List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[thylacine60]

Oh ****. The hindsight drafting brigade at it again. There's a fruitful past-time.

 

[Stamos]

You're right, both were taken early teens.

Pickett looks a genuine star small forward...already a premiership winner and torched the Dogs tonight with 4 goals. That is a HUGE blunder by SOS and the team...imagine Pickett on our list instead of Philp and Kemp. He was there and they chose to trade down the order...this one hurts.

Our drafting under SOS is pretty terrible reading except for 2015. Our first 2 picks that haven't had much impact include Dow, SPS, Stocker, Philp and Kemp. LOB and Fish as well are on the fringe. After 2015 the only win is Walsh and he was an obvious guaranteed star.

The irony is, SOS picked brilliantly in 2015 when we didn't have a recruiting manager.
Not so well after Brodie came in at the start of 2017.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Reckon this team can win a Premiership?

B:	5 Brandon Ellis	18 Alex Rance	2 Dylan Grimes
HB:	14 Bachar Houli	12 David Astbury	1 Nick Vlastuin
C:	33 Kamdyn McIntosh	9 Trent Cotchin	21 Jacob Townsend
HF:	23 Kane Lambert	4 Dustin Martin	22 Josh Caddy
F:	40 Dan Butler	8 Jack Riewoldt	17 Daniel Rioli
Foll:	25 Toby Nankervis	3 Dion Prestia	6 Shaun Grigg
Int:	10 Shane Edwards	34 Jack Graham	35 Nathan Broad
	46 Jason Castagna

Completely irrelevant to the team I commented on.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Reckon this team can win a Premiership?

B:	5 Brandon Ellis	18 Alex Rance	2 Dylan Grimes
HB:	14 Bachar Houli	12 David Astbury	1 Nick Vlastuin
C:	33 Kamdyn McIntosh	9 Trent Cotchin	21 Jacob Townsend
HF:	23 Kane Lambert	4 Dustin Martin	22 Josh Caddy
F:	40 Dan Butler	8 Jack Riewoldt	17 Daniel Rioli
Foll:	25 Toby Nankervis	3 Dion Prestia	6 Shaun Grigg
Int:	10 Shane Edwards	34 Jack Graham	35 Nathan Broad
	46 Jason Castagna

One of the greatest coaching feats I've ever seen.

 

[Stamos]

Completely irrelevant to the team I commented on.

Not at all.
We have enough talent, that's not our issue.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Not at all.
We have enough talent, that's not our issue.

Talent yes, balance I'd argue no.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Manipulating arguments, deflecting again
You said we are 2 to 3 players short
Then you bat for the other side and say 15 changes.I don't care about changes, it is finding minimum 10 good players
You are more invested in fudging a stance to allow yourself the opportunity to move away from your original statement, to protect your ego, than having a firm constructive opinion.

I don't get it. You confidently predicted that Richmond would be top 4 this year a couple of weeks ago. You also stated that they would defeat us by 17 points because they had fixed their midfield.

So we should have beaten them and had two points snatched away from us so by your calculations based on a small sample size we are the equivalent of a top 4 team.

However we now need 10 players to win a premiership (interestingly five or 6 may already be on our list in Walsh, Durdin, Cottrell, Williams, Lemmy, Boyd and even O'Keeffe).

So if we say four of them are included we then need to trade or pick up 3 free agents and draft 3 players to be a premiership team. Seems a very arbitrary figure to me. Also one that wouldn't be too hard to achieve.

Do "top 4 bound" Richmond also require 10 new players to enable them to win a flag?

 

[F_therest]

Talent yes, balance I'd argue no.

Our new coaching and list management team have thankfully identified our weaknesses and gone to work...but it'll take a bit of time.

Drafted Durdin and Motlop for our small forward weaknesses.
Drafted kids who can run like Hollands...too many of our early midfield picks under SOS don't have the running power required (Dow, SPS, Stocker, Fish etc).
Brought in Acres for a wing position on a cheap contract.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Our new coaching and list management team have thankfully identified our weaknesses and gone to work...but it'll take a bit of time.

Drafted Durdin and Motlop for our small forward weaknesses.
Drafted kids who can run like Hollands...too many of our early midfield picks under SOS don't have the running power required (Dow, SPS, Stocker, Fish etc).
Brought in Acres for a wing position.

