List Mgmt. Contracts, trades, draft - 2022 superstar edition

[Keys]

Link to contract status of all players -

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...

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[BeornJ]

Just something that people dont seem to understand is that with an athlete doing all the correct things - the greatest improvement will come in the first 3 years of being on an AFL list with small gains thereafter up until the inevitable decline once your body starts to age.

Basically unless you are seen as an absolute star and have been really hampered by injuries, after a 3 year look (sometimes you can tell afer 1 year or 2) clubs should be moving on these guys who aren't playing (Ainsworth, Brander, Foley, O'Neill) or at least looking a level above in the state leagues.(Waterman, Nelson).

Thinking that player A "hasn't been given a good run" is a fallacy as if he was any good he would have forced his way into a non finals competing team over the last 2 seasons. Much like Bailey Smith forcing his way into a strong doggies midfield as an 18 year old, or Sam Berry at Adelaide (a midfielder) in a fwd pocket, Duggan 2015, O. Allen 2019.

Dixon (23) has done nothing. Clear cut de-listing
Naish (23) played okay in the first half of the year but has flaws and we have better wing options coming through
Foley (23) has played a handful of games but isn't close to good enough for AFL
O'Neill (22) is one of our better WAFL players and slowly improves each year but doesnt make our AFL side any better and doesn't look like he will ever get there.
-West (23) deserves a spot next year based on performances but is hard up against it to be on the list in 5 years time as a first choice on-baller.
Rotham(24) plays and obsessively switches the footy but does little else.

In the same sort of group are Jones & Pettrucelle who have shown glimpses at least and you would take over any of the above.

It would be tough calls to delist a 2nd year player yet there are reasons both ways:
-Trew (20) despite playing games is a non improver but has a case because of injuries. Which in itself are concerning.
-Winder (20) is being shoehorned as a small forward but is better than just that. However is just about the only guy who can't crack a game even when we are playing top up players.
-Edwards (20) seems perma-injured, looks to have composure yet seems likely to be a role player at best.

I agree with your main point but would ad that occasionally it 'clicks' for a player later on, especially with a position/role change.

Eg. Sheppard.

 

[new breed]

FWIW , Will Collins is going great for SD league this season .....Harsh you guys , Harsh !!
Darcy Jones would nearly be P Matera if he was taller !!

 

[Truckosaurus]

If we cut too hard now we'll have to fill a large chunk of next year's list with 18 year olds on two-year contracts, leaving us with an issue of who to cut next year. If the draft is as shallow as watchers are saying, those 18 year olds probably aren't going to be up to standard either. I'd rather have another year of Foley or Winder and cut them next year than be relying on the dregs of this year's draft.

This is list management - it's not just cutting everyone you don't think is going to be a star as soon as you make that decision. You need to think beyond the current offseason when it comes to contracts and the draft.

It's not helped by the AFL leaving it to the last minute to decide on list sizes and the cap either...

 

[briztoon]

Just something that people dont seem to understand is that with an athlete doing all the correct things - the greatest improvement will come in the first 3 years of being on an AFL list with small gains thereafter up until the inevitable decline once your body starts to age.

Basically unless you are seen as an absolute star and have been really hampered by injuries, after a 3 year look (sometimes you can tell afer 1 year or 2) clubs should be moving on these guys who aren't playing (Ainsworth, Brander, Foley, O'Neill) or at least looking a level above in the state leagues.(Waterman, Nelson).

Thinking that player A "hasn't been given a good run" is a fallacy as if he was any good he would have forced his way into a non finals competing team over the last 2 seasons. Much like Bailey Smith forcing his way into a strong doggies midfield as an 18 year old, or Sam Berry at Adelaide (a midfielder) in a fwd pocket, Duggan 2015, O. Allen 2019.

