List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Arr0w]

True...

We have a lot of if/hope players on our list though... Some we paid big buck for...

Fortunately, bang for buck improves dramatically end of year with guys like Gov, Dow, Fog, Philp, Kemp, Plow, either gone or heavily reduced salary

 

[HereComesJuddy]

A pick in the 60's or 70's or a fringe player trade, that are always available to play...
Would be much more beneficial to us, than talented players who are continually injured for years...

Maybe Carlton didn't see a benefit in offering 2 year contracts to 2 or more players drafted extremely late in the draft.

People can bang on about the injured players we have but offering a player deemed a very good player but unfortunately injured a 1 year contract with the hope they can have a clear bill of health over a very little chance to play late pick in a draft and giving them a 2 year contract, isn't the worst thing in the world.

And people mentioning we could have delisted injury players last year and traded for replacements might not be factoring in what it costs pick wise and cap wise to do this! If people were happy to not have Hollands and Cowan in our list and possibly trade out another best 22 player to free a little cap space to go and get 1 player than I think that's crazy list management based on us inking major large contracts over the past 2 years...

 

[Blue__Balls]

If we cut them, what would we have traded for direct replacements?
We would have had a pick in the 60s and another in the 70s. Almost certainly we spend one of those on O'Keefe. So really just gives us an extra spot for an SSP replacement.

There were cheap options around.

Aaron Francis (equivalent of an early third rounder), Sam Weideman (equivalent of a late second rounder), Josh Schache (2023 fourth rounder), Lachie Hunter (2023 third rounder) were all cheap gets in the last off-season.

Delisting Marchy and replacing him with one of Francis/Weideman/Schache would have been viable.

Delisting Cunners and replacing him with Hunter would have been viable.

Can guarantee there would be other fringe players who didn't move clubs, but could have if we'd made an attempt.

They're not necessarily players who move the needle as such, but if they're on the park it's more helpful than a nice bloke in the rehab group.

Feel like this year will be the cleanout of the perpetually injured. Only so many years that the coaching group will suffer through the nightmare of only having 32 blokes to select from.

 

[Beyond Blue]

If we cut them, what would we have traded for direct replacements?
We would have had a pick in the 60s and another in the 70s. Almost certainly we spend one of those on O'Keefe. So really just gives us an extra spot for an SSP replacement.

So... at the end of 2022, what is your alternative? People keep saying we can't keep injured players but give no real thought to the next step.

And trading for established replacements just wasn't an option.

Had we made calls on these guys last year during the year we could have targeted someone specific last year which includes players who were coming out of contact but resigned during the year or contracted players:
- get in the ear of Cam Zurhaar, Ben Ainsworth, Justin McInerney, Darcy Gardiner or Elijah Hollands before they resigned last year
- have a swing at Junior Rioli or Tanner Bruhn who both left their clubs during the trade period
- offer Ryan Lester, Harry Cunningham, Sam Wicks or Lewis Melican the opportunity of regular footy
- have a look at Ethan Phillips, Ned Cahill or Tyrece Lieu from the lower leagues

Right now I’d take a warm body over Cunner and Marchy. Instead we’re playing Ed Curnow as a defensive forward and have very little choice but to keep picking Fisher and Martin regardless of how they play. Not to mention the only thing between Plowman and a spot in the back 6 is Gov’s hamstrings.

It was risky enough carrying injury prone contracted blokes like Martin, Gov, Philp, Pitto, Williams and Boyd. To choose to resign the 2 most injury prone blokes who were out of contract is a luxury we just don’t have IMO.

 

[Stamos]

There were cheap options around.

Aaron Francis (equivalent of an early third rounder), Sam Weideman (equivalent of a late second rounder), Josh Schache (2023 fourth rounder), Lachie Hunter (2023 third rounder) were all cheap gets in the last off-season.

Delisting Marchy and replacing him with one of Francis/Weideman/Schache would have been viable.

Delisting Cunners and replacing him with Hunter would have been viable.

Can guarantee there would be other fringe players who didn't move clubs, but could have if we'd made an attempt.

