List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[TENACIOUS]

Agree. Harry's problem is in his head. It is fixable. He just needs to work really hard on it and he will be something that every team in the comp would want. You don't shy away from development, you just need to work on it. Probably a focus for him during the off-season.

He needs to stop listening to the outside noise…

Find a technique that he is
1. Comfortable with
2. Is repeatable
3. Performs under pressure

Then stick with it!!!

 

[thylacine60]

He needs to stop listening to the outside noise…

Find a technique that he is
1. Comfortable with
2. Is repeatable
3. Performs under pressure

Then stick with it!!!

the irony is hilarious........

 

[TENACIOUS]

the irony is hilarious........

Please… like anything we say on here is relevant to any player…

 

[thylacine60]

Please… like anything we say on here is relevant to any player…

excuse me? I've been told (fact) the hullabaloo made by bigfooty carlton "supporters" was a major reason for our turn around.......

 

[TENACIOUS]

excuse me? I've been told (fact) the hullabaloo made by bigfooty carlton "supporters" was a major reason for our turn around.......

 

[JustaBattler]

Food for thought… the “yips” are seen as a medical condition by the Mayo Clinic.
Some amazing golfers had there careers cut short after reaching massive heights- Snead, Hogan, Duval, O’Meara, Langer, Baker Finch (all major winners) had careers cut short/went missing for large chunks.
And there’s a hell of a lot more variables (+ pressure from a team sport & a crowd) kicking a footy than putting.
Just do some work and it will fix itself - is a very simplistic view.
That said, u can also develop a routine, build confidence & start slotting it from 55 at goal post height.

Point is, it’s a valid concern, not saying it should keep us up at night but it’s fair to raise it.

Yips is a lay peson's word for specific performance anxiety disorder. Yep it is a real thing - but fairly easily overcome with the right help. As far as your list of golfers goes - the only one that genuinely qualifies for teh yips is Baker Finch - but it wasn't just his putting that was affected...

1. Snead won 83 PGA tour events and finished 3rd in the PGA championship when he was 62 - old age retired Snead - he did change his putting stroke to a between teh legs stroke when it was still legal and then switched to a side saddle stroke - but that was very late in his career - old age retired Sammy - when 62 was old.

2. Hogan retired ( effectively) after he won the triple at the age of 53 - this after of course an car accident which saw him break both pelvises, and other bones as well as incur many blodclots all of which threatened his life. He played on and won tournaments despite being in constant pain from his injuries including poor circulation - Hogan never had the yips - his putting was just ordinary compared to the rest of his game and he didn't 'like' that - famous for declaring that the game would be better of every player was just given two strokes to finish the hole once the ball was on the green - Hogan retired because he could make more money selling his golf Clubs and physically was just not uop to walking golf courses - he could still hit a 5 iron better than. most players in his seventies...

3. Duval had back and wrist injuries and also suffered vertigo as well as a troubled personal life - no yips.

4. OMeara retired when he could no longer hit a long ball- pretty much went public about it after his last Masters - age got him.

5. Langer is still making heaps of money on the champions tour - he has used a long putter for years- no yips

6. Baker Finch had performance anxiety big time- not only affected his putting but every other shot in the book - Ive played a round with him a few years ago- he shot 3 under on the day - he just couldn't handle the pressure of having to perform in public. You could say he had the 'yips' but it affected all his game in tournament golf.

Every player at elite level has to overcome performance anxiety and every player has their ups and downs - Harry's first shot hitting the behind post was just bad luck - his second shot I would say is classic yips that was a howler-and I have no doubt that it would have given him psychological pain - the rest of his game shows no evidence of yips and is very valuable to teh team - the kicking will come back as soon as he allows himself to miss -right now he is kicking in teh 30% range - if he allows himself the comfort of making 50% of his shots he will get back to 60% in time- but his weakness has always been kicking from teh left side of the posts - that is a technical execution flaw that can be fixed .

One final thing- the difference between a pro golfer and a really good amateur- is very simple and boils down to how many 12 foot puts over 4 rounds can the player expect to make. Every player will miss teh occasional 3 footer - but the players in real form on a green will manage to sink the 12 footers- which have a less than 15% chance of rolling in on average at much greater than average hit rate. That is why golf is a game within a game. Th inability to make 'enough' 12 footers to compete against those who do - is what separates teh money makers from those who dont- and when a person knows in their heart that they really dont know how to make teh 12 footer often enough - they try and compensate by getting it closer - which becomes low percentage golf and makes things worse - happens all the time with pros.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Late 2nd round at best for each of them. Fish is going for $, longer contract & mid minutes, Dow a place in a midfield. Neither are thought of as best 22 & realistically we will take 3rd round for Dow. I think Dow ends up at the Pies for *all, think it’s the wrong move for us but that’s just MO

Totally agree with that assessment. Hoping maybe we can package up a few of those 3rd rounders for a GC pick (they're after points).

Or maybe even upgrade our 1st rounder (from 18).

 

[CrazyJoeFevola]

Yes Harry has the yips big time. I don’t know why he didn’t go around the corner for the set shot. It works for him and he should do it. He’s invaluable as an old fashioned CHF though, no way we get rid of him unless it’s a godfather type offer.

