1st Test Border Gavaskar Trophy November 22-26 1350hrs @ Perth Stadium

[Some Idiot]

Here’s the thing.

It’s already a sport that unlike every other sport there is, even if you are getting a go, your day can be over in a heartbeat.

Play AFL? You could be the worst player out there, but as long as you aren’t on the bench the entire game, and you won’t be, really, because no coach is going to do that, you will be in the game. Whether you are chasing the ball, trying to lay a tackle, trying to take a mark, whatever. You’re in the game.

The other codes are the same in whatever capacity. Tennis and golf etc are individual sports and no matter how bad a kid is at them, they get to play them to the maximum capacity.

You get a kid that plays cricket and tell him on a Saturday at club level that he has to pay full fees and train (or his parents do with the fees part) and spend 3 hours fielding which literally no one likes, and then won’t get a go because he’s not deemed worthy and the kids above him are all going to get to bat for as long as they want, you see how many of them bother sticking around. Soon enough you won’t have a comp.

On the other hand if you start telling them ‘mate, we are going to give you a job, you can open the batting or bat 3’ they might get out after a few balls anyway, and barely even disrupt the good kids. Hardly get in their way. But they get a taste of responsibility and they get some motivation to improve. The kids who retire can usually come back out to bat anyway.

And then as we’ve all mentioned those kids that are good enough who have a genuine appetite for it, go to the next level and play rep cricket where they can bat to their heart’s content for 40-50 overs if they’re good enough.

A lot of great players love fielding, it's a passion for fielding that makes some of the great fielders. Fielding can be a very enjoyable part of the game with the right squad, banter flying around the field, every player engaged and looking for a catch or run out every ball. Those who love fielding will never be bored playing cricket.

 

[PhatBoy]

A lot of great players love fielding, it's a passion for fielding that makes some of the great fielders. Fielding can be a very enjoyable part of the game with the right squad, banter flying around the field, every player engaged and looking for a catch or run out every ball. Those who love fielding will never be bored playing cricket.

Exactly my point. Of course there are. I myself love fielding and I’m a fat useless c**t. But How many of them do you reckon started out that way, or weren’t the hyperactive ‘would enjoy literally any sport if it involved being outdoors and being on a field’ type.

Very few I would imagine.

For a high percentage that love of being out there would have been forged as their love of the game in general grew - which would have come from the other aspects. I doubt a lot of guys have just always from the beginning been happy ‘just to field.’

 

[Lunchtime]

Steve Waugh in his autobiography makes the point that Bevan's issue wasn't about the short ball per se, it's that he was always tinkering with aspects of his game. He couldn't settle on one method and was always trying new things.

It just so happened that at that time, he was tinkering with how he played the short ball. His ugly dismissals were not a result of him being 'scared' or 'incapable'.....it was just a result of him being caught in two minds and not having settled on one way to play it.

Eventually he sorted it out and never had issues again at Shield level, but the "weak against the short stuff" stigma just stuck.

Yeah exactly and it was this stigma which unfortunately stuck with him in regards to the short ball. He'd get a game for Australia nowdays in Test's. A fine player - his numbers in red ball cricket (First-Class cricket) prove that.

 

[Lunchtime]

Exactly my point. Of course there are. I myself love fielding and I’m a fat useless c**t. But How many of them do you reckon started out that way, or weren’t the hyperactive ‘would enjoy literally any sport if it involved being outdoors and being on a field’ type.

Very few I would imagine.

For a high percentage that love of being out there would have been forged as their love of the game in general grew - which would have come from the other aspects. I doubt a lot of guys have just always from the beginning been happy ‘just to field.’

Someone like a Andy Symonds (R.I.P) or Ricky Ponting or Jonty Rhodes....I reckon they loved fielding from a young age and took that positive attitude with them right through their career and this mindset helped them be fantastic fielders too.

 

[PhatBoy]

Someone like a Andy Symonds (R.I.P) or Ricky Ponting or Jonty Rhodes....I reckon they loved fielding from a young age and took that positive attitude with them right through their career and this mindset helped them be fantastic fielders too.

Yep I reckon those types would have loved it, AB de Villiers would have been another one - the types that loved all sports and were into everything though symonds I reckon might be the least likely of those three, he strikes me of more the ‘it just came stupidly naturally’ type whereas the others - while obviously naturally good at it in their own way - I reckon would have spent hour after hour just for the love of it catching balls and practicing throwing at the stumps etc

 

[Black Diamond]

Fielding is 80% minimum of the game though. A kid who is not interested in fielding is not that interested in cricket.

 

[Black Diamond]

Steve Waugh in his autobiography makes the point that Bevan's issue wasn't about the short ball per se, it's that he was always tinkering with aspects of his game. He couldn't settle on one method and was always trying new things.

