List Mgmt. 2019 Trade Thread - Part V

[BrutThough]

That's something I noticed since our older stars retired. No-one says much at training. They seem to be a much quieter group than other clubs. I have seen some training sessions of Collingwood, Dees and Richmond and all three are much more vocal.
Geary is an elite trainer you left off. He is a standard setter.

I haven't seen a training session since Hanners got there though so hopefully that changes. I wonder if there wasn't a culture of speaking up because no-one stood out, so no one thought they had the right to speak up. Bruce was pretty good at the vocalising too actually.

Cant believe I forgot Geary since he is probably our best trainer and hardest worker. Definitely sets the standards that you want everyone else following. He would be a lot more vocal than anyone listed.

It wouldn't surprise me if the lack of speaking up goes back to Riewoldt and Joey being such strong leaders and personalities that no one else felt like they had to speak up in meetings or be vocal during training since those two were saying everything that needed to be said. And since we lack a generation of players between those retired guys and that 2013-onwards crop, there was no one in-between that group to be the next pack of leaders to drive those standards when they left - the younger group still weren't mature enough to take on that responsibility and that Newnes/Bruce/Wellers of the world who were given that responsibility just weren't good enough to create and drive a strong culture.

 

[busso_mick]

The intensity at training is definitely someone we need to work on. We have players with that high work ethic who push themselves - Billings, Ross, Sinclair, Steele, Membrey as examples - but none of them are particularly vocal people.

Newnes was always someone who was a good trainer - not one who stood out for being overly intense about things but never looked to be slacking off like you could see in others. Sort of describes him as a footballer where he just blended into everything.

Thee biggest difference is when Hannebery is out on the park, he was so intense with everything he was doing and you could hear his voice throughout the whole of training encouraging and pushing everyone out there a long with him. Even when he was running laps and doing handball drills on the side, he has an intensity about him that was almost infectious to everyone else around him.

I had a chat with Hanners when he was over in Perth recently and I asked him about his first impressions of the Saints. He said that compared to Sydney the most notable thing was how quiet our younger guys were and that probably the 2018 season had made a big dent in everyone's morale.

At the end of the year though he said after the appointment of Ratten that the vibe of the club had noticeably lifted, and a lot of the younger guys were finding their voice in games and at training. This bodes well for the development of our team and also the trajectory of our younger players.

 

[kernelT]

 

[BrutThough]

I had a chat with Hanners when he was over in Perth recently and I asked him about his first impressions of the Saints. He said that compared to Sydney the most notable thing was how quiet our younger guys were and that probably the 2018 season had made a big dent in everyone's morale.

At the end of the year though he said after the appointment of Ratten that the vibe of the club had noticeably lifted, and a lot of the younger guys were finding their voice in games and at training. This bodes well for the development of our team and also the trajectory of our younger players.

Thats great to hear. Confidence and morale must have been low if that's the first and lasting impression from Hanners.
It seems like Ratten is a breath of fresh air around the place and is helping to rebuild the belief of the playing group.

 

[SufferingS8INT]

If he can do a run with job

I’ve said this for a while he would be a good ragged but that’s about it. Has the tank and size to play on a Good midfielder but not enough talent to be a good midfielder.

 

[Nutsngum]

I’ve said this for a while he would be a good ragged but that’s about it. Has the tank and size to play on a Good midfielder but not enough talent to be a good midfielder.

Clint Jones made a career out of this. Problem is modern taggers need to be better at winning the ball as well.

 

[kosifantutti]

Talking about players cut without trying them in different spots, I just saw Hugh Goddard running, he looks to have slimed down quite a lot since his last year with us. Is he still on the Blues list?

You can’t join the Blues unless you slime down.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Talking about players cut without trying them in different spots, I just saw Hugh Goddard running, he looks to have slimed down quite a lot since his last year with us. Is he still on the Blues list?

Maybe we should get Freezer back as well

 

[CaptainRisky]

McKenzie puts his body on the line , I've seen him run blind back into packs a bit more than a few guys on the list , as well the guy blew everyone away last year due to the vast improved performance in his preseason where he become our top time trial runner.
Being 23 and having already played 49 games the guy could well come out of his shell next season or flounder around at Sandringham - but at this stage of his career he is still developing and could surprise us all.