Seperate to all that, I really hope he’s getting the love and support he needs right now. With the concussion and the bullshit he’s been copping left right and centre on social media, mostly from fat flogs who probably can’t even kick a drop punt, I really do worry about him at the moment.

 

[HarryFlashman]

Yips is a lay peson's word for specific performance anxiety disorder. Yep it is a real thing - but fairly easily overcome with the right help. As far as your list of golfers goes - the only one that genuinely qualifies for teh yips is Baker Finch - but it wasn't just his putting that was affected...

1. Snead won 83 PGA tour events and finished 3rd in the PGA championship when he was 62 - old age retired Snead - he did change his putting stroke to a between teh legs stroke when it was still legal and then switched to a side saddle stroke - but that was very late in his career - old age retired Sammy - when 62 was old.

2. Hogan retired ( effectively) after he won the triple at the age of 53 - this after of course an car accident which saw him break both pelvises, and other bones as well as incur many blodclots all of which threatened his life. He played on and won tournaments despite being in constant pain from his injuries including poor circulation - Hogan never had the yips - his putting was just ordinary compared to the rest of his game and he didn't 'like' that - famous for declaring that the game would be better of every player was just given two strokes to finish the hole once the ball was on the green - Hogan retired because he could make more money selling his golf Clubs and physically was just not uop to walking golf courses - he could still hit a 5 iron better than. most players in his seventies...

3. Duval had back and wrist injuries and also suffered vertigo as well as a troubled personal life - no yips.

4. OMeara retired when he could no longer hit a long ball- pretty much went public about it after his last Masters - age got him.

5. Langer is still making heaps of money on the champions tour - he has used a long putter for years- no yips

6. Baker Finch had performance anxiety big time- not only affected his putting but every other shot in the book - Ive played a round with him a few years ago- he shot 3 under on the day - he just couldn't handle the pressure of having to perform in public. You could say he had the 'yips' but it affected all his game in tournament golf.

Every player at elite level has to overcome performance anxiety and every player has their ups and downs - Harry's first shot hitting the behind post was just bad luck - his second shot I would say is classic yips that was a howler-and I have no doubt that it would have given him psychological pain - the rest of his game shows no evidence of yips and is very valuable to teh team - the kicking will come back as soon as he allows himself to miss -right now he is kicking in teh 30% range - if he allows himself the comfort of making 50% of his shots he will get back to 60% in time- but his weakness has always been kicking from teh left side of the posts - that is a technical execution flaw that can be fixed .

One final thing- the difference between a pro golfer and a really good amateur- is very simple and boils down to how many 12 foot puts over 4 rounds can the player expect to make. Every player will miss teh occasional 3 footer - but the players in real form on a green will manage to sink the 12 footers- which have a less than 15% chance of rolling in on average at much greater than average hit rate. That is why golf is a game within a game. Th inability to make 'enough' 12 footers to compete against those who do - is what separates teh money makers from those who dont- and when a person knows in their heart that they really dont know how to make teh 12 footer often enough - they try and compensate by getting it closer - which becomes low percentage golf and makes things worse - happens all the time with pros.

Surprisingly the yips is also a neurological condition - not just anxiety related
Point behind the golfers was that they all achieved at the highest level, however at their peak (or there about) then struggled in real ways at a skill they performed very well before that. And the “fix” wasn’t easy or simple.

Source data
Mayo Clinic

Yips - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

Golf Yips

Ranking the 10 Worst Cases of the Yips in Golf History

The Yips. No one in golf wants them, and few are the same after contracting them. History contends the term was coined by the great Tommy Armour , who is one of the most significant golfers throughout history to have suffered from them...

syndication.bleacherreport.com

 

[RPCB]

Had a Swans supporter tell me he’s been saying Harry is awful all year and that we should trade him. Some people genuinely have no idea.

We seem to be the only club that opposition supporters think we should trade one of our two big forwards when we have seen plenty of evidence that clubs have won flags over the last 20 years with two big forwards. Nuts.

 

[Monty1978]

A guy just entering his prime

Imagine if we traded Charlie after people suggested he would never reach the heights of his current output. Or when he was kicking poorly for goal

I mean, surely we could get 4 x 1st rounders, save some cap space and go back to the draft to replicate the same player

One of my mates after round 1-2 last year said Drop charlie n we still give him shite about it today …some people have no idea …..for me to trade harry I want a player in return and it would have to be an A grader butters like and that’s not happening

 

[BlueJet]

Personally, I don't think we've done a fantastic job of integrating the two kpf into the one forward setup.
With the attributes the two have, with a more fluid setup between CHF & FF we're more than capable of tearing defences apart & getting both H & C firing.

 

[Arr0w]

One of my mates after round 1-2 last year said Drop charlie n we still give him shite about it today …some people have no idea …..for me to trade harry I want a player in return and it would have to be an A grader butters like and that’s not happening

Still need a KPF though, so if we were trading with Port, I would ask for Lord as part of the deal

One thing to contemplate a trade, even though I would never put up McKay unless we already had a viable replacement or someone we could definitely acquire

 

[The Bighouse]

Had a Swans supporter tell me he’s been saying Harry is awful all year and that we should trade him. Some people genuinely have no idea.

