List Mgmt. 2022 List Management: Draft, Trade and FA

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I still feel that our starting 22 would be stronger if you swapped Hayden Young and Kozzie Pickett on the list - if we’d made that choice in the 2019 draft.
You could then play Brandon Walker in place of Young and slot Pickett in that forward line to provide X factor and be a tackling machine for the next decade.
Jason Taylor of Melbourne is one of the best list managers in the business - his draft record since 2014 or so is outstanding
 
Dockeroo said:
Disagree on this, specifically around the small forwards that we have. I don’t believe they are good enough as a unit to play in a flag winning team. That’s not a slight against them - let’s look at the relative amount of draft capital invested in this area of the ground to get the options we have:
Michael Walters - pick 53 in 2008. Obviously he’s been a star but we hit the jackpot with a pick in the 50s 14 years ago now. Looking to the future, he’s clearly on the wane but still our best small forward in 2022 IMO.
Sam Switkowski - pick 73 as a mature ager in 2017. Very solid player for the position he was taken in the draft. That kind of pick is a total Hail Mary shot though. Despite what champion data says, until he starts kicking 2 goals a game or so, you can’t call him elite.
Lachie Schultz - pick 58 mature ager in 2018. Another solid return so far for the size of the draft investment. Won’t be troubling the AA selectors anytime soon however.
Trav Colyer - future fourth round pick to Essendon in 2018 I think he cost. Good solid citizen again and providing a decent return for what we invested to get him (pretty much nothing).
Michael Frederick - pick 63 in 2019 and looking like a steal. Very promising start to this season but he’s not really a small forward. More of a lead up medium forward what’s hard to match up on.
Mitch Crowden - pick 59 in 2017. Not bad for his draft pick range. Not a world beater though and not really a small forward either. More of a half forward flanker.
Liam Henry - pick 9 matched bid in 2019. probably the only one where substantial draft capital was invested. Also despite having the tag “best small forward in the draft” at the time, he seems to be heading down a different path as a winger/half forward flanker at Fremantle.
Joel Western - pick 54 in 2020, yet to really make much of an impact but early days in fairness to him.

When you look at the top sides like Brisbane, Bulldogs, Dees, they all went and invested significantly in a proper crumbing small forward. Cameron (traded pick 12 to Adelaide), weightman (pick 13) and Pickett (pick 12). We rightly or wrongly have chosen to try fill this area in the cheap with junk picks while spending out top picks on more mids and half backs than those sides like Brayshaw, Cerra, Serong, Young, Chapman, Erasmus, Johnson. For example, would our list look better if we’d taken Kozzie Pickett at 7 in 2020 instead of Hayden Young? Of if we’d grabbed Ian hill instead of sam Sturt in 2018? Maybe, a lot to play out there still.
At the end of the day, if the strategy we have chosen wins a flag then we will look like genuises.
Personally I would love to see us spend our first round pick next year (likely to be around pick 12 or so) on a player like Rachele, or Pickett or even Weightman. Or even trade it for a 23-24 year old elite small forward like Brisbane did with Charlie Cameron in 2018, but only if the right player is available.
Click to expand...

I’m reasonably confident if Sturt wasn’t injured all the time he’d be a better fit for our list than Ian Hill. Hill isn’t even the type of player you’re talking about nor has he actually shown he’s much good at all. Not sure we’d be talking about he at all if he wasn’t related to Stephen and Brad tbh.

Another thing I’ll point out is Brisbane, Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs were a fair way through rebuilds before they pulled the trigger on crumbing forwards. All with picks beyond ten as well. Midfielders and KPFs go early for a reason - they win you games. The type of player you’re speaking of is the cream not the cake. Might be time to start looking at the cream if we make finals this year though.
 

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Docker82 said:
I’m reasonably confident if Sturt wasn’t injured all the time he’d be a better fit for our list than Ian Hill. Hill isn’t even the type of player you’re talking about nor has he actually shown he’s much good at all. Not sure we’d be talking about he at all if he wasn’t related to Stephen and Brad tbh.

