Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Malifice]

I've never said, suggested or alluded these aren't problems, how many times do I to state this before everyone who makes this claim about me actually reads my posts?

I'm talking about the scale! Not that it's not a problem.

Problem fringe groups are not societal threats. Yes they're a problem, but let's not pretend the world is ending tomorrow.

IF these groups were the majority of society, then we would see Armageddon, but we don't, because they're minority groups.

yet, everyone gets defensive and give the impression Armageddon is going on.

Same as those on here who allude that islam is some sort of bogeyman and is gonna take over our way of life.

You or anyone else are welcome to call it 'diminishing ' or that I'm the 'problem ', just as much as I can call out the ridiculous assertion that neo nazis live on every street corner, or every pom is out to get any poc.

But nah I'm the loony here.

Mate, people have always (and I mean always) hated on the new group to arrive.

In the Australian context, it was the Irish copping it first, then the Asians (mainly Chinese) then the Eastern/ Southern Europeans (who we charmingly called a word beginning with 'W') then the Asians (again), then the Muslims, then (currently) the Africans.

It's human nature to be shitcampaigners.

 

[Malifice]

If hats and skullcaps are head wear from other religions then Yes, ban them

So you think the government should legislate to literally criminalize religious garments including hats?

Jesus mate. That's tapped.

 

[skipper kelly]

So you think the government should legislate to literally criminalize religious garments including hats?

Jesus mate. That's tapped.

No. Never said that.

Again, now please read what the question was "If we gonna ban the burqa, should we ban head wear from other religions?"

Yes means. if the burqa is banned then all religious head wear gets banned. Seems fair. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

No. means only the burqa gets banned.

 

[Malifice]

No. Never said that.

Ok then, do you think the Burqua should be banned?

You've said that if 'Yes' then so should other religious/ cultural attire be banned.

So should it be banned, Yes or No?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Mate, people have always (and I mean always) hated on the new group to arrive.

In the Australian context, it was the Irish copping it first, then the Asians (mainly Chinese) then the Eastern/ Southern Europeans (who we charmingly called a word beginning with 'W') then the Asians (again), then the Muslims, then (currently) the Africans.

It's human nature to be shitcampaigners.

From personal experience of living in society I can't agree this is wide spread sentiment.

This is a pessimistic view of human kind, you're not alone.

Call me naive but if your claim were true then society would be much much worse.

 

[skipper kelly]

Ok then, do you think the Burqua should be banned?

You've said that if 'Yes' then so should other religious/ cultural attire be banned.

So should it be banned, Yes or No?

Don't care. Haven't thought about it but if you really need my answer then tell me and I will contemplate it for a few days/weeks and get back to you.

But if one religious headwear is banned then I support banning all. Seems fair from where I sit.

 

[10571z]

But isn't Western culture based on some old books from the Middle East?

Is the burqa part of western culture? No…

There you go.

 

[10571z]

Should gorilla masks be banned?
I don't normally wear one, but i like to think i could if i wanted to.

If there was a sub culture of people who wore them day in and out then yes…

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Is the burqa part of western culture? No…

There you go.

Some of the central characteristics of Western culture include: Democracy. Rational thinking. Individualism.

So yes, the burqa is certainly part of that.

Being scared of the burqa isn't rational. You should reflect on that.

 

[evolved2]

Mate, people have always (and I mean always) hated on the new group to arrive.

In the Australian context, it was the Irish copping it first, then the Asians (mainly Chinese) then the Eastern/ Southern Europeans (who we charmingly called a word beginning with 'W') then the Asians (again), then the Muslims, then (currently) the Africans.

It's human nature to be shitcampaigners.

One of those is not like the others.

 

[Malifice]

From personal experience of living in society I can't agree this is wide spread sentiment.

Name a single time and society in history where a new migrant group from a different country/ culture have arrived in numbers and not been subject to what I described above.

Just one will do.

I'll wait.

 

[Gethelred]

How many non-Muslim women choose to wear a burqa? Do you think all women and girls wearing a burqa or hijab choose to?

Yes I'm aware.

Would you be happy, neutral or sad if one of the women in your life - a friend, family, etc, converted to Islam and chose to wear a burqa?

It would depend entirely on how she felt about it.

 

[Malifice]

One of those is not like the others.