It just so happened that at that time, he was tinkering with how he played the short ball. His ugly dismissals were not a result of him being 'scared' or 'incapable'.....it was just a result of him being caught in two minds and not having settled on one way to play it.

Eventually he sorted it out and never had issues again at Shield level, but the "weak against the short stuff" stigma just stuck.

IIRC Waugh also said Bevan did not embrace his own bowling and didn’t want to be an all rounder. Which I kind of understand.

He batted at 7 for many of his innings. That doesn’t necessarily help.

 

[Gough]

Fielding is 80% minimum of the game though. A kid who is not interested in fielding is not that interested in cricket.

I knew I was the eleventh bloke picked for my team so I practised fielding a lot to make sure if I was dropped it was going to be for bowling too many half trackers and not dropping catches.

 

[PhatBoy]

Fielding is 80% minimum of the game though. A kid who is not interested in fielding is not that interested in cricket.

We all follow cricket, we know how the game works.

They are kids.

Most kids up to a certain age aren’t interested in standing in the sun doing nothing when they aren’t directly involved for 10-20-30 minutes at a time.

I’m sorry to break it to you but as a parent of kids who played junior cricket right through the youngest age groups through to the end of primary school, they want to bat and bowl. They tolerate fielding because they have to. They will try, and the ones who like, or love, cricket will get more out of it than the others, and maybe 15-25 per cent will genuinely enjoy it. They will fight for the chance to be wicketkeeper…… because it means they are involved.

80-90 per cent will enjoy batting and bowling.

The remaining 10-20 per cent are there because their parents want them to be playing sport and are making them

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I think that is one of the major problems for Glenn Maxwell if he wishes to play test cricket again.To much white ball cricket and very little red ball and perhaps a issue for most of our batsman trying to switch from T20 back to red ball cricket.

Maxwell will never play Test cricket again Way to old now and doesn't have the game.

 

[Lunchtime]

'Must be on the table': Ian Healy calls for return of Australian icon after axing

Ian Healy wants a return to the way things used to be done. Read more here.

au.sports.yahoo.com

 

[PhatBoy]

A thought that strikes me when I read that story and thinking about a player like JFM:

All these newer generation players who gear their cricket around not just physically getting contracts with franchises and so forth (so planning their calendar around it) but tactically as players they are so one dimensional it’s like they are so locked in to only being able to play a certain way.

There’s nothing wrong with being able to slog and tee off. But almost every great batsman in history could do that. It doesn’t make you special. Why do these guys think they have to ONLY have that 5th gear?

 

[Black Diamond]

A thought that strikes me when I read that story and thinking about a player like JFM:

All these newer generation players who gear their cricket around not just physically getting contracts with franchises and so forth (so planning their calendar around it) but tactically as players they are so one dimensional it’s like they are so locked in to only being able to play a certain way.

There’s nothing wrong with being able to slog and tee off. But almost every great batsman in history could do that. It doesn’t make you special. Why do these guys think they have to ONLY have that 5th gear?

The greats rarely slogged though. Their games were built around defence, footwork and stance. To hit the ball through the air they they adjusted their leavers. All of their front foot shots were extensions of the forward defence, and same for back foot shots. Including when they were chasing runs. And their heads were always still.

JFM has no proper technique. He is basically a tailender who has a good eye and quick hands. Every so often it comes off. It usually doesn't.

He plays the way he does because that is the only we he can. He has either been taught shit, is not a smart player, or both. Likely both to me.

 

[PhatBoy]

The greats rarely slogged though. Their games were built around defence, footwork and stance. To hit the ball through the air they they adjusted their leavers. All of their front foot shots were extensions of the forward defence, and same for back foot shots. Including when they were chasing runs. And their heads were always still.

JFM has no proper technique. He is basically a tailender who has a good eye and quick hands. Every so often it comes off. It usually doesn't.

He plays the way he does because that is the only we he can. He has either been taught shit, is not a smart player, or both. Likely both to me.

No that’s right they rarely did it but they all could: even Kallis - the modern pinnacle of being rock solid and dour, he had that in his arsenal and is (and yes this owes a bit to how much cricket he played but also demonstrated how much he could show power when it was required) if I recall correctly one of the most prolific 6 hitters in test history.

They all had those gears. They just realised and were coached smartly enough that they didn’t have to rely on them. Be smart enough to know that you can have others.

Why players lock them into thinking it’s the only way they can play when they are going through that development time of 17-22 or so is just beyond me

 

[Voice of the G]

Maxwell will never play Test cricket again Way to old now and doesn't have the game.

Saw Maxwell bat in a 2nd 11 game at the Junction oval a couple of weeks ago.Caught on the fence and looked in 2 minds whether to hit it out of the ground or play along the ground to the fielder on the fence.Agree,age is his biggest problem now.