They're not necessarily players who move the needle as such, but if they're on the park it's more helpful than a nice bloke in the rehab group.

Feel like this year will be the cleanout of the perpetually injured. Only so many years that the coaching group will suffer through the nightmare of only having 32 blokes to select from.

Delisting March or Cunners doesn't get us any of those players. Trading the pick we used to get Lemmy might.
Also, none of those players provide something we need compared to the role and talent that Cunners and Marchy have.

 

[TENACIOUS]

"Always available to play"?
What guaranteed to never be injured? Wow.

The risk/reward equation at the end of last year strongly favours giving 1 year low money contracts to Cunners and Marchy, 2 highly talented then 25 year olds who play in positions of need.

Yep money well spent, where are they?

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Had we made calls on these guys last year during the year we could have targeted someone specific last year which includes players who were coming out of contact but resigned during the year or contracted players:
- get in the ear of Cam Zurhaar, Ben Ainsworth, Justin McInerney, Darcy Gardiner or Elijah Hollands before they resigned last year
- have a swing at Junior Rioli or Tanner Bruhn who both left their clubs during the trade period
- offer Ryan Lester, Harry Cunningham, Sam Wicks or Lewis Melican the opportunity of regular footy
- have a look at Ethan Phillips, Ned Cahill or Tyrece Lieu from the lower leagues

Right now I’d take a warm body over Cunner and Marchy. Instead we’re playing Ed Curnow as a defensive forward and have very little choice but to keep picking Fisher and Martin regardless of how they play. Not to mention the only thing between Plowman and a spot in the back 6 is Gov’s hamstrings.

It was risky enough carrying injury prone contracted blokes like Martin, Gov, Philp, Pitto, Williams and Boyd. To choose to resign the 2 most injury prone blokes who were out of contract is a luxury we just don’t have IMO.

OMG!

How much cap and picks do you think this club has? And not every player wants to get to Carlton.

You list of players would have required a hefty amount of coin and very high picks.

We had just drafted only a handful of picks over the past few off seasons and just signed players such as: Cripps, Charlie, Harry and Weitering plus others to decent contracts. We don't just have endless money.

Ok, so we delist Cuningham and Marchbank. You've mentioned we could have traded for Zuuhar and Ainsworth. Right... so how do we get one of these let alone 2. As each one would cost more than the combined pay I would suggest Cunners and Marchbank are on. And picks wise, how? How do you suppose we do this? And if you do come up with a way, are you ok with not having quality youth on our list in Hollands and Cowan? To every action there is a reaction.

Imo we needed to conserve our money and hit the draft. Are we a perfect team currently, no. But we have time on our side with the age profile of our club.

 

[HaydossJ]

Could have taken Pickett or Weightman with that pick 9 too if im not mistaken.

Yep - and it's an even bigger blunder when you consider we were rolling with Gibbons and Murphy as our small forwards..

Best wishes to the Saints is all I'll say.

 

[Beyond Blue]

OMG!

How much cap and picks do you think this club has? And not every player wants to get to Carlton.

You list of players would have required a hefty amount of coin and very high picks.

We had just drafted only a handful of picks over the past few off seasons and just signed players such as: Cripps, Charlie, Harry and Weitering plus others to decent contracts. We don't just have endless money.

Ok, so we delist Cuningham and Marchbank. You've mentioned we could have traded for Zuuhar and Ainsworth. Right... so how do we get one of these let alone 2. As each one would cost more than the combined pay I would suggest Cunners and Marchbank are on. And picks wise, how? How do you suppose we do this? And if you do come up with a way, are you ok with not having quality youth on our list in Hollands and Cowan? To every action there is a reaction.

Imo we needed to conserve our money and hit the draft. Are we a perfect team currently, no. But we have time on our side with the age profile of our club.

I’ve given you a range of options cheap and expensive - even if we say Zurhaar, Ainsworth, Bruhn, Gardiner and Rioli are out of a reach due to the cap - the rest of the names mentioned wouldn’t have cost an arm and a leg.

IMO any combination of one of Lester/Melican/Phillips/Lieu and one of Harry Cuningham/McInerney/Cahill/Wicks would be better than what we have now which to be clear is nothing!

