List Mgmt. 2023 List Management

[Magical_EddieBetts]

Where is this?

Sunday footy show

 

[AndyLucimitis]

I’ll just leave this here.

LDU is touted as one of the best clearance players in the AFL.

2017 draft pick 3

Paddy Dow.

Pick 4……..Yep.


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Yep - always thought LDU was the big miss.

 

[Jatz]

yep. not good.
That said, have we developed Paddy as good as we could have?

You win some, lose some when it comes to the draft.
Remember, our 2015 draft we got Harry & Charlie for picks 10 & 12 when other clubs drafted the likes of Key position players Sam Weideman, Josh Schache & Aaron Francis ahead of those boys.

Carlton's National Draft haul (the last 10 years):
2012: Troy Menzel (11), Tom Temay (35), Nick Graham (54)
2013: Patrick Cripps (13), Cameron Giles (39), Nick Holman (51)
2014: Blaine Boekhorst (19), Dillion Viojo-Rainbow (28), Clem Smith (60)
2015: Jacob Weitering (1), Harry McKay (10), Charlie Curnow (12), David Cuningham (23), Jack Silvagni (53)
2016: Sam Petrevski-Seton (6), Zac Fisher (27), Harrison Macreadie (47), Cameron Polson (59), Tom Williamson (61)
2017: Paddy Dow (3), Lochie O'Brien (10), Tom DeKoning (30), Angus Schumacher (70)
2018: Sam Walsh (1), Liam Stocker (19), Ben Silvagni (70)
2019: Brodie Kemp (17), Sam Philp (20), Sam Ramsay (47)
2020: Corey Durdin (37), Jack Carrol (41) - Both TBD
2021: Jesse Motlop (27)

Happy to put Motlop in green - I think we've seen enough from a 2nd year player to suggest he has 100+ games in him. Durdin & O'Brien close to being green but need to see a big year from both.

Thank god for 2015!

Man it's depressing seeing it listed out like that.

2012 and 2014 were absolutely diabolical.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

It's not easy being green, at least not for Carlton draftees.

 

[Faz 2000]

Man it's depressing seeing it listed out like that.

2012 and 2014 were absolutely diabolical.

It's one of those things that I think is best not to look at too hard. That way leads to madness and depression.

We can only hope more recent decisions and development have addressed the shortcomings of the past. Certainly there are good wins highlighted in the above, amidst some huge whiffs.

Nobody gets it right all the time, but nobody has got it as wrong as often as CFC in the last 15 years.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Why is David Cunningham green, though? There's no evidence one way or another.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Okay, so you haven't been able to drill down and lock in his direct opponent who dominated a game while playing on Fisher, yet offered up 2 players in the Tigers game that played well.

So who was the other forward, as both Vlastuin and Broad would have an opponent each

Perhaps Rioli, who was the most dominant HB, should have been marked a little closer by Owies?

Mots could play that role, but he is already in the side as, a forward

Question still remains, who replaces Fisher in the side, without negatively impacting another area

Easy call for mine - Hollands to the Fisher role, LOB and Acres starting on the wings. Fisher to the ressies, or even the sub vest, for a block of 3-4 games. Doesn't need to be a permanent axing, just remind him of his mortality (from a selection standpoint) and see how he responds.

There are other options too. In the short term:

- Give Carroll or Kemp a run of senior games as a high forward pushing into the middle.
- Send Kennedy forward and give Dow an opportunity as a pure midfielder.
- Send Kennedy forward and give Fisher himself an opportunity as a pure midfielder.
- Can try Honey again, though I think despite his poor showing last week that Fisher is still a notable step up from Josh.

In the near future we also have Durdin and Walsh expected back who could directly replace Fisher in the 22.

Longer term I'd be more than happy to see Cottrell in that spot, or the mythical Cuningham if the shoulder comes good.

Getting a bit more creative, I wonder if Cincotta would work as a defensive small/medium forward in the Beau McCreery mold. Has pace, has a bit of size, tackles well, can roost the ball. As a defender he's seemed a reasonable read of the play, which might translate. Appears to be behind Cowan at this point, so he's got a battle on his hands for a backline gig (Saad, Doc, Newman, Boyd, Williams, Cowan...not sure about Plowman...a fair way back in that pecking order).