 

[Black Diamond]

No that’s right they rarely did it but they all could: even Kallis - the modern pinnacle of being rock solid and dour, he had that in his arsenal and is (and yes this owes a bit to how much cricket he played but also demonstrated how much he could show power when it was required) if I recall correctly one of the most prolific 6 hitters in test history.

They all had those gears. They just realised and were coached smartly enough that they didn’t have to rely on them. Be smart enough to know that you can have others.

Why players lock them into thinking it’s the only way they can play when they are going through that development time of 17-22 or so is just beyond me

The older guys: that is normal technique in 5th gear, and usually only executed once set and even then only if necessary.

JFM: tactless swinging of the bat, not watching the ball, no footwork, not played in. This is the only way he knows how to play, so this is how he plays.

Considering why the older generation could occupy the wicket - they were taught to do it. Many of them weren’t “retired” after facing 60 balls.

JFM was brought up in an era when standing out meant scoring 30 from 20 balls, rather than 20 from 50 balls. Hence he never learned to bat for time. He never learned to go through the gears.

On a related point, most of the great ODI batsmen were excellent FC cricketers. JFM is a terrible FC cricketer and not a good ODI player.

That is because scoring quickly requires a good foundation which JFM does not have.

 

[Grumpyshades]

'Must be on the table': Ian Healy calls for return of Australian icon after axing

Ian Healy wants a return to the way things used to be done. Read more here.

au.sports.yahoo.com

the youth focus should be at shield level..Each state promoting their best young batsmen and bowlers, even at the expense of some older players who are past test cricket

It is something WA has done very well in the past few seasons
Id rather have 35+ year olds playing test cricket than each shield side filled with them

 

[PhatBoy]

The older guys: that is normal technique in 5th gear, and usually only executed once set and even then only if necessary.

JFM: tactless swinging of the bat, not watching the ball, no footwork, not played in. This is the only way he knows how to play, so this is how he plays.

Considering why the older generation could occupy the wicket - they were taught to do it. Many of them weren’t “retired” after facing 60 balls.

JFM was brought up in an era when standing out meant scoring 30 from 20 balls, rather than 20 from 50 balls. Hence he never learned to bat for time. He never learned to go through the gears.

On a related point, most of the great ODI batsmen were excellent FC cricketers. JFM is a terrible FC cricketer and not a good ODI player.

That is because scoring quickly requires a good foundation which JFM does not have.

Sigh. It’s not to do with when they were retired.
Many of those guys are roughly my age and came through exactly the same sort of systems that I played under where in junior cricket you had to retire at certain points. It’s a separate argument altogether.

At some point you need to separate yourself from that idea.

All remotely elite junior cricketers - and I’m not talking zone representatives, this is literally kids that simply represent their towns - get the chance to bat in games where you don’t retire, from under 12s onwards.

The idea of retiring after a certain period has been around for donkey’s years. The idea of batsmen playing like JFM has only appeared recently. If your theory about it being related to retiring was correct, it would have happened much much sooner.

 

[Voice of the G]

The older guys: that is normal technique in 5th gear, and usually only executed once set and even then only if necessary.

JFM: tactless swinging of the bat, not watching the ball, no footwork, not played in. This is the only way he knows how to play, so this is how he plays.

Considering why the older generation could occupy the wicket - they were taught to do it. Many of them weren’t “retired” after facing 60 balls.

JFM was brought up in an era when standing out meant scoring 30 from 20 balls, rather than 20 from 50 balls. Hence he never learned to bat for time. He never learned to go through the gears.

On a related point, most of the great ODI batsmen were excellent FC cricketers. JFM is a terrible FC cricketer and not a good ODI player.

That is because scoring quickly requires a good foundation which JFM does not have.

Dean Jones was a perfect example of how to play 1 day cricket,most of his shots were along the ground and looked for the gaps and got 4,s but many 2,s and 3,s.This T20 stuff has ruined a lot of potentially good test players like Maxwell and JFM could be heading the same way.

 

[Lunchtime]

Dean Jones was a perfect example of how to play 1 day cricket,most of his shots were along the ground and looked for the gaps and got 4,s but many 2,s and 3,s.This T20 stuff has ruined a lot of potentially good test players like Maxwell and JFM could be heading the same way.

I've never truly been a fan of T20 cricket. I've never really got into the BBL/WBBL/other T20 leagues around the world. I can only watch T20 in short spurts. I can't watch a whole tournament of T20 cricket.

T20 cricket had impacted negatively on red ball (First-Class/Test) cricket.

 

[Black Diamond]

Dean Jones was a perfect example of how to play 1 day cricket,most of his shots were along the ground and looked for the gaps and got 4,s but many 2,s and 3,s.This T20 stuff has ruined a lot of potentially good test players like Maxwell and JFM could be heading the same way.

I don’t recall any of Jones’ career, but this sounds a lot like MJ Hussey.