Love to know who he blew away it sure want me and the last time i checked you dont need to win a time trial to be a good footballer , there is no point in him being such a good runner as he rarely runs forward anyway , its always backwards or sideways .
Id be surprised if he played a game next year , there are plenty in front of him

 

[cooperrules]

Excuse me? He's ******* atrocious 1-on-1. How many times did he give up a free goal against Charlie Cameron? What about Betts when we played Adelaide? Any half decent small forward absolutely kills him because he has no sense of balance and falls over if the wind blows the wrong way. Even the one legged David Swallow made him look like an auskicker standing completely stationary in the square.

NIled it

 

[pebblesofsand]

Escape goats - its amazing how they are blamed for everything.

Swallow kicked 2 goals on McKenzie in three quarters - both were a result of not only his poor defensive positioning but incredibly crap defending by his teammates. Charlie Cameron kicked 57 goals last year and made every small defender in the league look second rate.

Always amazed how every player on the list is expected to be a star and @ Pick 108 will always be a better option. Although I suppose we could always delist McKenzie (who only played 15 games last year) and pick a ready made star with Pick 118.

 

[Saintbloke]

I think many players are going to play a lot differently under Ratts

 

[CaptainRisky]

Escape goats - its amazing how they are blamed for everything.

Swallow kicked 2 goals on McKenzie in three quarters - both were a result of not only his poor defensive positioning but incredibly crap defending by his teammates. Charlie Cameron kicked 57 goals last year and made every small defender in the league look second rate.

Always amazed how every player on the list is expected to be a star and @ Pick 108 will always be a better option. Although I suppose we could always delist McKenzie (who only played 15 games last year) and pick a ready made star with Pick 118.

I dont think any of us expect everyone on our list to be a star , i would have thought serviceable would be good enough and im sorry but i just think DMac gives us nothing

 

[gringo2011]

And people wonder why players have mental health issues in the digital age. He's just a kid who might make it or might not. He's had good games in the past and some shockers. I remember Seb Ross used to cop it and 5 years later he still is as people rush to back their own poor judgement over logic.

I don't see the point in rushing to call it. If you don't rate them just ignore them. Football is like natural selection, if you aren't good enough you soon get swallowed up and spat out.

Mc Kenzie is a really good kid, he's pretty gentle type who probably wouldn't take the criticism well. He seems sensitive and considered, not great traits in a footballer. Thinking and consideration probably hinder fast thinking on the footy field.

 

[CaptainRisky]

And people wonder why players have mental health issues in the digital age. He's just a kid who might make it or might not. He's had good games in the past and some shockers. I remember Seb Ross used to cop it and 5 years later he still is as people rush to back their own poor judgement over logic.

I don't see the point in rushing to call it. If you don't rate them just ignore them. Football is like natural selection, if you aren't good enough you soon get swallowed up and spat out.

Mc Kenzie is a really good kid, he's pretty gentle type who probably wouldn't take the criticism well. He seems sensitive and considered, not great traits in a footballer. Thinking and consideration probably hinder fast thinking on the footy field.

Did you really need to play that card , i wasn't attacking him as a person , he is most likely a nice guy but i just dont think his football is at the standard we require , If you think i went a bit to hard on him maybe you should go back and read 90% of your own posts where you launch into just about everyone who has ever worked at the club , just because they maybe older than DMac it doesnt mean they dont get affected too

 

[gringo2011]

Did you really need to play that card , i wasn't attacking him as a person , he is most likely a nice guy but i just dont think his football is at the standard we require , If you think i went a bit to hard on him maybe you should go back and read 90% of your own posts where you launch into just about everyone who has ever worked at the club , just because they maybe older than DMac it doesnt mean they dont get affected too

I have only ever really criticised Trout's ability to draft while working as our head recruiter, I don't think I made it personal ever apart from calling for him to be removed from the role. I don't remember going after all these other people. Trout is a guy who's been around footy for years and had a good run. You are picking on a guy who is in a much more visible and high pressure environment and much more vulnerable age. I try not to bag any player, most are doing their best to make it.

