Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II

[Arr0w]

I dont think teh Cliub is as happily 'married' to a few of teh younger players as many might think. Harker picks Kennedy as a few others might and I'm sure they have their reasons - others might pick 'other' players are just as tradeable in order to get what teh Club needs to be genuinely competitive - now.

Management is totally focussed on membership numbers now and that means winning games. Teague got to be coach because his 'agenda' is using the best players he has playing in their natural positions first and then worrying about 'fitting in' and getting 'game time' into kids that should be still playing VFL.

So may not be popular opinion - but I'd say the only players NOT tradeable are: Cripps/Charlie/Harry/Walsh/Weitering - that is your spine and probably your next Captain.

If I could get Wines/Martin/Papley for this years and next years firsts + any one of SPS/Fisher/Dow/Marchbank/Kennedy - where do I sign.

Replacing Murphy/Kreuzer/Simpson/Ed - won't happen by rubbing a bottle really hard and waiting for a genie either - not surprised that the younger players are back to training early - pretty sure they have all been given a reality check in end of season reviews.

All fair points, I don't disagree as such, I just see it slightly different, as to why this year we will not trade players to achieve our targets

The club might not be happily married to the players, but many still are at different levels, given the sentiment around Betts and our other aging players. SOS is more ruthless than that, but it is still a balance. I don't get caught up with the extreme views/analysis, never as bad, never as good. Unlikely to finish bottom 2 this year, probably unlikely to finish in the 8 next year (injuries are a massive factor)

Murphy, Ed, Kruezer, Jones, Simpson, Casboult are aging, who replaces them in the next 1-3 years, all currently considered best 22 by most. Some will come from within, others from trading/FA over that same period. Membership had already started rising despite our results early in the season, but when the results did start to come 2nd half of the year, it evolved without the likes of Doc, Willo, Marchbank, Charlie, Cuners, decent inclusions even if only half were available. We beat most of the sides around us to mid table, so I think most of the improvement will continue to be from within

We will make at least 9 changes, with a number penciled in already for the next year's batch (some could still be cut this year) unless they start to show some form or continuity. Namely, Phillips, Finbar, Polson, Lang Macreadie, Deluca, Goddard and the injury prone Willo. There is your next 8, most if not all have little value.

The other side, is the players we are targeting, none of which will clean the cupboard of our trading chips. We could/should be able to land the likes of (not all) Papley, Martin, Butler, Betts, Cutler, while still holding a 1st rounder this year or next. So there still is something up our sleeve if required.

Realistically, no player is indispensable, but some as you mentioned should be considered untouchable.

So, I don't think we will lose any talent required this year, next year is a whole new ball game

 

[JustaBattler]

All fair points, I don't disagree as such, I just see it slightly different, as to why this year we will not trade players to achieve our targets

The club might not be happily married to the players, but many still are at different levels, given the sentiment around Betts and our other aging players. SOS is more ruthless than that, but it is still a balance. I don't get caught up with the extreme views/analysis, never as bad, never as good. Unlikely to finish bottom 2 this year, probably unlikely to finish in the 8 next year (injuries are a massive factor)

Murphy, Ed, Kruezer, Jones, Simpson, Casboult are aging, who replaces them in the next 1-3 years, all currently considered best 22 by most. Some will come from within, others from trading/FA over that same period. Membership had already started rising despite our results early in the season, but when the results did start to come 2nd half of the year, it evolved without the likes of Doc, Willo, Marchbank, Charlie, Cuners, decent inclusions even if only half were available. We beat most of the sides around us to mid table, so I think most of the improvement will continue to be from within

We will make at least 9 changes, with a number penciled in already for the next year's batch (some could still be cut this year) unless they start to show some form or continuity. Namely, Phillips, Finbar, Polson, Lang Macreadie, Deluca, Goddard and the injury prone Willo. There is your next 8, most if not all have little value.

The other side, is the players we are targeting, none of which will clean the cupboard of our trading chips. We could/should be able to land the likes of (not all) Papley, Martin, Butler, Betts, Cutler, while still holding a 1st rounder this year or next. So there still is something up our sleeve if required.

Realistically, no player is indispensable, but some as you mentioned should be considered untouchable.

So, I don't think we will lose any talent required this year, next year is a whole new ball game

You've got more of an understanding what target players are likely to cost or not. Papley and (probably) Martin immediately lift the genuine 'quality' of the list so we pay what they will cost and if that means we have to use one of the young 'gunna be' types to swing a decent developed mid - I'm all for that too.

 

[Pafloyul]

What bugs me is that many on here have an all or nothing approach to list management. I hope that doesn't extend to the club. What I mean is, you have people on here who seem to have few qualms in weakening our strengths to pay our weaknesses. Trade McKay to get a midfielder, 'not ideal but on board if worst comes to worst', trade Casboult or Plowman to remain in the draft, nobody cares to entertain it. It misses the point in what will/might make us a viable finals threat in the future. Cripps, Walsh, Charlie, Weitering (maybe) and a bunch of role-players is not enough to build a premiership side around. There's no need to do anything silly but we need to explore all options to help improve the club.