 

[PhatBoy]

I don’t recall any of Jones’ career, but this sounds a lot like MJ Hussey.

Jones set the template for Bevan and Hussey but he could go when he had to.

His 145(?) at the Gabba against England in the early 90s had some big hitting from memory where he did a lot of running down the wicket

 

[Black Diamond]

Sigh. It’s not to do with when they were retired.
Many of those guys are roughly my age and came through exactly the same sort of systems that I played under where in junior cricket you had to retire at certain points. It’s a separate argument altogether.

At some point you need to separate yourself from that idea.

All remotely elite junior cricketers - and I’m not talking zone representatives, this is literally kids that simply represent their towns - get the chance to bat in games where you don’t retire, from under 12s onwards.

The idea of retiring after a certain period has been around for donkey’s years. The idea of batsmen playing like JFM has only appeared recently. If your theory about it being related to retiring was correct, it would have happened much much sooner.

The rule might have been around for donkey's years, and guess what? We have also not produced the same quality of batsmen for donkey's years.

And it is no good having batting limits on kids to then only pick the best ones to play rep cricket with no limits. Because which kids get picked in rep? The ones who score heaps from few deliveries. Not the ones who grind out long innings. In fact, the ones who grind it out get lost to the game.

What is your theory? Because comes down to:

1. Incorrect incentives for young batsmen;
2. Too many kids jammed into junior programs;
3. Too much viewership of short-form cricket; and
4. Coaches who have no idea, or alternatively are badly incentivised themselves.

 

[PhatBoy]

The rule might have been around for donkey's years, and guess what? We have also not produced the same quality of batsmen for donkey's years.

And it is no good having batting limits on kids to then only pick the best ones to play rep cricket with no limits. Because which kids get picked in rep? The ones who score heaps from few deliveries. Not the ones who grind out long innings. In fact, the ones who grind it out get lost to the game.

What is your theory? Because comes down to:

1. Incorrect incentives for young batsmen;
2. Too many kids jammed into junior programs;
3. Too much viewership of short-form cricket; and
4. Coaches who have no idea, or alternatively are badly incentivised themselves.

Fine mate. My theory is that you won’t have kids to pick from if no one wants to play the game.


You just said yourself you aren’t old enough to remember Dean Jones.

I am.

It wasn’t that long ago we had Michael Clarke, Adam Voges, Chris Rogers etc that followed the golden era of Australian cricket. All these guys could bat. They weren’t Ponting level good (Clarke was world class obviously) but they were excellent players and all were not much older than me and all would have come through systems where you would have retired at certain points in regular Saturday junior cricket, and then played rep cricket where you don’t.


You want to know what my theory is, as someone who covered the game as a journalist provincially?

All higher representative levels, that I know of, involve some sort of T20 cricket. The SCG Cup as far as I know is still a T20 comp.

The Bradman Cup (the nsw country titles for under 16s) is a t20 competition now. Same with the Kookaburra Cup for under 14s.

The competitions that players like Henry Hunt came through when he was a teenager, as far as I remember were 40-50 over competitions back then. They’re all 20 over competitions now.

Local district rep competitions I am pretty sure are still 40 over games - I don’t work in that area anymore or follow it closely so that may have changed in the last couple of years but last I knew they were still 40 over games.


There’s your answer

 

[Black Diamond]

Fine mate. My theory is that you won’t have kids to pick from if no one wants to play the game.


You just said yourself you aren’t old enough to remember Dean Jones.

I am.

It wasn’t that long ago we had Michael Clarke, Adam Voges, Chris Rogers etc that followed the golden era of Australian cricket. All these guys could bat. They weren’t Ponting level good (Clarke was world class obviously) but they were excellent players and all were not much older than me and all would have come through systems where you would have retired at certain points in regular Saturday junior cricket, and then played rep cricket where you don’t.


You want to know what my theory is, as someone who covered the game as a journalist provincially?

All higher representative levels, that I know of, involve some sort of T20 cricket. The SCG Cup as far as I know is still a T20 comp.

The Bradman Cup (the nsw country titles for under 16s) is a t20 competition now. Same with the Kookaburra Cup for under 14s.

The competitions that players like Henry Hunt came through when he was a teenager, as far as I remember were 40-50 over competitions back then. They’re all 20 over competitions now.

Local district rep competitions I am pretty sure are still 40 over games - I don’t work in that area anymore or follow it closely so that may have changed in the last couple of years but last I knew they were still 40 over games.


There’s your answer

Michael Clarke and Steve Smith are outliers in the last 20 years.

Chris Rogers came back in (way past his peak) because there was nobody else coming through. Same for Adam Voges, who also had some clear deficiencies. You will recall Voges came into the side early 2015 in part because they didn't think they could go with Joe Burns who was 25-26 at the time.

These are not good examples.