whether it is the scenario that upset Worsfold or not really listening to Richardson or Mahoney before making their positions untenable. In this regard, Dodoro is pivotal because he has been the single most likely figure responsible for ingraining the cluelessness.

Contrast with Hawthorn which is never more than few years from getting out of its own way as it appoints someone with fresh ideas who brings the whole club with him. I do not see Hawthorn as being a particularly well run operation which has built on success in the way that Geelong and Sydney have machine-like operations. Hawthorn was nowhere, facing a years long rebuild, by the standards of conventional commentary, 3 to 4 years ago because succession planning and entrenching the culture of success via the playing group was a pretty resounding failure by the end of the Clarkson era. But at the point at which a club like Essendon ends up being pulled under but the weight of its view of itself, Hawthorn always seems to have this ability to do a complete reset. My suspicion is that it traces back to Kennedy and a team ethos he built by mimicking the armed forces (where there are no stars, just numbers). A lot is made of the drafts that delivered Buddy, Mitchell, Hodge and Roughead but without Clarko inventing zone defence, built on more than half a team of role players, they don't get close in 2008, do they? And Clarkson was the outsider with no profile when appointed at a time when the alternatives were former Hawthorn premiership players. Maybe some of the team focus was forced or re-emphasized with the loss of Buddy and the need to replace his star power with team output.

We're, obviously, seeing it again with Mitchell now. A side built on ideas rather than draft picks which has an output much greater than the sum of its parts. Contrast this with the number of times you have heard or read an Essendon person talk about how good the list (of individuals) is in the last 12 years.

I've been meaning to respond to ant555, on this issue in relation to the Hawks, but have not really gotten around to it. So this will have to stand for now.

 

[crackers65]

Tom Jok was a pretty exceptional athlete wasn't he? Yestin Eades had elite speed from memory, Gach Nyuon had a good athletic profile

Non of them were any good at playing footy though.

 

[hurlygurdy]

I'm just not convinced the people at the top have any idea what the overall make up of a successful team is both on and off the field.

Just off the top of my head:

We went out and recruited Jake Kelly a backman who can't kick whilst the good sides priorities ball use in the back half above almost anything unless you're a Sam Collins level stopper. We tried to play Guelfi behind the ball as well which was never going to work.

The continual selection of Nik Cox this year despite him showing no ability to stay in the game mentally for 4 quarters and getting torn up by his opponent on the wing.

Not being willing to punt on the Archie Perkins midfield experiment after it was clearly.

Darcy Parish 6 years. People rightfully complain about his ability to stay in the game defensively and his lack of size in the midfield but all of this is secondary while he is such a kick chaser that he regularly demands a handball receive to just blindly hack the ball forward to the opposition.

Davey twins, Wanganeen, the two academy talls - are we just picking these guys because we can? None of have looked remotely close to quality AFL players.

Jake Kelly a great recruit. Wouldn't have wanted him holding a good kid out of that spot, but he wasn't.

Would have been filthy if we hadn't played Cox as much as we did. Absolutely zero to gain not playing him. Physically you can see he's not there yet and that he's a slow burn given his height, but this year gave us more information on him that will be used in putting together his pre season.

Not sure what you are saying about Archie but i'm once again glad we prioritised his development over results. If there was no room up forward then he needed to be played midfield. Good call for another developing 22 year old.

Parish has a fair amount to prove its true.

Davey is 20 years old and i'm backing him to break out next season. But yeah sure, lets not play him

One of the good things about this past season was that we didn't particularly sacrifice player development in the chase for finals. Kudos to Scott

 

[crackers65]

We didn’t need to sacrifice player development in the chase for finals. Blind Freddie could see that a lot of our younger players are no good. If Wanganeen and the Davey’s were Smith and Jones would they even get a look in? Cox, Perkins, Jones etc only got games because there was really no one else.

 

[hurlygurdy]

We didn’t need to sacrifice player development in the chase for finals. Blind Freddie could see that a lot of our younger players are no good. If Wanganeen and the Davey’s were Smith and Jones would they even get a look in? Cox, Perkins, Jones etc only got games because there was really no one else.

Out of the players you just named there isn’t much doubt that at least a couple will make it. Normal development happening normally. No different from any other club any other year. Except this year right now, some supporters want a witch hunt to ease the pain.

 

[Call Me Cake]

It's people having unrealistic expectations on the youth by projecting the last 20 years on them like it's their fault.