List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[go_the_dockers]

So AFL to introduce a mid season trade period.

Just the type of thing to * a non-victorian team that requires stability up.

They actually mentioned non Vic sides so they are aware it would favour the Vic's like free agency and greater player movement.

But very hard to counter the advantage.

 

[Dockeroo]

We have one natural goal kicker under 30. That sums up our issue.

Yep this.
There’s really just two types of footballers in AFL when you strip it back, people who are born to kick goals, and everyone else.

On our current list:

Natural goalscorers, who look like it comes easy to them, regularly kicking bags, dripping with genuine forward craft around the goals -
Jye Amiss
Michael Walters




Honest battlers who might slowly drag themselves to 30 goals a season in a good year without ever looking too convincing -

Everyone else.

This is our biggest list problem by a country mile. We have somehow landed at the end of a list build with one player under 30 with genuine forward craft at AFL level on the list. Unbelievable.

 

[Spirit Level]

Yep this.
There’s really just two types of footballers in AFL when you strip it back, people who are born to kick goals, and everyone else.

On our current list:

Natural goalscorers, who look like it comes easy to them, regularly kicking bags, dripping with genuine forward craft around the goals -
Jye Amiss
Michael Walters




Honest battlers who might slowly drag themselves to 30 goals a season in a good year without ever looking too convincing -

Everyone else.

This is our biggest list problem by a country mile. We have somehow landed at the end of a list build with one player under 30 with genuine forward craft at AFL level on the list. Unbelievable.

I would add Luke Jackson to that list tbh, he has an insane ability to find the goals

 

[go_the_dockers]

I would add Luke Jackson to that list tbh, he has an insane ability to find the goals

I don't think he will kick 30 plus goals a year consistently. In reality, we need 3 people able to kick 35+ goals a year and we have one under 33.

 

[WilloTree]

Yep this.
There’s really just two types of footballers in AFL when you strip it back, people who are born to kick goals, and everyone else.

On our current list:

Natural goalscorers, who look like it comes easy to them, regularly kicking bags, dripping with genuine forward craft around the goals -
Jye Amiss
Michael Walters




Honest battlers who might slowly drag themselves to 30 goals a season in a good year without ever looking too convincing -

Everyone else.

This is our biggest list problem by a country mile. We have somehow landed at the end of a list build with one player under 30 with genuine forward craft at AFL level on the list. Unbelievable.

Schultz is OK, but I get your point.

 

[chinggis77]

So much angst still about our forward line. I reckon it looks decent. Our biggest concern is the lack of damaging midfielders/wings that can kick goals and this year its also been our defense. We are actually in the top 8 for our offense (points scored) but bottom 5 for our defense (points conceded).

With respect to goalkicking - look at Collingwood's top goalkickers - Mihocek with 29, then Hill with 20 and Elliott with 17 compared to our top three in Amiss (29), Walters (25), Schultz (19).

The difference is Collingwood have a much broader range of goalkickers that chip in with midfielders like Daicos, De Goey, Hoskin Elliot, Adams all contributing 38 goals in total between them. Thats almost double what our top 4 midfielders contribute (Brayshaw, O'Meara, Serong, Aish - 21 goals).

Ditto for Port - their top goalscorer only has 29 goals (Finlayson) with Marshall (21) and Dixon (18) next best. Their top 4 midfielders incl Rozee/Butters contribute over 40 goals.

Its the overreliance on our forwards, and the predictibility that creates that is a major problem for us in the front half. How often do we see midfielders getting on the end of a chain of possessions and kicking goals or receiving the ball around the 50 and scoring? The goals I do recall our midfielders kicking are mostly from forward stoppages or getting forward for a mark inside 50. Whatever happened to running the ball to 50 and having a ping rather than always kicking it from outside 50 to a forward 50 target? Its like a basketball team just lobbing it to their center every time.

Yeah, we can get better in offense. Maybe Erasmus, who was a natural goalkicking mid at junior levels, may help in time. Hopefully O'Driscoll rediscovers his mojo and takes a step up too as he can be that damaging goalkicking mid. But we need more from our mids, in particularly our wings. Aish/Henry are not particularly damaging. Another natural small forward would be great.

That said, I think our biggest issue this year has been defense. We are bottom 5 this year and have leaked goals. Part of that is a lack of team defensive effort in a lot of games where we give up and end up getting blown out, possibly a sign of a young team or coaching/game plan weakness. Possibly also Pearce has been a bit out of touch/not fully fit and Cox has at times been his lackadaisical self.