Could also try Binns, though if we go that route I think it needs to be with one of Hollands or Cowan coming out as well so we're not overstocked for 18yos.

 

[Crippa#9]

Why is David Cunningham green, though? There's no evidence one way or another.

Fair question. Probably going on bonafide Best 22 player when at their best.
Persoanlly, I think Cuningham is easily best 22 when fit and in form.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

Okay, so you haven't been able to drill down and lock in his direct opponent who dominated a game while playing on Fisher, yet offered up 2 players in the Tigers game that played well.

So who was the other forward, as both Vlastuin and Broad would have an opponent each

Perhaps Rioli, who was the most dominant HB, should have been marked a little closer by Owies?

Mots could play that role, but he is already in the side as, a forward

Question still remains, who replaces Fisher in the side, without negatively impacting another area

Fisher was matched up by both vlaustin and broad during the game depending on who was coming on and off the interchange at certain times neither paid any close attention to him and were a lot more concerned about supporting grimes and balta, the other player that broad and vlaustin matched up on was mostly Silvagni when not in the ruck and a little bit of Martin.

With Silvagni he tried to drag them out of the play but I think Jack is being asked to do to much at the moment imagine going up against a brutal physical ruckman like nankervis then instead of resting deep forward he is being asked to clock up the kilometres being a link player between defence and the forwards.

Rioli had the Owies matchup and the less said about Owies game the better, Motlop doesn’t play as high up the ground as fisher has been but I would like to see him there more as he builds his fitness levels.

For mine fisher is not capable enough to play half forward he is and always has been a midfielder only the problem for him is we have 10-12 players on our list who are better midfielders than him so just like Dow I wouldn’t have him in our side.

I also gave you 3 examples from last season of fishers opponents who dominated a game.

As for who replaces him in the side with Durdin, Cottrell and Cuningham out at the moment I would go with honey and his extra speed and genuine pressure rather than the extra possessions fisher gets up the ground. It can’t happen but as a cheap option I would have liked us to give Cahill a chance this year I know it’s been at a lower level but I’ve been impressed with his smarts, pressure and the fact he is duel sided he definitely has Owies well and truly covered.

 

[Arr0w]

Well detailed BB

Easy call for mine - Hollands to the Fisher role, LOB and Acres starting on the wings. Fisher to the ressies, or even the sub vest, for a block of 3-4 games. Doesn't need to be a permanent axing, just remind him of his mortality (from a selection standpoint) and see how he responds.

Hollands "might" be able to play that role right now, and LOB (another whipping boy) back to a wing, but we would need to find another rotation on the wing. I prefer 3 endurance beast for the wings, Cotts and Walsh returning will be interesting on selection

There are other options too. In the short term:

- Give Carroll or Kemp a run of senior games as a high forward pushing into the middle.

Carroll probably the best option, but we lose some nip and agility in an already slower area/team

- Send Kennedy forward and give Dow an opportunity as a pure midfielder.

Kennedy a great option forward, but more a Jsos or Martin replacement. Dow has never averaged more than 15 touches a game over any season, as a midfielder, Fisher playing a dual role has averaged more than 15 touches in 4 seasons

- Send Kennedy forward and give Fisher himself an opportunity as a pure midfielder.

Better mix, but prefer they are rotating in both areas

- Can try Honey again, though I think despite his poor showing last week that Fisher is still a notable step up from Josh.

Honey might be a better replacement for Owies, being slightly more versatile

In the near future we also have Durdin and Walsh expected back who could directly replace Fisher in the 22.

Especially when Walsh returns, selection in a number spots will be interesting. I would rotate Hollands, Acres, Walsh on the wings

Longer term I'd be more than happy to see Cottrell in that spot, or the mythical Cuningham if the shoulder comes good.

Cuners for impact, Cotts for consistency

Getting a bit more creative, I wonder if Cincotta would work as a defensive small/medium forward in the Beau McCreery mold. Has pace, has a bit of size, tackles well, can roost the ball. As a defender he's seemed a reasonable read of the play, which might translate.