I have full faith in the list management team currently with us. I just enjoy speculating on who they may target. It's one of my favourite pastimes along with telling Bulldogs/Pies fans how insufferable they are.

Goes hand in hand with Supercoach, keeping up with what opposition players are doing brings me joy.

 

[branedotorg]

Oh *. The hindsight drafting brigade at it again. There's a fruitful past-time.

It's not crazy to point out that dow, SPS, stocker, kemp, philp, LOB, fisher, cuningham (for various reasons) all haven't progressed anywhere near expected from draft picks inside 30.

It's also not new and has been done to death

 

[Michael Jezz]

No, I only bat for one side Michael

Will break it down for you, shits and giggles

If we had Daniel Rioli, Charlie Cameron and Connor Rozee, 3 players, do you think we are 10 good players away from contending?

You are tricky bastard, changing the argument
You manipulated from "premiership" to "contending"
And yes those 3 are not enough. It is 10 players that have to be found (see my list and reasons) to get to a premiership 30 to cover injuries, form in all positons

 

[Michael Jezz]

I don't get it. You confidently predicted that Richmond would be top 4 this year a couple of weeks ago. You also stated that they would defeat us by 17 points because they had fixed their midfield.

So we should have beaten them and had two points snatched away from us so by your calculations based on a small sample size we are the equivalent of a top 4 team.

However we now need 10 players to win a premiership (interestingly five or 6 may already be on our list in Walsh, Durdin, Cottrell, Williams, Lemmy, Boyd and even O'Keeffe).

So if we say four of them are included we then need to trade or pick up 3 free agents and draft 3 players to be a premiership team. Seems a very arbitrary figure to me. Also one that wouldn't be too hard to achieve.

Do "top 4 bound" Richmond also require 10 new players to enable them to win a flag?

Read my list that we need to replace. IT is not arbitrary 10 players
You picked us to beat Richmond....it was a draw.
What has Richmond got to do with how many players Carlton are
short.
So tell us the year you predict, we will win a premiership because if it is not in the next 3 (2025) we will need to find 10 good players

 

[TENACIOUS]

With the talk here, of the 28+ aged players...

Personally don't think we have enough, enough of the right types (leaders)...

Dynasty teams Geelong, Hawthorn, Richmond & Sydney...
Always had steady heads, guys that have been there, done it all before, knew how to do the right thing at the right time, take the team with them, to get over the line...

Our over 28s, Cripps, McGovern, Docherty, Plowman, Martin, Newman & Curnow...
Might be good at certain parts on leadership...
However, they are still learning how to even win a game and how to make the 8...

 

[TENACIOUS]

If we had Daniel Rioli, Charlie Cameron and Connor Rozee, 3 players, do you think we are 10 good players away from contending?

No, now 13 players away

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Their cost is irrelevant.

So what would you prefer? Work through it with me

 

[Beyond Blue]

Both on bare minimum wage. It was and is worth the risk in 2023 to have them on the list this year. If their bodies fail, will be gone at the end of this year.

IMO their cost should not be measured by their wage but rather time, the list spot and lack of availability this year.

Not having them available for most of the season means another year of relying on Fisher and Martin to play half forward because Cunners isn’t an option to replace them if/when either have drops in form. It’s also another year of hoping that Gov doesn’t break down otherwise it’s back to Plowman we go for the third defender role. If we’d cut our losses with Cunners and Marchy at the end of last year and traded for direct replacements then right now we would have options to replace Fisher after his shocker on Thursday night. Instead we are essentially stuck with having to pick Fisher for good or bad pretty much for the rest of this year unless Cunners can get back or we try something risk like playing Honey or Dow in the role. Imagine if Gov breaks down and we have to go back to Plowman?!?

My fear is every year we delay the inevitable on these guys is a year we lose in our window for success.

 

[Stamos]

IMO their cost should not be measured by their wage but rather time, the list spot and lack of availability this year.

If we’d cut our losses with Cunners and Marchy at the end of last year and traded for direct replacements then right now we would have options to replace Fisher after his shocker on Thursday night.

If we cut them, what would we have traded for direct replacements?
We would have had a pick in the 60s and another in the 70s. Almost certainly we spend one of those on O'Keefe. So really just gives us an extra spot for an SSP replacement.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

IMO their cost should not be measured by their wage but rather time, the list spot and lack of availability this year.