 

[ignoramus]

We are actually in the top 8 for our offense (points scored)

Don't disagree with your broader point about goal-kicking mids, but the ladder I'm looking at suggests we're 11th for points for.

 

[Hazelsnuts]

So much angst still about our forward line. I reckon it looks decent. Our biggest concern is the lack of damaging midfielders/wings that can kick goals and this year its also been our defense. We are actually in the top 8 for our offense (points scored) but bottom 5 for our defense (points conceded).

With respect to goalkicking - look at Collingwood's top goalkickers - Mihocek with 29, then Hill with 20 and Elliott with 17 compared to our top three in Amiss (29), Walters (25), Schultz (19).

The difference is Collingwood have a much broader range of goalkickers that chip in with midfielders like Daicos, De Goey, Hoskin Elliot, Adams all contributing 38 goals in total between them. Thats almost double what our top 4 midfielders contribute (Brayshaw, O'Meara, Serong, Aish - 21 goals).

Ditto for Port - their top goalscorer only has 29 goals (Finlayson) with Marshall (21) and Dixon (18) next best. Their top 4 midfielders incl Rozee/Butters contribute over 40 goals.

Its the overreliance on our forwards, and the predictibility that creates that is a major problem for us in the front half. How often do we see midfielders getting on the end of a chain of possessions and kicking goals or receiving the ball around the 50 and scoring? The goals I do recall our midfielders kicking are mostly from forward stoppages or getting forward for a mark inside 50. Whatever happened to running the ball to 50 and having a ping rather than always kicking it from outside 50 to a forward 50 target? Its like a basketball team just lobbing it to their center every time.

Yeah, we can get better in offense. Maybe Erasmus, who was a natural goalkicking mid at junior levels, may help in time. Hopefully O'Driscoll rediscovers his mojo and takes a step up too as he can be that damaging goalkicking mid. But we need more from our mids, in particularly our wings. Aish/Henry are not particularly damaging. Another natural small forward would be great.

That said, I think our biggest issue this year has been defense. We are bottom 5 this year and have leaked goals. Part of that is a lack of team defensive effort in a lot of games where we give up and end up getting blown out, possibly a sign of a young team or coaching/game plan weakness. Possibly also Pearce has been a bit out of touch/not fully fit and Chapman has at times been his lackadaisical self.

Totally agree with the comments regarding poor team defence, and Pearce being quite poor.
My biggest concern is Brennan Cox, just doesn’t seem himself at the moment, I wonder if there is more to it with contract negotiations and/or a return to SA ??

 

[theGav56]

Yep this.
There’s really just two types of footballers in AFL when you strip it back, people who are born to kick goals, and everyone else.

On our current list:

Natural goalscorers, who look like it comes easy to them, regularly kicking bags, dripping with genuine forward craft around the goals -
Jye Amiss
Michael Walters




Honest battlers who might slowly drag themselves to 30 goals a season in a good year without ever looking too convincing -

Everyone else.

This is our biggest list problem by a country mile. We have somehow landed at the end of a list build with one player under 30 with genuine forward craft at AFL level on the list. Unbelievable.

Treacy is 20 and still developing. Focus on his development as a goal kicking forward and I think he can produce.

 

[apuchar]

I suppose you have to ask if our midfield runs hard enough to hit the scoreboard. I haven't really paid any attention to it this year but last year it appeaed that the opposition mids got back into our forwardline before our mids got there.

 

[Dockeroo]

I suppose you have to ask if our midfield runs hard enough to hit the scoreboard. I haven't really paid any attention to it this year but last year it appeaed that the opposition mids got back into our forwardline before our mids got there.

The points on the lack of goals from the midfield are true. We have some quality players in there like Serong but the guy turns into a hack when kicking for goal. He’s got no composure and just throws it on the boot in the general direction of the sticks. I love Serong but he’s got pretty much no goalscoring nous whatsoever.
Brayshaw has show a moderate ability to kick goals on the run I guess. He’s a 5 or 6/10 player when it comes to kicking goals. It’s helpful, but most teams have someone like that.
Richmond had Riewoldt Lynch and Bolton plus dusty from the mids just piling on goals at their best.
Geelong similar.
All our focus should be on uncovering more goalscorers from now on.

 

[Taylor]

It's really rare to have midfielders running at the forward fifty unchallenged for them to kick over the top, especially now since you can be sure there is a defender in the goal square at the bounce. It happens but it's not common.