Dixon (23) has done nothing. Clear cut de-listing
Naish (23) played okay in the first half of the year but has flaws and we have better wing options coming through
Foley (23) has played a handful of games but isn't close to good enough for AFL
O'Neill (22) is one of our better WAFL players and slowly improves each year but doesnt make our AFL side any better and doesn't look like he will ever get there.
-West (23) deserves a spot next year based on performances but is hard up against it to be on the list in 5 years time as a first choice on-baller.
Rotham(24) plays and obsessively switches the footy but does little else.

In the same sort of group are Jones & Pettrucelle who have shown glimpses at least and you would take over any of the above.

It would be tough calls to delist a 2nd year player yet there are reasons both ways:
-Trew (20) despite playing games is a non improver but has a case because of injuries. Which in itself are concerning.
-Winder (20) is being shoehorned as a small forward but is better than just that. However is just about the only guy who can't crack a game even when we are playing top up players.
-Edwards (20) seems perma-injured, looks to have composure yet seems likely to be a role player at best.

We (the Lions) tend to give players 4 years to prove themselves.

At the moment, we’ve got a couple players who have been on the list longer (Mathieson & Lester), who are strictly reserves, unless we get hit hard by injuries/covid.

But primarily their job is to set standards in the reserves.

 

[Yeo_Check_Out_ma_Flow]

If we cut too hard now we'll have to fill a large chunk of next year's list with 18 year olds on two-year contracts, leaving us with an issue of who to cut next year. If the draft is as shallow as watchers are saying, those 18 year olds probably aren't going to be up to standard either. I'd rather have another year of Foley or Winder and cut them next year than be relying on the dregs of this year's draft.

This is list management - it's not just cutting everyone you don't think is going to be a star as soon as you make that decision. You need to think beyond the current offseason when it comes to contracts and the draft.

It's not helped by the AFL leaving it to the last minute to decide on list sizes and the cap either...

mmm, oh yeah...talk sense to me baby. I haven't seen much of it on this board lately.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

I agree with your main point but would ad that occasionally it 'clicks' for a player later on, especially with a position/role change.

Eg. Sheppard.

Eg Embley

 

[amazingjoshy]

Just something that people dont seem to understand is that with an athlete doing all the correct things - the greatest improvement will come in the first 3 years of being on an AFL list with small gains thereafter up until the inevitable decline once your body starts to age.

Basically unless you are seen as an absolute star and have been really hampered by injuries, after a 3 year look (sometimes you can tell afer 1 year or 2) clubs should be moving on these guys who aren't playing (Ainsworth, Brander, Foley, O'Neill) or at least looking a level above in the state leagues.(Waterman, Nelson).

Thinking that player A "hasn't been given a good run" is a fallacy as if he was any good he would have forced his way into a non finals competing team over the last 2 seasons. Much like Bailey Smith forcing his way into a strong doggies midfield as an 18 year old, or Sam Berry at Adelaide (a midfielder) in a fwd pocket, Duggan 2015, O. Allen 2019.

Dixon (23) has done nothing. Clear cut de-listing
Naish (23) played okay in the first half of the year but has flaws and we have better wing options coming through
Foley (23) has played a handful of games but isn't close to good enough for AFL
O'Neill (22) is one of our better WAFL players and slowly improves each year but doesnt make our AFL side any better and doesn't look like he will ever get there.
-West (23) deserves a spot next year based on performances but is hard up against it to be on the list in 5 years time as a first choice on-baller.
Rotham(24) plays and obsessively switches the footy but does little else.

In the same sort of group are Jones & Pettrucelle who have shown glimpses at least and you would take over any of the above.

It would be tough calls to delist a 2nd year player yet there are reasons both ways:
-Trew (20) despite playing games is a non improver but has a case because of injuries. Which in itself are concerning.
-Winder (20) is being shoehorned as a small forward but is better than just that. However is just about the only guy who can't crack a game even when we are playing top up players.
-Edwards (20) seems perma-injured, looks to have composure yet seems likely to be a role player at best.