Nice left of centre option, still believe Boyd could be our best small forward

Appears to be behind Cowan at this point, so he's got a battle on his hands for a backline gig (Saad, Doc, Newman, Boyd, Williams, Cowan...not sure about Plowman...a fair way back in that pecking order).

Cowan could play that role in time, but maybe as a Martin replacement

 

[skadoosh]

What was Fisher doing if Vlastuin and Grimes essentially left on his own?

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Fair question. Probably going on bonafide Best 22 player when at their best.
Persoanlly, I think Cuningham is easily best 22 when fit and in form.

I honestly can't tell because he hasn't played enough games to get past the 'development' stage. Plenty of players have looked decent only to fade out when their weaknesses have been exposed or when they fall out of favour for other players. Conversely, he might have turned out better than expected. Putting draftees into just two categories ignores the vagaries of the draft system. Players can fall short when most of the evidence suggests you have taken the right player (i.e Gibbs); on the other hand, you can draft someone who gets games despite the fact that you probably should have drafted the other guy who plays even better footy for another club. I'm more interested in looking at our tactics and what types of players we have tended to favour and at which point in the draft, rather than simply putting the players into 'pass' and 'fail' catergories.

 

[Arr0w]

Fisher was matched up by both vlaustin and broad during the game depending on who was coming on and off the interchange at certain times neither paid any close attention to him and were a lot more concerned about supporting grimes and balta, the other player that broad and vlaustin matched up on was mostly Silvagni when not in the ruck and a little bit of Martin.

Can't cop that Broad and Vlastuin weren't on the ground at the same, they both had a TOG of 90% +

Martin and Jsos had less touches than Fisher, yet you are trying to tell me he didn't have an opponent? Does that mean all of Fisher's teammates lacked vision to hit up a man completely in the clear?

With Silvagni he tried to drag them out of the play but I think Jack is being asked to do to much at the moment imagine going up against a brutal physical ruckman like nankervis then instead of resting deep forward he is being asked to clock up the kilometres being a link player between defence and the forwards.

So you think Jsos was asked to drag his defender out of play, but no other forward was asked to do the same

Rioli had the Owies matchup and the less said about Owies game the better, Motlop doesn’t play as high up the ground as fisher has been but I would like to see him there more as he builds his fitness levels.

Owies stays in the side and Fisher goes out?

For mine fisher is not capable enough to play half forward he is and always has been a midfielder

You still haven't given me one name that comes into the side to play Fisher role

As for who replaces him in the side with Durdin, Cottrell and Cuningham out at the moment I would go with honey and his extra speed and genuine pressure rather than the extra possessions fisher gets up the ground.

Extra speed yes, more pressure and goals, no. So the output actually decreases

It can’t happen but as a cheap option I would have liked us to give Cahill a chance this year I know it’s been at a lower level but I’ve been impressed with his smarts, pressure and the fact he is duel sided he definitely has Owies well and truly covered.

Not on the list and clearly nothing to do with Fisher

 

[Arr0w]

What was Fisher doing if Vlastuin and Grimes essentially left on his own?

What were his teammates doing not hitting up a completely free teammate?

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

What was Fisher doing if Vlastuin and Grimes essentially left on his own?

Now that’s a good question, he was getting sucked up into the contest but had little to no influence when he was there.

 

[Benaly28]

yep. not good.
That said, have we developed Paddy as good as we could have?

You win some, lose some when it comes to the draft.
Remember, our 2015 draft we got Harry & Charlie for picks 10 & 12 when other clubs drafted the likes of Key position players Sam Weideman, Josh Schache & Aaron Francis ahead of those boys.

Carlton's National Draft haul (the last 10 years):
2012: Troy Menzel (11), Tom Temay (35), Nick Graham (54)
2013: Patrick Cripps (13), Cameron Giles (39), Nick Holman (51)
2014: Blaine Boekhorst (19), Dillion Viojo-Rainbow (28), Clem Smith (60)
2015: Jacob Weitering (1), Harry McKay (10), Charlie Curnow (12), David Cuningham (23), Jack Silvagni (53)
2016: Sam Petrevski-Seton (6), Zac Fisher (27), Harrison Macreadie (47), Cameron Polson (59), Tom Williamson (61)
2017: Paddy Dow (3), Lochie O'Brien (10), Tom DeKoning (30), Angus Schumacher (70)
2018: Sam Walsh (1), Liam Stocker (19), Ben Silvagni (70)
2019: Brodie Kemp (17), Sam Philp (20), Sam Ramsay (47)
2020: Corey Durdin (37), Jack Carrol (41) - Both TBD
2021: Jesse Motlop (27)

Happy to put Motlop in green - I think we've seen enough from a 2nd year player to suggest he has 100+ games in him. Durdin & O'Brien close to being green but need to see a big year from both.