I believe most midfielders kicking goals comes from stoppage play inside the forward 80m zone. We definitely have the midfielders running to the 45m out dead in front zone when the ball is on the flank - they just never get it kicked to them - we prefer the long kick into the pocket or the corner of the goal square.

I don't think we score enough from stoppages inside the forward fifty.

 

[Dockeroo]

It's really rare to have midfielders running at the forward fifty unchallenged for them to kick over the top, especially now since you can be sure there is a defender in the goal square at the bounce. It happens but it's not common.

I believe most midfielders kicking goals comes from stoppage play inside the forward 80m zone. We definitely have the midfielders running to the 45m out dead in front zone when the ball is on the flank - they just never get it kicked to them - we prefer the long kick into the pocket or the corner of the goal square.

I don't think we score enough from stoppages inside the forward fifty.

If we had someone like Charlie cameron or Rankine under Darcy’s taps in F50 they would score so much.

 

[pK75]

So much angst still about our forward line. I reckon it looks decent. Our biggest concern is the lack of damaging midfielders/wings that can kick goals and this year its also been our defense. We are actually in the top 8 for our offense (points scored) but bottom 5 for our defense (points conceded).

With respect to goalkicking - look at Collingwood's top goalkickers - Mihocek with 29, then Hill with 20 and Elliott with 17 compared to our top three in Amiss (29), Walters (25), Schultz (19).

The difference is Collingwood have a much broader range of goalkickers that chip in with midfielders like Daicos, De Goey, Hoskin Elliot, Adams all contributing 38 goals in total between them. Thats almost double what our top 4 midfielders contribute (Brayshaw, O'Meara, Serong, Aish - 21 goals).

Ditto for Port - their top goalscorer only has 29 goals (Finlayson) with Marshall (21) and Dixon (18) next best. Their top 4 midfielders incl Rozee/Butters contribute over 40 goals.

Its the overreliance on our forwards, and the predictibility that creates that is a major problem for us in the front half. How often do we see midfielders getting on the end of a chain of possessions and kicking goals or receiving the ball around the 50 and scoring? The goals I do recall our midfielders kicking are mostly from forward stoppages or getting forward for a mark inside 50. Whatever happened to running the ball to 50 and having a ping rather than always kicking it from outside 50 to a forward 50 target? Its like a basketball team just lobbing it to their center every time.

Yeah, we can get better in offense. Maybe Erasmus, who was a natural goalkicking mid at junior levels, may help in time. Hopefully O'Driscoll rediscovers his mojo and takes a step up too as he can be that damaging goalkicking mid. But we need more from our mids, in particularly our wings. Aish/Henry are not particularly damaging. Another natural small forward would be great.

That said, I think our biggest issue this year has been defense. We are bottom 5 this year and have leaked goals. Part of that is a lack of team defensive effort in a lot of games where we give up and end up getting blown out, possibly a sign of a young team or coaching/game plan weakness. Possibly also Pearce has been a bit out of touch/not fully fit and Chapman has at times been his lackadaisical self.

Think you meant cox in that last sentence?
Anyway, totally agree, we need mids prepared (and capable) of having a ping on the run from 50, it makes it much harder to defend against, at the moment opposing defenders don’t come out at our mids because they know we are going to try to pass or bomb to the top of the square. It makes us way too predictable. Clark has the occasional shot, but isn’t that accurate, can’t think of anyone else who attempts it with any regularity.

 

[Taylor]

If we had someone like Charlie cameron or Rankine under Darcy’s taps in F50 they would score so much.

I think you're right. There's only one ruckman in the competition with more score launches than Sean Darcy and that's Reilly O'Brien. Lachie Neale sits all by himself at 3rd (the only non ruckman in the top ten) which to me says they are in desperate need of a ruck who can win hands to the ball first.

This is where Tyler Brockman will shine.

 

[apuchar]

Think you meant cox in that last sentence?
Anyway, totally agree, we need mids prepared (and capable) of having a ping on the run from 50, it makes it much harder to defend against, at the moment opposing defenders don’t come out at our mids because they know we are going to try to pass or bomb to the top of the square. It makes us way too predictable. Clark has the occasional shot, but isn’t that accurate, can’t think of anyone else who attempts it with any regularity.

O'Driscoll is the one we need to get back to his best. He has the potential to be a goal kicking wingman, mid.

 

[Purple Jesus]

We are one damaging small forward like a Charlie Cameron

23

Charlie Cameron

Age

30

Ht

180cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.1

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.6

2star

K

7.9

3star

HB

1.7

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.2

4star

, Eddie Betts, Rankine or Rachele etc away from a really dangerous forwardline. Miraculously.