The Asians. They copped it twice.

 

[evolved2]

It would depend entirely on how she felt about it.

Interesting response.

While I could respect the choice and keep my mouth shut, I couldn't possibly see wearing a burqa as a positive life choice. Much like if they became a MAGA fan, took up smoking, or became a fundie Christian.

 

[ZEV]

Some of the central characteristics of Western culture include: Democracy. Rational thinking. Individualism.

So yes, the burqa is certainly part of that.

Being scared of the burqa isn't rational. You should reflect on that.

It pains me to say it but Ghosty is right on this one.

The first time my 3 year old son saw a burqa he said it was a monster. When we explained it was clothes for religion he was fine and understood.

As adults in Australia it can be a culture shock and easy to jump to the conclusion of oppression etc. Just remember there is a person under there and it's their protected choice.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Name a single time and society in history where a new migrant group from a different country/ culture have arrived in numbers and not been subject to what I described above.

Just one will do.

I'll wait.

Never said it doesn't, where we disagree is from experience the bad are the few and the good are the many.

You believe the opposite

You said yourself 'all of them', I explained if your claim were true our society would be much much worse.

You disagree, let's move on.

 

[Total Power]

I’m no fan of religion - Abrahamic ones especially - but I’m even less of a fan of restrictions on freedom of expression and speech. In what world would drawing a cartoon of a warlord "prophet" (who isn't god anyway) deserve riots, shooting and killing people, flag burning etc etc and then calling it religion of peace.

 

[Total Power]

So many of my friends are pissed off about this: bought tickets months in advance.


Three Taylor Swift concerts scheduled to take place in Vienna this week have been canceled following confirmation from Austrian authorities of a planned terrorist attack on the venue. The Ernst-Happel-Stadion, where the concerts were set to occur, has been deemed a potential target, leading to the decision to cancel the events for public safety, as reported by Reuters and confirmed by the concert organizer Barracuda Music on Instagram. Ticket holders will be refunded, as stated by the organizer.

Austrian police have arrested two individuals suspected of plotting the attacks. Director General of Public Security Franz Ruf revealed at a press conference late last night that the investigation uncovered that a 19-year-old Austrian suspect had shown particular interest in Taylor Swift’s concerts. This individual has reportedly pledged allegiance to the terrorist group "Islamic State."

 

[evolved2]

I’m no fan of religion - Abrahamic ones especially - but I’m even less of a fan of restrictions on freedom of expression and speech. In what world would drawing a cartoon of a warlord "prophet" (who isn't god anyway) deserve riots, shooting and killing people, flag burning etc etc and then calling it religion of peace.

Such a dumb thing to get violent over too.

 

[Demons09]

The Burqa should be banned. Ridiculous concept which in no way assimilates to western culture.

The funny part is posters on here reckon Muslim women choose to wear burqas lol.

 

[Gethelred]

Interesting response.

While I could respect the choice and keep my mouth shut, I couldn't possibly see wearing a burqa as a positive life choice. Much like if they became a MAGA fan, took up smoking, or became a fundie Christian.

Funnily enough, I've had a similar chat with my mother. She struggles to avoid pitying women who wear a hijab or burka.

The thing with pity is, it denotes a power relationship; you think you're better than the person you're pitying. In an Australian context, muslim women get to choose to wear the veil or not.

It's also none of my business what women choose to wear. Were this not a religious thing, I'd be surprised you seem to think it's yours.

 

[evolved2]

Funnily enough, I've had a similar chat with my mother. She struggles to avoid pitying women who wear a hijab or burka.

The thing with pity is, it denotes a power relationship; you think you're better than the person you're pitying. In an Australian context, muslim women get to choose to wear the veil or not.

It's also none of my business what women choose to wear. Were this not a religious thing, I'd be surprised you seem to think it's yours.

My religious position is based on logic and science rather than faith - there's no objective evidence for any deities and plenty of opposing evidence so the only logical position is disbelief in gods. I see no reason to respect Islam more than any other irrational belief system including the wackiest conspiracy theories.

Am I better? In the area of forming a logic based religious position, absolutely. That shouldn't be a controversial viewpoint given the way the SRP treats conspiracy theorists or cookers.

What do you think the burqa symbolises? Do you think it's worn for the benefit of women or men?