Another thing I’ll point out is Brisbane, Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs were a fair way through rebuilds before they pulled the trigger on crumbing forwards. All with picks beyond ten as well. Midfielders and KPFs go early for a reason - they win you games. The type of player you’re speaking of is the cream not the cake. Might be time to start looking at the cream if we make finals this year though.
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Yeah it’s a fair enough point. Brisbane were coming off a pretty stinking season when they pulled the trigger on Cameron though. The type I’m taking about might be a cream on the cake player but I don’t think our current list contain one. Imagine if we had peak Charlie Cameron in the forward 50. Defenders would be shitting a brick if they were isolated one on one with him.
Probably a reasonable talking point - if we finish say 6th this year is it time to put pick 12 up for sale for that type of player?
 
Dockeroo said:
Yeah it’s a fair enough point. Brisbane were coming off a pretty stinking season when they pulled the trigger on Cameron though. The type I’m taking about might be a cream on the cake player but I don’t think our current list contain one. Imagine if we had peak Charlie Cameron in the forward 50. Defenders would be shitting a brick if they were isolated one on one with him.
Probably a reasonable talking point - if we finish say 6th this year is it time to put pick 12 up for sale for that type of player?
Click to expand...
If they're available sure. Cameron was available, they pulled the trigger because a proven gun was there to be had. They weren't mystics or drafting gurus.

#edit: you're completely correct in that we don't have a proven one currently.
 
Dockeroo said:
Disagree on this, specifically around the small forwards that we have. I don’t believe they are good enough as a unit to play in a flag winning team. That’s not a slight against them - let’s look at the relative amount of draft capital invested in this area of the ground to get the options we have:
Michael Walters - pick 53 in 2008. Obviously he’s been a star but we hit the jackpot with a pick in the 50s 14 years ago now. Looking to the future, he’s clearly on the wane but still our best small forward in 2022 IMO.
Sam Switkowski - pick 73 as a mature ager in 2017. Very solid player for the position he was taken in the draft. That kind of pick is a total Hail Mary shot though. Despite what champion data says, until he starts kicking 2 goals a game or so, you can’t call him elite.
Lachie Schultz - pick 58 mature ager in 2018. Another solid return so far for the size of the draft investment. Won’t be troubling the AA selectors anytime soon however.
Trav Colyer - future fourth round pick to Essendon in 2018 I think he cost. Good solid citizen again and providing a decent return for what we invested to get him (pretty much nothing).
Michael Frederick - pick 63 in 2019 and looking like a steal. Very promising start to this season but he’s not really a small forward. More of a lead up medium forward what’s hard to match up on.
Mitch Crowden - pick 59 in 2017. Not bad for his draft pick range. Not a world beater though and not really a small forward either. More of a half forward flanker.
Liam Henry - pick 9 matched bid in 2019. probably the only one where substantial draft capital was invested. Also despite having the tag “best small forward in the draft” at the time, he seems to be heading down a different path as a winger/half forward flanker at Fremantle.
Joel Western - pick 54 in 2020, yet to really make much of an impact but early days in fairness to him.

When you look at the top sides like Brisbane, Bulldogs, Dees, they all went and invested significantly in a proper crumbing small forward. Cameron (traded pick 12 to Adelaide), weightman (pick 13) and Pickett (pick 12). We rightly or wrongly have chosen to try fill this area in the cheap with junk picks while spending out top picks on more mids and half backs than those sides like Brayshaw, Cerra, Serong, Young, Chapman, Erasmus, Johnson. For example, would our list look better if we’d taken Kozzie Pickett at 7 in 2020 instead of Hayden Young? Of if we’d grabbed Ian hill instead of sam Sturt in 2018? Maybe, a lot to play out there still.
At the end of the day, if the strategy we have chosen wins a flag then we will look like genuises.
Personally I would love to see us spend our first round pick next year (likely to be around pick 12 or so) on a player like Rachele, or Pickett or even Weightman. Or even trade it for a 23-24 year old elite small forward like Brisbane did with Charlie Cameron in 2018, but only if the right player is available.
Click to expand...