 

[Brutalitops]

What bugs me is that many on here have an all or nothing approach to list management. I hope that doesn't extend to the club. What I mean is, you have people on here who seem to have few qualms in weakening our strengths to pay our weaknesses. Trade McKay to get a midfielder, 'not ideal but on board if worst comes to worst', trade Casboult or Plowman to remain in the draft, nobody cares to entertain it. It misses the point in what will/might make us a viable finals threat in the future. Cripps, Walsh, Charlie, Weitering (maybe) and a bunch of role-players is not enough to build a premiership side around. There's no need to do anything silly but we need to explore all options to help improve the club.

McKay is untouchable as far as Im concerned. Absolutely required.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

The problem with untouchables are they could get million dollar plus offers from our rivals and it forces our hand. This is also a reason we need to see huge improvement over the next two seasons as a team. In 2021 all of Cripps, Weitering and McKay are OOC (Doc and SPS too). Those three could all get god father offers and there is not much we can do about that. We need to be ready to contend to make sure these guys aren’t thinking about anything other them premierships.

 

[Jimmae]

Dreamboard updated

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

We don't have to become Richmond we have to be a brilliant and exciting Carlton that has excellent footy skills and is tough..

 

[Stiffler's Dad]

We don't have to become Richmond we have to be a brilliant and exciting Carlton that has excellent footy skills and is tough..

And faster than we are now!

 

[thylacine60]

What bugs me is that many on here have an all or nothing approach to list management. I hope that doesn't extend to the club. What I mean is, you have people on here who seem to have few qualms in weakening our strengths to pay our weaknesses. Trade McKay to get a midfielder, 'not ideal but on board if worst comes to worst', trade Casboult or Plowman to remain in the draft, nobody cares to entertain it. It misses the point in what will/might make us a viable finals threat in the future. Cripps, Walsh, Charlie, Weitering (maybe) and a bunch of role-players is not enough to build a premiership side around. There's no need to do anything silly but we need to explore all options to help improve the club.

hey paf, some like me are just crap at list management............everyone gets a participation ribbon these days though........

 

[Carlton1234]

Dreamboard updated

put eddie betts as number 19

 

[Blues90]

I don't know if I like this going all out on trades this year purely because we still don't have enough depth even if we bring in all those forwards our midfield is still very light our forward stocks and our defence stocks are decent but a midfield still needs work purely because in 2 or 3 years when we no longer have Curnow Murphy and Simpson we still have to replace them and it's not smart doing it all through free agency too much money

 

[Blues90]

I'm not sure who was just on Trade Radio but whoever it was I turned it off after 30 seconds because they tried to say the Brad crouch is in the same type I've category as Tom Lynch and Stephen coniglio what a ****en' joke that is ridiculous bloke can barely play a game

 

[The Ian PrenderCast]

I'm not sure who was just on Trade Radio but whoever it was I turned it off after 30 seconds because they tried to say the Brad crouch is in the same type I've category as Tom Lynch and Stephen coniglio what a fu**en' joke that is ridiculous bloke can barely play a game

A little bit of Sam McClure goes a long, loooooooong way.

 

[Kramer1]

As good as Levi was through the back half of the year, it's easy to see a situation where he can't go forward and has no room going back.

Easier to see a situation where one of Kreuzer, McKay, Curnow, Jones or Weitering aren't available in any given week.

 

[Kramer1]

I dont think teh Cliub is as happily 'married' to a few of teh younger players

You doing this shit on purpose?

 

[HARKER]

Easier to see a situation where one of Kreuzer, McKay, Curnow, Jones or Weitering aren't available in any given week.

I think we're over-reaching just a little as to what we should be expecting from Casboult going forward.
We don't want Casboult as our premium back-up ruckman, forward nor back-man.

He had a terrific back end of the season and if he stays then fine, but if plays a part in brokering the right deal for us, we should have a good look.

 

[Kramer1]

I think we're over-reaching just a little as to what we should be expecting from Casboult going forward.
We don't want Casboult as our premium back-up ruckman, forward nor back-man.

He had a terrific back end of the season and if he stays then fine, but if plays a part in brokering the right deal for us, we should have a good look.

Not sure why we wouldn't? Having one guy who can cover three roles to a relatively high standard is the ultimate insurance policy.

He's physically in great shape, playing with confidence, I assume on a value contract...and he's ours.

Who are we realistically targeting who can perform to the same level, for the same price, without the expectation of being a best 22 lock?

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

A little bit of Sam McClure goes a long, loooooooong way.

Thinks his opinion is above everyone elses. Can't stand him.

 

[HARKER]

Not sure why we wouldn't? Having one guy who can cover three roles to a relatively high standard is the ultimate insurance policy.
He's physically in great shape, playing with confidence, I assume on a value contract...and he's ours.
Who are we realistically targeting who can perform to the same level, for the same price, without the expectation of being a best 22 lock?