 

[rank and file]

So many of my friends are pissed off about this: bought tickets months in advance.


Three Taylor Swift concerts scheduled to take place in Vienna this week have been canceled following confirmation from Austrian authorities of a planned terrorist attack on the venue. The Ernst-Happel-Stadion, where the concerts were set to occur, has been deemed a potential target, leading to the decision to cancel the events for public safety, as reported by Reuters and confirmed by the concert organizer Barracuda Music on Instagram. Ticket holders will be refunded, as stated by the organizer.

Austrian police have arrested two individuals suspected of plotting the attacks. Director General of Public Security Franz Ruf revealed at a press conference late last night that the investigation uncovered that a 19-year-old Austrian suspect had shown particular interest in Taylor Swift’s concerts. This individual has reportedly pledged allegiance to the terrorist group "Islamic State."

No!
Somebody has rained on Taylor Swifts parade.
She'll recover but the pushback should be monitored to spot radicals

 

[Gethelred]

My religious position is based on logic and science rather than faith - there's no objective evidence for any deities and plenty of opposing evidence so the only logical position is disbelief in gods. I see no reason to respect Islam more than any other irrational belief system including the wackiest conspiracy theories.

Am I better? In the area of forming a logic based religious position, absolutely. That shouldn't be a controversial viewpoint given the way the SRP treats conspiracy theorists or cookers.

What do you think the burqa symbolises? Do you think it's worn for the benefit of women or men?

When I was in high school, the school took us on an excursion - during RE, of all things - to an Islamic private school so that we could learn about what Muslims believed. We had a number of presentations delivered to us, and one of them was on the burka and was delivered by students who were women.

What it represents to them is modesty, in the same way wearing long skirts and showing no skin also represents modesty. In the same breath, so does wearing a beard and likewise avoiding showing skin represents modesty in a man.

I don't particularly value modesty. It hasn't particularly impacted my life; I've not had a great deal to be modest about as an adult, Evolved.

That's a whole lot of indirect answers, so let's be clear: I don't think the burka is worn for the benefit of the women or men. I think it's an archaic method of societal control, the way all religions prescribe rules upon individuals and over society to ensure group conformity visually; and as with a lot of things, it's a patriarchal construct that cuts both men and women, women more than men.

But that's not my decision to make for the people who were born within a muslim family, culture or context, and nor should it be.

 

[evolved2]

When I was in high school, the school took us on an excursion - during RE, of all things - to an Islamic private school so that we could learn about what Muslims believed. We had a number of presentations delivered to us, and one of them was on the burka and was delivered by students who were women.

What it represents to them is modesty, in the same way wearing long skirts and showing no skin also represents modesty. In the same breath, so does wearing a beard and likewise avoiding showing skin represents modesty in a man.

I don't particularly value modesty. It hasn't particularly impacted my life; I've not had a great deal to be modest about as an adult, Evolved.

That's a whole lot of indirect answers, so let's be clear: I don't think the burka is worn for the benefit of the women or men. I think it's an archaic method of societal control, the way all religions prescribe rules upon individuals and over society to ensure group conformity visually; and as with a lot of things, it's a patriarchal construct that cuts both men and women, women more than men.

But that's not my decision to make for the people who were born within a muslim family, culture or context, and nor should it be.

Having an opinion isn't wrong; a negative opinion of the hijab and burqa isn't telling women what to wear. The burqa symbolises more than modesty to me - it can be enforced as it has been in some societies, or it can be pushed by the culture. Given that women outside of Islam do not wear a burqa, it's fair to conclude that nobody would choose to wear them by free choice without manipulation by archaic patriarchal thinking and practices.

The Qur'an is written completely from one mans perspective. As far as we know, no woman authored a single section of the bible or Qur'an. The books were written at a time and by people groups with values that were diametrically opposed to modern feminism and LGBT rights. There is no god in the books - it's about male control. Calling the burqa just a piece of clothing (as another poster put it) doesn't do it justice.

Many years ago I dated a young Afghan woman refugee. In private, she was as liberated as any woman I've ever met - far wilder than me and in a good way. Yet she was scared shitless of being seen in public with me. Someone within her community could see us and the message would get around.

Many women are not free because of archaic societal expections that persist because of Islam. To say that women are making these choices of their own free volition to live and dress modestly does not fit reality.