Walters, Henry, Colyer, Crowden, Western aren’t really small forwards though…. As in that’s not their natural position. A REAL forward is a natural forward, think LeCras, Buddy, Papley, Betts.
You’d never play them anywhere else because they just know how to football and where the goals are. That’s why I rate Treacy so highly he’s an actual forward that just knows how to football.

That’s the type we need now. As someone else said, we need the cream next draft. As you said next pick for us should be a genuine goal kicking forward pocket IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
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Dockeroo said:
Yeah it’s a fair enough point. Brisbane were coming off a pretty stinking season when they pulled the trigger on Cameron though. The type I’m taking about might be a cream on the cake player but I don’t think our current list contain one. Imagine if we had peak Charlie Cameron in the forward 50. Defenders would be shitting a brick if they were isolated one on one with him.
Probably a reasonable talking point - if we finish say 6th this year is it time to put pick 12 up for sale for that type of player?
Click to expand...

Has to be the right player. Not sure who you are suggesting tbh. Can we afford a guy on a larger salary long term once we give our best youngsters higher paid contracts?

Best thing to do may be to pull the trigger in the draft and do our best to get this player playing consistent footy in their first two years. As a first round draft pick this is more than possible but maybe not probable.

FWIW I recall listening to a list management expert a few years ago saying the forward line is generally the last thing a rebuilding team gets right. This is generally due to rebuilding teams starting their future gun mids in the forward line early in their career. Only when the rebuild is almost complete do the real forwards move in (of course all this doesn’t apply to KPPs).
 
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BigRang said:
Walters, Henry, Colyer, Crowden, Western aren’t really small forwards though…. As in that’s not their natural position. A REAL forward is a natural forward, think LeCras, Buddy, Papley, Betts.
You’d never play them anywhere else because they just know how to football and where the goals are. That’s why I rate Treacy so highly he’s an actual forward that just knows how to football.

That’s the type we need now. As someone else said, we need the cream next draft. As you said next pick for us should be a genuine goal kicking forward picket IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Click to expand...
Western is definitely a small forward just look at his draft highlights video. I hope that he can be a replacement for Colyer but he is still a while away.
 
Docker82 said:
Has to be the right player. Not sure who you are suggesting tbh. Can we afford a guy on a larger salary long term once we give our best youngsters higher paid contracts?

Best thing to do may be to pull the trigger in the draft and do our best to get this player playing consistent footy in their first two years. As a first round draft pick this is more than possible but maybe not probable.

FWIW I recall listening to a list management expert a few years ago saying the forward line is generally the last thing a rebuilding team gets right. This is generally due to rebuilding teams starting their future gun mids in the forward line early in their career. Only when the rebuild is almost complete do the real forwards move in (of course all this doesn’t apply to KPPs).
Click to expand...
Yeah I don’t know who might be available. Still a bit to play out before trade week. Cap space surely isn’t an issue since Cerra left. If Lobb also leaves which seems likely then there should be plenty of space in the cap for at least one decent recruit. We haven’t traded in any big money guys in recent years apart from Hogan and he’s gone off the payroll! Carlton by contrast seem to pony up a couple of big contracts every year via trade (McGovern, Martin, Williams, Cerra, Saad) and still remain under the cap whilst also paying Mackay, Cripps and Walsh and weitering so I can’t see how we could be struggling in that regard.
 
Dockeroo said:
I still feel that our starting 22 would be stronger if you swapped Hayden Young and Kozzie Pickett on the list - if we’d made that choice in the 2019 draft.
You could then play Brandon Walker in place of Young and slot Pickett in that forward line to provide X factor and be a tackling machine for the next decade.
Jason Taylor of Melbourne is one of the best list managers in the business - his draft record since 2014 or so is outstanding
Click to expand...
Geez going incredibly early on Young there. He's barely had a chance to show his full potential due to injury.
 