I wasn't even singling you out, just trying to remind people to rein it in. There tends to be a phenomena where every one piles in once the criticism starts.

 

[mightymalaka]

And people wonder why players have mental health issues in the digital age. He's just a kid who might make it or might not. He's had good games in the past and some shockers. I remember Seb Ross used to cop it and 5 years later he still is as people rush to back their own poor judgement over logic.

I don't see the point in rushing to call it. If you don't rate them just ignore them. Football is like natural selection, if you aren't good enough you soon get swallowed up and spat out.

Mc Kenzie is a really good kid, he's pretty gentle type who probably wouldn't take the criticism well. He seems sensitive and considered, not great traits in a footballer. Thinking and consideration probably hinder fast thinking on the footy field.

I gotta say upfront i tend to agree with most of the theme of your post! Ideally we should all be a little more measured when critiquing our players!
And no doubt you are probably referring to my relentless hang ups on Seb! It needs to be noted that there is nothing personal in my criticism!

Just my own perception of what he offers our team within the lofty esteem he is held at the club!
Suppose we all get a little guilty of being hard on our players, some of us more than others!
But one thing i don't want to be reminded of is whether his or any players state of mind might be affected by what we have say in a forum!

Ultimately footy and especially the Saints are a massive passion for all of us and the game has long created some wild behaviour from
Both sides of the fence that you would not do in a normal day to day environment! And most of us understand the difference in these standards!
Would hate to get to a place in a already heavily watered down version of what stirs the blood in all of us to love the game, where we must constantly
Check our I's and our Q's to what is an acceptable form of criticism/sledging!
It's one of those last bastions in life where we can allow ourselves to go a bit feral from time to time! A healthy release you might say!
All within a certain level of reason of course, but as you yourself have found on many occasions the game offers up many and varied reasons
For us to express our love, joy and hate for what we want! We should never feel ashamed or condemned for showing our passion in a team and
Sport that we devote so much of our emotion to!

If anything i fear the Saints supporter base has become far too quiet and reserved over the last decade or so!
We don't need more reasons to hold our tongues! Get back to the intimidating and vociferous bunch we once were!
In my view that's what would help our players self esteem and worth more than anymore mollycoddling of which i sense they
Have had more than enough of from the club itself in recent years!

At the end of the day Gringo my friend, i am reminded by that great philosophical pearl of wisdom from the Simpsons!

You don't win friends with Salad! You don't win friends with salad!

Now get out there Sainters and Bacon up that Sausage! Win us a flag already. We deserve it! ☝

I am now going to bed....As my head hurts from rambling so much nonsensical sh!t about what really i don't know! Feel free to ignore my baffling and
Long winded rant! I'm clearly going insane.......Apologies all....I'm a very tired and confused Malaka!

 

[Crusty Undies]

Escape goats - its amazing how they are blamed for everything.

Swallow kicked 2 goals on McKenzie in three quarters - both were a result of not only his poor defensive positioning but incredibly crap defending by his teammates. Charlie Cameron kicked 57 goals last year and made every small defender in the league look second rate.

Always amazed how every player on the list is expected to be a star and @ Pick 108 will always be a better option. Although I suppose we could always delist McKenzie (who only played 15 games last year) and pick a ready made star with Pick 118.

*scapegoats
Not to mention that Swallow only played forward for the last quarter and a half after injuring his leg. It was directly a resullt of McKenzie's poor defense that Swallow kicked two goals. He was standing stationary in the goalsquare practically unable to weightbear on one leg and still out positioned Dmac TWICE.

Charlie Cameron didn't kick 5 goals against all of his direct opponents, in fact I think there was only one other he did the same too this year.

No one expects McKenzie to be a star, but it is a less skillful position being a small defender than a small forward. I at least expect him to be able to hold his own if his ONLY role is to defend the opponent's small forward. He can't even be used for anything else because his disposal, positioning and awareness are all so awful. Our picks won't be in the 100s, even if they are at the moment, the last pick taken in last year's draft was 78. The kid we take at ~80 has at least a chance of being better than a complete list clogging dead weight.