Here's who we should be looking at -

Ruck - Phillips would take precedence over Casboult. De Koning has to be developed and quickly. No need to hide him away.
Backs - If Goddard is to be insurance, then we should use him as insurance. Macreadie also has to be fast-tracked now.
Forwards - Should we lose one of our tall forwards, go without one. JSilvagni could take up shop instead anyway.

If Casboult stays under our terms then that's perfectly fine also.
I just don't see us offering up three years for him and if someone else does - Let's trade.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

What are we thinking about Riley Knight?

Adelaide board have him coming to us now. A few aren't pleased with it. I wonder what Teague and SOS have planned for him.

 

[JustaBattler]

Casboult's value to Carlton based on exposed form and body fit for AFL is greater than the following:

Goddard/McCreadie/Williamson/Marchbank/Polson/Phillips - and that is just for starters.
On minimal opportunity kennedy is of greater value on field in forward line and rotating through midfield than: Fisher/Dow/DeLuca - as he was "learning his running patterns" once Bolton was gone, Teague couldn't get kennedy in the team fast enough, and his on field performance justified selection - on par as far as exposed form in AFL given limited opportunites with SOJ who is blessed and cursed with the name Sylvagni.

Lots of love for under performing high draft picks on here - Fisher has zero excuse for not being able to play in forward line - SPS showed more ability to play decent football off HBF than on ball or on a wing - Dow has some excuse as a second year player - but that is wearing thin given his one way running and lack of on ball 'smarts'.

First issue at Carlton is the continual inability of too many highly fancied players like Marchbank/Williamson/Cuningham to actually be fit to play week in week out- this has caused massive disruption to team development. Second issue is a large rump of 'weak depth' clogging up the list. Inexplicable some of the runts that have been given contracts.

I'm hoping that Fisher and Dow in particular have a fantastic pre-season and come back with improved ability to play a role - but I see Setterfield and Stocker as being ahead of them at start of 2020 season. If all of Betts/Butler/Papley and Martin come on board - selection wont be 'automatic' for some of these high draft picks. Good problem to have - but we are still looking for a class addition to on ball duties next to Cripps - I have my fingers crossed.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Not sure why we wouldn't? Having one guy who can cover three roles to a relatively high standard is the ultimate insurance policy.

He's physically in great shape, playing with confidence, I assume on a value contract...and he's ours.

Who are we realistically targeting who can perform to the same level, for the same price, without the expectation of being a best 22 lock?

If anyone says Josh Jenkins so help me..............

 

[Kramer1]

If anyone says Josh Jenkins so help me..............

The dude does not abide...

 

[HARKER]

Casboult's value to Carlton based on exposed form and body fit for AFL is greater than the following:

Goddard/McCreadie/Williamson/Marchbank/Polson/Phillips - and that is just for starters.
On minimal opportunity kennedy is of greater value on field in forward line and rotating through midfield than: Fisher/Dow/DeLuca - as he was "learning his running patterns" once Bolton was gone, Teague couldn't get kennedy in the team fast enough, and his on field performance justified selection - on par as far as exposed form in AFL given limited opportunites with SOJ who is blessed and cursed with the name Sylvagni.

Lots of love for under performing high draft picks on here - Fisher has zero excuse for not being able to play in forward line - SPS showed more ability to play decent football off HBF than on ball or on a wing - Dow has some excuse as a second year player - but that is wearing thin given his one way running and lack of on ball 'smarts'.

First issue at Carlton is the continual inability of too many highly fancied players like Marchbank/Williamson/Cuningham to actually be fit to play week in week out- this has caused massive disruption to team development. Second issue is a large rump of 'weak depth' clogging up the list. Inexplicable some of the runts that have been given contracts.

I'm hoping that Fisher and Dow in particular have a fantastic pre-season and come back with improved ability to play a role - but I see Setterfield and Stocker as being ahead of them at start of 2020 season. If all of Betts/Butler/Papley and Martin come on board - selection wont be 'automatic' for some of these high draft picks. Good problem to have - but we are still looking for a class addition to on ball duties next to Cripps - I have my fingers crossed.

Have a look though. Have a look at Fisher and Dow's first half of the year to the last.
Dow was averaging ~20 possessions a game and then dropped to 10, when given a new home.
Fishers output also diminished when playing forward, yet conversely ECurnows and Murphys output increased when thrown into the centre and not only by way of numbers but by way of damage done.
It may say more about our structures and use of players, than for the players alone.

 

[Stamos]

Have a look though. Have a look at Fisher and Dow's first half of the year to the last.
Dow was averaging ~20 possessions a game and then dropped to 10, when given a new home.
Fishers output also diminished when playing forward, yet conversely ECurnows and Murphys output increased when thrown into the centre and not only by way of numbers but by way of damage done.
It may say more about our structures and use of players, than for the players alone.

As well as this, Dow had a severely interrupted pre-season and Fisher was coming off a broken leg, and we go on like it’s unusual for a 2nd or a 3rd year player to have a drop in form.

Dow is going to be a gun, and Fisher probably is too.