Not having them available for most of the season means another year of relying on Fisher and Martin to play half forward because Cunners isn’t an option to replace them if/when either have drops in form. It’s also another year of hoping that Gov doesn’t break down otherwise it’s back to Plowman we go for the third defender role. If we’d cut our losses with Cunners and Marchy at the end of last year and traded for direct replacements then right now we would have options to replace Fisher after his shocker on Thursday night. Instead we are essentially stuck with having to pick Fisher for good or bad pretty much for the rest of this year unless Cunners can get back or we try something risk like playing Honey or Dow in the role. Imagine if Gov breaks down and we have to go back to Plowman?!?

My fear is every year we delay the inevitable on these guys is a year we lose in our window for success.

So... at the end of 2022, what is your alternative? People keep saying we can't keep injured players but give no real thought to the next step.

And trading for established replacements just wasn't an option.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Players Still OOC...

Cincotta, Kemp, Marchbank, Akuei, Curnow, O'Keeffe, Silvagni, Motlop, Honey, Fogarty,
Plowman, Pittonet, McGovern, Newman, Dow, Big Durdin, Philp & De Koning...

Priority
Motlop

Rest
Need to prove themselves this year

Trade Bait
De Koning, Silvagni, Kemp & McGovern

 

[Arr0w]

Their cost is irrelevant.

It should still be a balanced approach

While I would have preferred a strategy of a staggered replacement of injury prone players over 2-3 years, you don't cut all of them in one hit.

If you did, you would miss the benefit of someone like Kennedy getting his body right

Cuners and Marchbank have talent, both are on minimal salary and you would move on other injury prone guys like Fog and Philp to improve squad durability

Not really anyone on our list like Cuners, apart from Honey and say Martin

Marchbank has more competition, so whoever struggles to stay on the park out of he and Gov this year, should probably be moved on

So, replacing a minimum of 3-4 injury prone players end of this year, start with Fog, Philp, then 1 of Martin, Honey or Cuners, and or 1 of Gov or Marchbank

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Players Still OOC...

Cincotta, Kemp, Marchbank, Akuei, Curnow, O'Keeffe, Silvagni, Motlop, Honey, Fogarty,
Plowman, Pittonet, McGovern, Newman, Dow, Big Durdin, Philp & De Koning...

Priority
Motlop

Rest
Need to prove themselves this year

Trade Bait
De Koning, Silvagni, Kemp & McGovern

I still see big changes coming this year and I just don't see TDK as a ruck nor forward

 

[Arr0w]

Players Still OOC...

Cincotta, Kemp, Marchbank, Akuei, Curnow, O'Keeffe, Silvagni, Motlop, Honey, Fogarty,
Plowman, Pittonet, McGovern, Newman, Dow, Big Durdin, Philp & De Koning...

Priority
Motlop

Rest
Need to prove themselves this year

Trade Bait
De Koning, Silvagni, Kemp & McGovern

You wouldn't get much for Kemp or Gov

One yet to establish himself, but has upside. Other can't stay on the park and 29 next year.

I would play Gov forward if Kemp comes on or Marchbank stays on the park

 

[TENACIOUS]

If we cut them, what would we have traded for direct replacements?
We would have had a pick in the 60s and another in the 70s. Almost certainly we spend one of those on O'Keefe. So really just gives us an extra spot for an SSP replacement

A pick in the 60's or 70's or a fringe player trade, that are always available to play...
Would be much more beneficial to us, than talented players who are continually injured for years...

 

[TENACIOUS]

You wouldn't get much for Kemp or Gov

One yet to establish himself, but has upside. Other can't stay on the park and 29 next year.

I would play Gov forward if Kemp comes on or Marchbank stays on the park

True...

We have a lot of if/hope players on our list though... Some we paid big buck for...

 

[Stamos]

A pick in the 60's or 70's or a fringe player trade, that are always available to play...
Would be much more beneficial to us, than talented players who are continually injured for years...

"Always available to play"?
What guaranteed to never be injured? Wow.

The risk/reward equation at the end of last year strongly favours giving 1 year low money contracts to Cunners and Marchy, 2 highly talented then 25 year olds who play in positions of need.