 

[go_the_dockers]

We are one damaging small forward like a Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts, Rankine or Rachele etc away from a really dangerous forwardline. Miraculously.

One gun forward, and one mid, who is good for 25 plus goals a year.

A line breaking mid would be great as well.

 

[StingBitten]

I think Duff really captured it all on SEN WA this morning. Every player we lost we've accounted for in some way bar Mundy, with O'Meara ending up a replacement for Brodie (which we never asked for).

With Fyfe out of commission most of the year we're missing hardened, big-bodied midfielders. Only real solution is pumping games into Johnson and Erasmus who will fill that frame long-term.

 

[Tonga Bob]

Another year for Johnno.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I think Duff really captured it all on SEN WA this morning. Every player we lost we've accounted for in some way bar Mundy, with O'Meara ending up a replacement for Brodie (which we never asked for).

With Fyfe out of commission most of the year we're missing hardened, big-bodied midfielders. Only real solution is pumping games into Johnson and Erasmus who will fill that frame long-term.

Do we have enough pace in our midfield?

Do we have enough class in our forward line?

I think the answer is no, the question is how many players do we need and do they all need to be A graders?

 

[freo_leo29]

Another year for Johnno.

Contract definitely would have been bumped in 24 and 25 through this but that happens when a player looks like he is gonna be a star

 

[Ysaye]

Do we have enough pace in our midfield?

Do we have enough class in our forward line?

I think the answer is no, the question is how many players do we need and do they all need to be A graders?

Just concentrating on the (centre clearance) midfield speed (and other characteristics) and taking the top teams at the moment:

Collingwood midfield: Pendlebury (192cm, good kick, average speed) Nick Daicos (184cm, good kick, average speed = 2.98sec 20m sprint) Tom Mitchell (182cm, average kick, average speed) Jack Crisp (190cm, good kick, good speed = telstra top 3 tracker 2019 for Collingwood).

Port midfield: Willem Drew (188cm, good kick, average speed), Jason Horne Francis (185cm, good kick, average speed) Connor Rozee (185cm, good kick, good speed = Top 3 Telstra 2021 fastest player for Port), Ollie Wines (190cm, average kick, average speed)

Brisbane midfield: Lachie Neale (178cm, average kick, average speed), Josh Dunkley (191cm, good kick, average speed), Jaspa Fletcher (183cm, average speed, good kick) Will Ashcroft (182cm, good speed, good kick).

Melbourne midfield: Jack Viney (178cm, average kick, average speed), James Harmes (185cm, average kick, average speed), Kysiah Pickett (171cm, good kick, good speed), Christian Petracca (186cm, good kick, average speed) ( Pickett was named last week but arguably replaced in strongest lineup with *Clayton Oliver 189cm, average kick, average speed).

I would have said Freo centre clearance team atm was predominantly:
Fremantle midfield: Caleb Serong (179cm, average kick, average speed), Andrew Brayshaw (185cm, average kick, average speed), Jaeger O'Meara (183cm, good kick, average speed), Matthew Johnson (192cm, good kick, good speed).

For mine, it is not speed that is the differentiator and nor is it size. It is maybe centre clearance kicking, years' experience and maybe centre clearance strategy.

Shock Tracker results: Your speed machines, endurance beasts

How does your team and players fare in the Telstra Tracker stats?

www.afl.com.au

Speed kings: Telstra Tracker reveals your club's fastest player in 2021

Who is the quickest player at your club? We have the answer, thanks to Telstra Tracker data

www.afl.com.au

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I really think people are vastly overstating the talent we need. It needs players with games behind them and it needs everyone on the same page and that will make a huge difference.

If you think Walls is good at his job and like the players we have well we’ve been rebuilding since 2016. The list has underperformed this year but it’s close.

 

[mattis117]

I really think people are vastly overstating the talent we need. It needs players with games behind them and it needs everyone on the same page and that will make a huge difference.

If you think Walls is good at his job and like the players we have well we’ve been rebuilding since 2016. The list has underperformed this year but it’s close.

I personally believe we have most of the right pieces already, we just have to be patient.
We basically need our 2021 draft class in their fourth year, we'll improve next year, and we should attack 2025 with intent. That's the first year our list will open its window, and it will last for a while.

While we've lost players to retirement/other clubs, we've also lost O'Driscoll, Chapman, and Brodie who are injured or aren't the players they were last season. We've effectively lost 8 players from last season and their replacements aren't ready. Hope we get these three back in form next year.