Jeremy McGovern dislikes this post

JK too

 

[Goroyals22]

If we cut too hard now we'll have to fill a large chunk of next year's list with 18 year olds on two-year contracts, leaving us with an issue of who to cut next year. If the draft is as shallow as watchers are saying, those 18 year olds probably aren't going to be up to standard either. I'd rather have another year of Foley or Winder and cut them next year than be relying on the dregs of this year's draft.

This is list management - it's not just cutting everyone you don't think is going to be a star as soon as you make that decision. You need to think beyond the current offseason when it comes to contracts and the draft.

It's not helped by the AFL leaving it to the last minute to decide on list sizes and the cap either...

You do realise you don’t have to draft 18 year olds. You have the Culley example of last years under 18s who missed most of the year you can pick into, plus 21 -24 year olds which are better now than their 18s draft year. If the recruiters took the blinkers off their are plenty of blokes to fill a list and improve it.

 

[BeornJ]

Jeremy McGovern dislikes this post

JK too

On an afl list

 

[Spooky17]

I can barely read this forum today, so many damn adds and pop ups.

I assume chrome is the best to combat this?

 

[amazingjoshy]

I can barely read this forum today, so many damn adds and pop ups.

I assume chrome is the best to combat this?

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[amazingjoshy]

On an afl list

Not sure what Ur point is

 

[BeornJ]

Not sure what Ur point is

Sorry, misread your post. Thought you said TK.

All good

 

[dinnaz]

I agree with your main point but would ad that occasionally it 'clicks' for a player later on, especially with a position/role change.

Eg. Sheppard.

True, but Shep & even Masto were maligned a lot early days. Each still played 10-15 odd games a year during those first 3-4 development years. We are talking about guys who are half as good.
Specifically by age 23 like on my thin ice list

Player (@23)	Games
Chris Masten	78​
Andrew Embley	74​
Patty McGinnity	71​
Josh Kennedy (Key Fwd)	67​
Brad Sheppard	59​
Tom Cole	56​
Jackson Nelson	55​
Jack Petruccelle	53​
Koby Stevens	50​
Ashley Smith	43​
Josh Rotham	33​
Jeremy McGovern	33​
Jarrod Brander	27​
Xavier O'Neill	18​
Luke Foley	17​

While the maths suggest McGinnity was a superstar he was still a lot more capable(like West) than guys who barely play 2-3 games a year. Also we know that sometimes the penny drops and players get a hell of a lot more professional with a kick in the bum and rapidly improve. McGovern around 2013, Michael Walters 2012.

You’ve knocked out about a dozen players there. We aren’t going to get any better at the end of the draft for these.
Very harsh call on Dixon, perhaps rewatch the first few games.
Jones and Petrucelle disprove your three year theory, both been around for that long and are making improvement.
Numerous examples of players who made it after three years could be cited.

I'm happy to hold onto the 2020 draftees another year, yet as they were all pretty much end of draft/rookie selections we can 100% grab the same level of perceived quality in this years draft. What we are looking for is a rapid improver who perhaps has not gone through all the talent pathways, had an injury affected draft year, or even just goes bang when in a professional environment.

Dixon I thought was handy for sure in the first 3 games maybe. But over the full season i've lost faith and we can use that spot for another shot at the draft. We hardly need to shoehorn in another below average tall into the team.

Petruccelle (29 games after year 3) hasn't had a better year than in 2019 his 2nd year, and wont make any more leaps unless he has a position change. He wont get any fitter, faster or all of a sudden turn up and kick 40 goals in 2023.
Jones (7 games and not on an AFL list after year 3) obviously being switched to a back flank has saved his job but geez he seems like a guy who will live off 1 year contracts his entire career.

 

[dkalphy]

Okay so do we actually want Wardlaw? Surely Norf take Shezeel?

Whats Wardlaws numbers in the VFL?

 

[MrWoollie]

At this early stage I'm picking Norf will take either...

Sheezel and Buslinger with picks 1 and 2, leaving us with Wardlaw, or
Wardlaw and Buslinger with picks 1 and 2, leaving us with Hewitt

Meanwhile Brisbane rub hands for not having to match points for Ashcroft.