 

[BrutThough]

*scapegoats
Not to mention that Swallow only played forward for the last quarter and a half after injuring his leg. It was directly a resullt of McKenzie's poor defense that Swallow kicked two goals. He was standing stationary in the goalsquare practically unable to weightbear on one leg and still out positioned Dmac TWICE.

Charlie Cameron didn't kick 5 goals against all of his direct opponents, in fact I think there was only one other he did the same too this year.

No one expects McKenzie to be a star, but it is a less skillful position being a small defender than a small forward. I at least expect him to be able to hold his own if his ONLY role is to defend the opponent's small forward. He can't even be used for anything else because his disposal, positioning and awareness are all so awful. Our picks won't be in the 100s, even if they are at the moment, the last pick taken in last year's draft was 78. The kid we take at ~80 has at least a chance of being better than a complete list clogging dead weight.

Cameron didnt kick 5 directly against McKenzie either, he kicked them against out entire defence.

DMac was off getting treatment on his eye when Cameron kicked 2 or 3 of his goals so it was an entire defence problem yet only one player cops criticism about it. Not that you directly mentioned it, but people were also commenting about his last game playing on Eddie Betts, where he had some goals kicked on him but DMac also did some really nice things that dont get mentioned, and it gets ignored that he also got coaches votes for his job on Betts the first time we played Adelaide. He plays some good games and some bad ones, with the bad ones all coming consecutively in the back half of the year. We need him to get back to his first half of the year form so we have more viable back half options moving forward. He has held his own in defence throughout his career, so we know he is capable of doing so moving forward.

And it is completely unnecessary calling him a list clogging dead weight. He might not be a star player but his effort and commitment can never be questioned, and he has been an important contributor over the past few years.

 

[Crusty Undies]

Cameron didnt kick 5 directly against McKenzie either, he kicked them against out entire defence.

DMac was off getting treatment on his eye when Cameron kicked 2 or 3 of his goals so it was an entire defence problem yet only one player cops criticism about it. Not that you directly mentioned it, but people were also commenting about his last game playing on Eddie Betts, where he had some goals kicked on him but DMac also did some really nice things that dont get mentioned, and it gets ignored that he also got coaches votes for his job on Betts the first time we played Adelaide. He plays some good games and some bad ones, with the bad ones all coming consecutively in the back half of the year. We need him to get back to his first half of the year form so we have more viable back half options moving forward. He has held his own in defence throughout his career, so we know he is capable of doing so moving forward.

And it is completely unnecessary calling him a list clogging dead weight. He might not be a star player but his effort and commitment can never be questioned, and he has been an important contributor over the past few years.

An "important contributor" who was immediately dropped when Ratten came in. He fit the Richo mould of players, triers. He doesn't fit the Ratten mould, skilled users.

 

[BrutThough]

An "important contributor" who was immediately dropped when Ratten came in. He fit the Richo mould of players, triers. He doesn't fit the Ratten mould, skilled users.

And he deserved to be dropped for that game because he was terrible as a defensive forward in Richos last game. That doesnt take away from that fact DMac has also played a lot of good games over the past 2 seasons.

We need more than 22 players who contribute if we want to play finals. And we have seen that DMac can be a good small defender. Just because he isnt best 22 and is more of a back-up type player, doesnt mean he should be constantly ridiculed or chucked to the curve because his opponent kicked a goal on him. If Geary gets injured, we need someone who can step up and fill this role. And if he can do that, then yes, he is an important contributor to our club.

 

[pebblesofsand]

*scapegoats
Not to mention that Swallow only played forward for the last quarter and a half after injuring his leg. It was directly a resullt of McKenzie's poor defense that Swallow kicked two goals. He was standing stationary in the goalsquare practically unable to weightbear on one leg and still out positioned Dmac TWICE.

Charlie Cameron didn't kick 5 goals against all of his direct opponents, in fact I think there was only one other he did the same too this year.