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Is Jed Hagan a small forward or more of a midfielder that has the height of one? Could be a good option to get at the draft.
 
Dump Truck said:
Is Jed Hagan a small forward or more of a midfielder that has the height of one? Could be a good option to get at the draft.
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Probably played half back more than anything in recent years. But is good as a midfielder as well. Is talented so could probably play as a forward but not sure he's a natural forward type.
 
wahooo said:
Geez going incredibly early on Young there. He's barely had a chance to show his full potential due to injury.
Click to expand...
I’m a fan of young. I think he’s a very talented player and hopefully had a big career ahead. But how many people would select him ahead of Pickett right now given what he have seen? Fully accept it’s very early days for the 2019 draft but it’s useful to look at the neutral view on these type of debates.
Over on the draft and trade board, they have started a thread redoing the 2019 draft after 2 full seasons of play. Only a few comments yet but most have Pickett in the top 5, up there with Serong Jackson and Rowell.
A lot depends on where Young ends up playing. If he becomes an elite midfielder he’s immediately more valuable. If he spends his career at half back, he could win 5 AA but you’d still take an inside mid like Fyfe ahead of him who only wins 2 or 3…
 
Dockeroo said:
I’m a fan of young. I think he’s a very talented player and hopefully had a big career ahead. But how many people would select him ahead of Pickett right now given what he have seen? Fully accept it’s very early days for the 2019 draft but it’s useful to look at the neutral view on these type of debates.
Over on the draft and trade board, they have started a thread redoing the 2019 draft after 2 full seasons of play. Only a few comments yet but most have Pickett in the top 5, up there with Serong Jackson and Rowell.
A lot depends on where Young ends up playing. If he becomes an elite midfielder he’s immediately more valuable. If he spends his career at half back, he could win 5 AA but you’d still take an inside mid like Fyfe ahead of him who only wins 2 or 3…
Click to expand...
Who do you think was more important to Melbourne winning the Grand Final last year? Pickett (with 4 touches) or Melbourne's half backs (eg Salem with 27 touches)?
 
Dockeroo said:
I’m a fan of young. I think he’s a very talented player and hopefully had a big career ahead. But how many people would select him ahead of Pickett right now given what he have seen? Fully accept it’s very early days for the 2019 draft but it’s useful to look at the neutral view on these type of debates.
Over on the draft and trade board, they have started a thread redoing the 2019 draft after 2 full seasons of play. Only a few comments yet but most have Pickett in the top 5, up there with Serong Jackson and Rowell.
A lot depends on where Young ends up playing. If he becomes an elite midfielder he’s immediately more valuable. If he spends his career at half back, he could win 5 AA but you’d still take an inside mid like Fyfe ahead of him who only wins 2 or 3…
Click to expand...
The club has shown almost no inclination to experiment with players in alternative positions so I would assume he stays where he is. And with the others back there I would be expecting a really good career.
 
I'm not sure Melbourne is the team you should point to if you're trying to argue for spending top picks on forward line players.
After Kossie (pick 12) it's MacDonald (pick 53), Fritsch (pick 31), Spargo (pick 29), Neal-Bullen (pick 40), Brown (traded for about pick 33).
Meanwhile their backline is May (traded for pick 6), Lever (traded for pick 10 and a future first), Salem (pick 9), Hibberd (traded for about pick 29), Rivers (pick32), Petty (pick37)
 
Eski3 said:
The club said we would grab one if we copped some kind of injury on the weekend, so with us being healthy across the ground I think they want to take it it to the MSD and assess our depth, injuries and needs then.

If we go Rogers and lose all our forwards and Schlensog is going at 4 goals a game we will be kicking ourselves
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We had the chance to select him last season in the MSD, but left him.
Not sure just how the club will take him now, unless they think he has improved immensely.
 
anchor man said:
We had the chance to select him last season in the MSD, but left him.
Not sure just how the club will take him now, unless they think he has improved immensely.
Click to expand...

IIRC at that time he was mainly playing in defence. It wasn't until the back half of the season that he was moved forward and started kicking bags.
 
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