We seem to be the only club that opposition supporters think we should trade one of our two big forwards when we have seen plenty of evidence that clubs have won flags over the last 20 years with two big forwards. Nuts.

Trade him….to Sydney (?)

 

[RPCB]

Trade him….to Sydney (?)

“Swans are all in”: Sydney emerges as likely landing spot for Roos free agent McKay

“John Longmire is keen to use that salary cap space.”

www.sen.com.au

 

[Blue__Balls]

Hard no to trading Harry. Not dismissing the conversation entirely like some of the barflies here, it's a hypothetical discussion on a footy forum and has no bearing on the club's intentions at all.

H won the Coleman a couple years back, he's just entering his prime years (physically) and is clearly grappling with both internal and external pressure on his kicking technique. The "best" thing for him could well be to do what Joe Daniher did - move off-broadway, get a bit of a buffer from the external noise, hope that the monkey on his back pisses off as well and he could be a 65-goal-a-year forward for sure. That's exactly why we should only trade him as a last resort, you don't give a weapon like that to your competitors.

Now, I think that even if he does come good mentally with us (and he most likely will), he's forever going to be the kind of player who could fall in a heap in-game after one shanked kick. He could get the set shots down pat, have three or four good months, then one mis-kick could be the catalyst for the self-doubt to come roaring back.

What I'd like to see us do is invest a bit of time into improving his positional flexibility. Have him spend some time in the offseason training both with the backline and as a ruck. Get him away from goals for a bit, reinforce that the goal-kicking is one small component of what he can offer, and see if that helps relax him a bit when he does take his shots. Furthermore, if we can unlock a genuine second position for him, we can pull the trigger within games if he misses a couple of shots early and looks to lose confidence as a result. Against the Swans, had he not been injured, how valuable would it have been to be able to potentially swing him down back and move Gov up forward for the second half? How much better would we look (structurally) if we could get H to the point he could play second ruck?

Keep him unless he decides he wants out. Even then, do everything we can to keep him. But at the same time, get him to a point where his contribution isn't measured predominantly on goals kicked.

 

[bmaurizio]

Harry is a quality tall forward no doubt, but quality performances are inconsistent, footy IQ is questionable, and his durability a concern,
a 2 M+ gaint will be prone to injuries as his ages.
If there’s demand and trade is advantageous, I’d do it, sooner than later.
If we land another A grade youngish mid with speed, good accumulator & ball distribution, I’d di it.

 

[BlueJet]

He's gone from being one of the best at what he is as a lead up ff, to having to learn a new position where he probably isn't as well suited & essentially clearing out to create room for Charlie - am I remotely surprised that his confidence would be impacted, no.
Is it worth tinkering with our structures to put all of our players in the best place to succeed? Obviously.

 

[thylacine60]

He's gone from being one of the best at what he is as a lead up ff, to having to learn a new position where he probably isn't as well suited & essentially clearing out to create room for Charlie - am I remotely surprised that his confidence would be impacted, no.
Is it worth tinkering with our structures to put all of our players in the best place to succeed? Obviously.

quality post.......

 

[Monty1978]

Still need a KPF though, so if we were trading with Port, I would ask for Lord as part of the deal

One thing to contemplate a trade, even though I would never put up McKay unless we already had a viable replacement or someone we could definitely acquire

I’m not saying trade for butters or with port .. I think that’s the caliber of player I want for a kpf we already have .. I agree with what your saying though .. if it happened or mckay wanted out I would want players replacement but does that even happen anymore ?

 

[bigblueboy]

I’m not saying trade for butters or with port .. I think that’s the caliber of player I want for a kpf we already have .. I agree with what your saying though .. if it happened or mckay wanted out I would want players replacement but does that even happen anymore ?

Very rarely. Clubs generally trade for specific needs and the likelihood of that player being at the same club is low. Bringing in other clubs to make it 3-way or more tends to complicate the negotiations.

 

[JuddgementDay]

We are making too much out of Harry missed goals, it was just bad ball drops.

The main problem was that they were relatively easy shots for goal.

Talking about trading him is ridiculous.
If you watch the game again, he was very important to us.

He was involved in most of our scoring chains and had two direct goal assists.
We may have only scored one more goal after he went off - coincidence NOT!

Hoping for a quick recovery and back into our side for the Lions game

 

[Stamos]

Hoping for a quick recovery and back into our side for the Lions game

Hope we get an update soon that he's ok

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Trade Harry and get a 'midfielder' back - I don't get it.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I vote we keep Harry, bring in Liam Ryan

1

Liam Ryan

Age

28

Ht

181cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

2.7

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

1.3

5star

D

9.9

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.6

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

11.4

3star

K

9.0

4star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.6

5star

and some quality kids in the draft and win the next 12 flags.

Ryan Mckay Fogarty
Martin Curnow Owies

Motlop/Durdin