No one expects McKenzie to be a star, but it is a less skillful position being a small defender than a small forward. I at least expect him to be able to hold his own if his ONLY role is to defend the opponent's small forward. He can't even be used for anything else because his disposal, positioning and awareness are all so awful. Our picks won't be in the 100s, even if they are at the moment, the last pick taken in last year's draft was 78. The kid we take at ~80 has at least a chance of being better than a complete list clogging dead weight.

You are obviously confused.

Swallow injured his leg in the first quarter and started playing out of the goal square at the start of the second quarter. McKenzie went to him after he kicked GCS first goal of the 2nd quarter when he matched up by Darragh Joyce who was playing deep defender. So Swallow kicked one on Joyce in 12 minutes and 2 on McKenzie for the rest of the game.

 

[Crusty Undies]

And he deserved to be dropped for that game because he was terrible as a defensive forward in Richos last game. That doesnt take away from that fact DMac has also played a lot of good games over the past 2 seasons.

We need more than 22 players who contribute if we want to play finals. And we have seen that DMac can be a good small defender. Just because he isnt best 22 and is more of a back-up type player, doesnt mean he should be constantly ridiculed or chucked to the curve because his opponent kicked a goal on him. If Geary gets injured, we need someone who can step up and fill this role. And if he can do that, then yes, he is an important contributor to our club.

Stop making shit up, Dmac hasn't played "a lot of good games", he's played some games where he hasn't been actively detrimental. Seems like your standards for a good game are very low. If Geary gets injured then any/all of Webster, Coffield, Paton, Clark, Jones, Wilkie and several others are capable of filling his hole while also providing something more than dmac. I'm not even convinced Geary will be best 22 by the end of the year and probably gets games being captain rather than being the best available.

 

[Crusty Undies]

You are obviously confused.

Swallow injured his leg in the first quarter and started playing out of the goal square at the start of the second quarter. McKenzie went to him after he kicked GCS first goal of the 2nd quarter when he matched up by Darragh Joyce who was playing deep defender. So Swallow kicked one on Joyce in 12 minutes and 2 on McKenzie for the rest of the game.


View attachment 774152

And how much delivery did he get for the rest of the game? How bad was the two dmac gave up vs the one Joyce gave up? Dmac's 2 were absolutely atrocious goals that any serious AFL level defender should've swatted away with their eyes closed.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It's interesting that the real dominant cultural leaders in him and Bruce were shunted from the club. In a side full of soft good boys, Newnes and Bruce seemed to be the social leaders for the bigger group of players. I wonder if they copped the blame for setting low standards or something. Perhaps they bristled against the way they were assessed in Satan's review and were less willing to accept criticism. Someone said that Satan didn't get on with Bruce. Perhaps it's something like that.

Anyway I hope they have it right this time, I'm sick of being shit.

I tend to think that we at Bigfooty way overthink things.
Its probably more that, after the disappointment of 2018 and 19, they reassessed things.
We had King who is probably still a couple of years off performing to his potential, and decided to do , a minirebuild ( i hate the rebuild word ) if you like.
So they are now focused on three years time. Forget about the now.

Bruce will be 30 in three years time.
Newnes the same age as Hill, but has he already started a premature decline?

So now our older players are:
Carlisle 28, who was reportedly shopped, but in any event is undoubtedly talented.
Savage 28, performed strongly, but has a lot breathing down his neck, i'd be surprised if he's still there in 3 years.
Ross 26 Best and Fairest winner
Hannebery 28. A step above Newnes for sure, would they have recruited him if they knew Paddy out/ Steven out and he wouldn't play 2019?
Roberton 28. We will see how he goes.
Webster 26. Same age as Newnes, but performs consistently well. Seems to be one of the first picked each week.
Brown 30. Close to retirement.

After the last two seasons Newnes put himself firmly in the GOP status. Maybe not even GOP , maybe just OP.
Why carry him when we can develop someone else to do that role better.
Bruce is perplexing, i thought they would trade him because they wanted something back in exchange for him, but the pick we got was bleaughh.
We look like going in with a forward line of King , Ryder , and Membrey. What is the succession plan for Ryder. We cant really bank on a replacement.