 

[dkalphy]

At this early stage I'm picking Norf will take either...

Sheezel and Buslinger with picks 1 and 2, leaving us with Wardlaw, or
Wardlaw and Buslinger with picks 1 and 2, leaving us with Hewitt

Meanwhile Brisbane rub hands for not having to match points for Ashcroft.

Norf arent getting pick 1 and 2

 

[dinnaz]

If we cut too hard now we'll have to fill a large chunk of next year's list with 18 year olds on two-year contracts, leaving us with an issue of who to cut next year. If the draft is as shallow as watchers are saying, those 18 year olds probably aren't going to be up to standard either. I'd rather have another year of Foley or Winder and cut them next year than be relying on the dregs of this year's draft.

This is list management - it's not just cutting everyone you don't think is going to be a star as soon as you make that decision. You need to think beyond the current offseason when it comes to contracts and the draft.

It's not helped by the AFL leaving it to the last minute to decide on list sizes and the cap either...

At the moment we will be taking 4 ND selections, and likely 2 Rookie picks. So if Hurn goes again that's a choice between Edward & Winder to make room for that spot. Unless we get rid of Langdon/Foley/O'Neill 1 year early or retire a senior player early which I would hate to see.

I would think that since we aren't contending that depth players are essentially useless when we could have an opportunity to develop another player instead.

This is list management - it's not just cutting everyone you don't think is going to be a star as soon as you make that decision. You need to think beyond the current offseason when it comes to contracts and the draft.

Surely we would be more than happy to unearth a consistent role player like a dour defender who we can lock in for 150 games
R1 2023 we have last weeks team
- Kennedy and Hurn
+ Chesser, Yeo, McGovern, Cripps, Sheed, Cole, Allen, #2 pick & perhaps J. Williams
as guys who come in looking for spots. Its decent depth building from below if 5 guys miss out who are in the conversation each week for a spot. And then the year after we get stronger again from 2022 draftees. If we hold onto guys too long then delist in 2023-2024 we have that gap in depth when we will be hoping to move up the ladder again.

 

[MrWoollie]

Norf arent getting pick 1 and 2

Watch this space baby.

Norf are more crap than any team since the AFL started. They are the kings of crapsville. We are bad, Gold Coast were bad when they got priority pick 2 (Rowell/Anderson) but neither are in the same city as Norf. When it comes to the city of Crapsville Norf are the sole residents of the entire central city block. We reside in an inner suburb, but only get to visit the inner city occasionally.

The only other teams to go through a season with 1 win were startup club GWS in their second year and shutdown/turn off the lights Fitzroy in their last season.

I see Norf getting two sympathy picks, one at the top of the order and another in the second round.

 

[southcoast]

Eg Embley

See your Embley and raise you Darren Glass.

Epitome of a ‘slow starter’


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[Biggie]

North won’t get 1 & 2

 

[UseR2006]

The Question: Do we ask for a pick?

 

[JackOutback]

Watch this space baby.

Norf are more crap than any team since the AFL started. They are the kings of crapsville. We are bad, Gold Coast were bad when they got priority pick 2 (Rowell/Anderson) but neither are in the same city as Norf. When it comes to the city of Crapsville Norf are the sole residents of the entire central city block. We reside in an inner suburb, but only get to visit the inner city occasionally.

The only other teams to go through a season with 1 win were startup club GWS in their second year and shutdown/turn off the lights Fitzroy in their last season.

I see Norf getting two sympathy picks, one at the top of the order and another in the second round.

Geez, people have short memories. They aren’t worse than GC, GWS or Fitzroy… yet.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

The Question: Do we ask for a pick?

****
No

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

The Question: Do we ask for a pick?

We played finals two seasons ago, we finished a game and percentage out of the eight last season, and our two-win season this year has come on the back of an unprecedented injury and unavailability toll during which we’ve had to use a modern record number of players.

The “No” response would come before we’d even finished asking.