Thank god for 2015!

Has North developed LDU better or has he just come of age.


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[Bamboo Harvester]

yep. not good.
That said, have we developed Paddy as good as we could have?

You win some, lose some when it comes to the draft.
Remember, our 2015 draft we got Harry & Charlie for picks 10 & 12 when other clubs drafted the likes of Key position players Sam Weideman, Josh Schache & Aaron Francis ahead of those boys.

Carlton's National Draft haul (the last 10 years):
2012: Troy Menzel (11), Tom Temay (35), Nick Graham (54)
2013: Patrick Cripps (13), Cameron Giles (39), Nick Holman (51)
2014: Blaine Boekhorst (19), Dillion Viojo-Rainbow (28), Clem Smith (60)
2015: Jacob Weitering (1), Harry McKay (10), Charlie Curnow (12), David Cuningham (23), Jack Silvagni (53)
2016: Sam Petrevski-Seton (6), Zac Fisher (27), Harrison Macreadie (47), Cameron Polson (59), Tom Williamson (61)
2017: Paddy Dow (3), Lochie O'Brien (10), Tom DeKoning (30), Angus Schumacher (70)
2018: Sam Walsh (1), Liam Stocker (19), Ben Silvagni (70)
2019: Brodie Kemp (17), Sam Philp (20), Sam Ramsay (47)
2020: Corey Durdin (37), Jack Carrol (41) - Both TBD
2021: Jesse Motlop (27)

Happy to put Motlop in green - I think we've seen enough from a 2nd year player to suggest he has 100+ games in him. Durdin & O'Brien close to being green but need to see a big year from both.

Thank god for 2015!

You left out the Fantastic Flying Ferocious Finbar!!!!

 

[Crippa#9]

I honestly can't tell because he hasn't played enough games to get past the 'development' stage. Plenty of players have looked decent only to fade out when their weaknesses have been exposed or when they fall out of favour for other players. Conversely, he might have turned out better than expected. Putting draftees into just two categories ignores the vagaries of the draft system. Players can fall short when most of the evidence suggests you have taken the right player (i.e Gibbs); on the other hand, you can draft someone who gets games despite the fact that you probably should have drafted the other guy who plays even better footy for another club. I'm more interested in looking at our tactics and what types of players we have tended to favour and at which point in the draft, rather than simply putting the players into 'pass' and 'fail' catergories.

Be that as it may, a player drafted is either a pass or a fail. They either cut it or don't.
Sadly, we've had too many fails over the last decade.

Dow, SPS...even Stocker you can't afford to 'miss the target' with a first round pick. It sets the club back way too far. That, in addition to the majority of our 2nd & 3rd round picks being delisted so early in their careers is crippling to wanting to have sustained success.

Pre draft, did we put enough work into Menzel and his low work ethic? Did we scout SPS's defensive work as hard as we should have? Dow's also?

No doubt development has been an issue at Carlton for new draftees but feels like we've made the mistake far too often of simply drafting 'project' players.

 

[F_therest]

Has North developed LDU better or has he just come of age.


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North have been a rabble ever since LDU was drafted with Rhyce Shaw and Noble.

Definitely not anything to do with their development team over ours, IMO it's all LDU coming of age.

Like Dow he also looks good bursting out of stoppages...actually a similar type of player but seems to have better running power and is currently a top AFL player.

Unfortunate to think we could have picked him over Dow and we could have Kozzie Pickett on our list.

 

[F_therest]

After watching every VFL game for the past 2 seasons(on the telly), Carroll looked great early 2021, but he has lost consistency and intensity.
He reminds me of Setters, not dreadful, but just cruises along most games.(his kicking is poor)

Sad to hear, we don't really have any reliable midfield depth.