Also we could have managed the cap - IMO we made the right call moving Setters who wanted more money - we should have done the same with Dow which would have cleared more money.

 

[4flagsin5yrs]

There were cheap options around.

Aaron Francis (equivalent of an early third rounder), Sam Weideman (equivalent of a late second rounder), Josh Schache (2023 fourth rounder), Lachie Hunter (2023 third rounder) were all cheap gets in the last off-season.

Delisting Marchy and replacing him with one of Francis/Weideman/Schache would have been viable.

Delisting Cunners and replacing him with Hunter would have been viable.

Can guarantee there would be other fringe players who didn't move clubs, but could have if we'd made an attempt.

They're not necessarily players who move the needle as such, but if they're on the park it's more helpful than a nice bloke in the rehab group.

Feel like this year will be the cleanout of the perpetually injured. Only so many years that the coaching group will suffer through the nightmare of only having 32 blokes to select from.

That's naive frankly.

Francis - a 3rd or 4th tall (defender) has played 54 games in 7 seasons - on a par with Marchy!

Weideman is a KPF, maybe just, nothing but. Hard pass.

Schache is Schache....is any comment really needed?

And Hunter <<< Acres imo.

Brackets was always going to be rusty, but he went ok (sure, few blunders but wasn't alone there!) and we know he'll sharpen up - that kick on the death to Mots should have snared us the win in a slightly better world.

Martin too will improve with games under his belt.

Reality is all the players seemed very nervy on Thursday night, abnormally so (Tiges too for that matter). And flat.

Expect a blinder from Acres, Guv, Mots and Martin.

Noting if Mots and Martin kick three each, suddenly we do have competent small forwards!

(ps I'm baffled by what must me a coaching instruction to Owies and Mots to roam upfield....they should be with 20m of Charlie and Harry at all times when the ball is in our possession....)

 

[Beyond Blue]

Oh *. The hindsight drafting brigade at it again. There's a fruitful past-time.

I agree there is some hindsight drafting calls like Dow and Samo who every club would have picked had they had the chance but the following is not hindsight:
- splitting pick 9 and drafting Philp who nobody was considering to go that early in the draft and wasn’t even invited to draft night
- drafting Kemp who everyone knew would be out for his first year of seniors hence him sliding so far down
- overlooking Pickett and Weightman who represented needs at the time and still haven’t been fully addressed
- trading picks to get Stocker who was overlooked by every club with a first round pick but who our drafting team rated the 6th best player in draft that included a consensus top 7 Walsh, Lukosius, Rankine, M & B King, Rozee, Bailey Smith and NGA/FS locks Taryn Thomas, Nick Blakey and Quaynor.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

people wanting to use TDK as trade bait… why?

Who else do we have?

 

[Revenant1965]

Is it Round 23 yet...?

 

[Red Bull]

Is it Round 23 yet...?

No.
But this is the list management thread and list management discussion is 24/7 these days …

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Also we could have managed the cap - IMO we made the right call moving Setters who wanted more money - we should have done the same with Dow which would have cleared more momoney.

I can categorically tell you we did hope to move Dow on. There were zero takers. So no, we couldn't move Dow on.

 

[macky99]

I don't get it. You confidently predicted that Richmond would be top 4 this year a couple of weeks ago. You also stated that they would defeat us by 17 points because they had fixed their midfield.

So we should have beaten them and had two points snatched away from us so by your calculations based on a small sample size we are the equivalent of a top 4 team.

However we now need 10 players to win a premiership (interestingly five or 6 may already be on our list in Walsh, Durdin, Cottrell, Williams, Lemmy, Boyd and even O'Keeffe).

So if we say four of them are included we then need to trade or pick up 3 free agents and draft 3 players to be a premiership team. Seems a very arbitrary figure to me. Also one that wouldn't be too hard to achieve.

Do "top 4 bound" Richmond also require 10 new players to enable them to win a flag?

Never going to win the argument with Michael Jezz, clearly has a agenda and will push it hard after every loss, seems to think we can just just pluck 10 players out of thin air, forgetting the fact there are 18 clubs in a highly competitive market.
The list overall is in good shape, no doubt has some have said we could have made the call to delist some of the injured players, but only so many you can have each year, we went to the draft which was positive, no doubt if some of the players Marchbank & Cunningham do not get on the park this year, they will be gone, but only if it was so simple as some on here believe to be case.

 

[TENACIOUS]

people wanting to use TDK as trade bait… why?

Who else do we have?

Don’t want to trade him…
I’d rather him to commit to us…

Put him in there, if the rumours are true to what he’s being offered then he’d be silly not to take them…

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

There's a couple of teams in Qld this sad clown would be better off following.

Did someone say Crusty Burger?
I don’t care i love it..

people wanting to use TDK as trade bait… why?

Who else do we have?

Absolute craziness…

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Could have taken Pickett or Weightman with that pick 9 too if im not mistaken.

Think people forget how good Kempy was before his ACL, and how pleased we were with the deals done on draft night. He was an elite prospect and perhaps still may be.

Philp was the strange one. He unfortunately will never get the chance to show what he's got.

 

[Jeremias]

I agree there is some hindsight drafting calls like Dow and Samo who every club would have picked had they had the chance but the following is not hindsight:

Yes it is.

- splitting pick 9 and drafting Philp who nobody was considering to go that early in the draft and wasn’t even invited to draft night

How do you know where other clubs rated him?

Not only is this hindsight, it’s a complete guess with no evidence to support it.

- drafting Kemp who everyone knew would be out for his first year of seniors hence him sliding so far down

What’s the issue here?

- overlooking Pickett and Weightman who represented needs at the time and still haven’t been fully addressed

You telling me you’d want us to take a player who has missed significant time in his 3 years of footy via injury - and is currently out injured - and you wouldn’t be sitting here complaining about it?

Ok then.

- trading picks to get Stocker who was overlooked by every club with a first round pick but who our drafting team rated the 6th best player in draft that included a consensus top 7 Walsh, Lukosius, Rankine, M & B King, Rozee, Bailey Smith and NGA/FS locks Taryn Thomas, Nick Blakey and Quaynor.

This has never been confirmed in terms of what it means exactly, and as above, you just have no idea where other clubs rated him.

 

[Blue__Balls]

That's naive frankly.

Francis - a 3rd or 4th tall (defender) has played 54 games in 7 seasons - on a par with Marchy!

Weideman is a KPF, maybe just, nothing but. Hard pass.

Schache is Schache....is any comment really needed?

And Hunter <<< Acres imo.

Brackets was always going to be rusty, but he went ok (sure, few blunders but wasn't alone there!) and we know he'll sharpen up - that kick on the death to Mots should have snared us the win in a slightly better world.

Martin too will improve with games under his belt.

Reality is all the players seemed very nervy on Thursday night, abnormally so (Tiges too for that matter). And flat.

Expect a blinder from Acres, Guv, Mots and Martin.

Noting if Mots and Martin kick three each, suddenly we do have competent small forwards!

(ps I'm baffled by what must me a coaching instruction to Owies and Mots to roam upfield....they should be with 20m of Charlie and Harry at all times when the ball is in our possession....)

It's not naivety at all. Simply a response to the question of how we could have filled the list spots should we have cut a few injured blokes. You may not love the players, that's fine, I'm not arguing for them to become best 22 staples - simply showing that it wouldn't have cost much to bring in some passable mature depth.

That's the discussion, as I see it, and it will happen again at year's end - there must come a time when the permanent members of the rehab group are moved on for the sake of maintaining a list of 36-38 fit players for the majority of the season. They don't have to be 36-38 guys competing for a starting spot, but we need to have a predominantly healthy squad for the sake of senior performance and reserves development.

 

[Beyond Blue]

Yes it is.


How do you know where other clubs rated him?

Not only is this hindsight, it’s a complete guess with no evidence to support it.

What’s the issue here?

You telling me you’d want us to take a player who has missed significant time in his 3 years of footy via injury - and is currently out injured - and you wouldn’t be sitting here complaining about it?

Ok then.



This has never been confirmed in terms of what it means exactly, and as above, you just have no idea where other clubs rated him.

Philp wasn’t in a lot of phantom draft top 30’s and didn’t get invited by the telecasters to be in the audience. It’s not a perfect guide but a lot of these are based on inside info media people have got from the clubs - Twoomey has successfully selected the top 15 in the last 2 drafts - so it’s not a complete guess.

Notwithstanding the fact I’m not sure what position the club was trying to address when taking him, Kemp has played 6 games in 3 years. With 38 games played over the same period Weightman in comparison looks like Michael Tuck.

I think it’s fair to say we didn’t know what our drafting guys were thinking when they said they rated him top 6. I do know that Port and Gold Coast overlooked him 3 times, Adelaide overlooked him Fremantle twice as well as Geelong, St Kilda, Sydney, North and Collingwood. Richmond were known to have concerns over his stamina. It was a speculative selection at best.

You are right however Jeremias I do not know precisely what clubs were thinking just like you don’t know what Stephen and Ben Silvagni were thinking the other night.

 

[Monty1978]

Not sure how silvagni would have known Philp would be this injured , just unlucky for the young lad.
I also have no problem with our
List. I think we have a list that can contend with a bit of luck and luck I mean less injuries.
From an outside view I felt the club thought we were close so role the dice on the injured players… it hasn’t worked so far so I expect us to go the other way th is year.
Only issue I have is the contracts last year we gave out .. owies , cottrell and boyd got 2 years if I remember correctly why !!!

 

[HereComesJuddy]

Only issue I have is the contracts last year we gave out .. owies , cottrell and boyd got 2 years if I remember correctly why !!!

Boyd is a no brainer for a 2 year contract. 2nd year in the AFL system and when called upon, looked confident, has speed, good decision maker and a very handy backman. If not injured would easily be in the best 22 imo and also in many others.

Being short on wing options, I would think it's a decision fraught with danger to either delist Cottrell or offer him a 1 year contract. He has amazing pace and can go forward to cause opposition defenders a hard match up. I think 2 years was the right call and at worst is quality depth.

Owies, yep I agree. I've never seen anything more than a very good 2nds player. Sure he has had his moments but 1 year or delist would have been my suggestion but clearly the club see him as a good player and handy depth.

Sometimes a club just needs to do these types of contracts. We missed the finals by % and we are only 1 game into the season and haven't lost a game. I'm just confused people are so concerned. Of course we could go badly but we also could have a great year. Yep sure, we could have a few more quality role players on our list but we needed to keep our solid group together as best ad we could and go to the draft. And from the picks we took at the draft, I'm beyond happy.

 

[Jeremias]

Philp wasn’t in a lot of phantom draft top 30’s and didn’t get invited by the telecasters to be in the audience. It’s not a perfect guide but a lot of these are based on inside info media people have got from the clubs - Twoomey has successfully selected the top 15 in the last 2 drafts - so it’s not a complete guess.

Let’s not pretend the phantom drafts are anything more than what they are.

Most people doing phantom drafts have access to maybe 5% of information available to clubs.

From memory, Kevin Sheehan had him in his top 30.

Notwithstanding the fact I’m not sure what position the club was trying to address when taking him, Kemp has played 6 games in 3 years. With 38 games played over the same period Weightman in comparison looks like Michael Tuck.

We lack pace in midfield and across half forward. That’s fairly obvious I reckon.

Weightman has played more but has also missed time through injury. Again, let’s not pretend there wouldn’t be people complaining about his lack of availability. Of course there would be.

I think it’s fair to say we didn’t know what our drafting guys were thinking when they said they rated him top 6. I do know that Port and Gold Coast overlooked him 3 times, Adelaide overlooked him Fremantle twice as well as Geelong, St Kilda, Sydney, North and Collingwood. Richmond were known to have concerns over his stamina. It was a speculative selection at best.

Overlooked yes. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t rated.

For all we know he may have been rated top 5 by all those clubs.

You are right however Jeremias I do not know precisely what clubs were thinking just like you don’t know what Stephen and Ben Silvagni were thinking the other night.

Eh?