Dow could surprise but so far he hasn't had much impact at AFL level. Setters is gone. Carroll seems to have gone backwards. Cunners always injured.

Who else do we have to bring in if we copped another injury to a mid?

 

[JustaBattler]

Sad to hear, we don't really have any reliable midfield depth.

Dow could surprise but so far he hasn't had much impact at AFL level. Setters is gone. Carroll seems to have gone backwards. Cunners always injured.

Who else do we have to bring in if we copped another injury to a mid?

Honey/Martin/Docherty all capable of rotating through the midfield. We need to add new faces throughout a game.

 

[Jatz]

Honey/Martin/Docherty all capable of rotating through the midfield. We need to add new faces throughout a game.

If we're relying on Martin rotating through the middle we're in trouble.

Honey might be able to do it but I haven't seen it yet.

Doc would certainly help.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

Can't cop that Broad and Vlastuin weren't on the ground at the same, they both had a TOG of 90% +

Martin and Jsos had less touches than Fisher, yet you are trying to tell me he didn't have an opponent? Does that mean all of Fisher's teammates lacked vision to hit up a man completely in the clear?


So you think Jsos was asked to drag his defender out of play, but no other forward was asked to do the same


Owies stays in the side and Fisher goes out?


You still haven't given me one name that comes into the side to play Fisher role

Extra speed yes, more pressure and goals, no. So the output actually decreases



Not on the list and clearly nothing to do with Fisher

Broad and vlaustin were on the ground at the same time and shared the fisher matchup surely you can understand in modern football matchups don’t stay the same for the entire game.

Fisher should be getting more possessions than Martin and silvagni he plays higher up the ground and is in the play a lot more, Fisher kept getting sucked into the contest which is fine if he has an influence when he’s there but he did not.

Silvagni is being asked to do to much as an undersized ruckman then be a link up player to connect the forwards to the backs, pittonett should be in the side but I’m guessing the match committee thought he wasn’t ready yet, watch the minute leading up to the lynch goal look for dekoning and you’ll see he is totally cooked and can’t push back to help the defence that’s why I would play 2 genuine rucks to keep them fresh.

Ideally Owies isn’t in the side either but with our injuries at the moment I can understand why he got selected he also plays a completely different position to fisher so comparing them is irrelevant.

Personally I don’t think fisher’s role needs to be replaced If pittonett comes in Silvagni spends more time forward and is fresh from not being an undersized ruck, then I’d add honeys speed and genuine pressure into the team, honeys speed makes defenders panic no one is panicking when they see fisher coming at them.

Provided no injuries for this week
Newman Weitering Cowan
Saad Young McGovern
Hollands Cripps Acres
E.Curnow C.Curnow Martin
Motlop McKay Silvagni
Dekoning Hewitt Cerra
Doc Kennedy Pittonett Honey sub O’Brien

 

[Blue__Balls]

Well detailed BB



Hollands "might" be able to play that role right now, and LOB (another whipping boy) back to a wing, but we would need to find another rotation on the wing. I prefer 3 endurance beast for the wings, Cotts and Walsh returning will be interesting on selection



Carroll probably the best option, but we lose some nip and agility in an already slower area/team


Kennedy a great option forward, but more a Jsos or Martin replacement. Dow has never averaged more than 15 touches a game over any season, as a midfielder, Fisher playing a dual role has averaged more than 15 touches in 4 seasons


Better mix, but prefer they are rotating in both areas


Honey might be a better replacement for Owies, being slightly more versatile

Especially when Walsh returns, selection in a number spots will be interesting. I would rotate Hollands, Acres, Walsh on the wings



Cuners for impact, Cotts for consistency


Nice left of centre option, still believe Boyd could be our best small forward

Cowan could play that role in time, but maybe as a Martin replacement

Reasons for and against each, of course. I'm also not suggesting we should make the call right this minute, Fish is a senior player and probably deserves a chance to respond against Geelong.

There's also a question (externally anyway, the coaching group would have a better idea) on just why Fish completely dropped off the radar for the best part of three quarters. Was it system, and he was in the right place while the ball was going to the wrong spots? Was it system, and Fish was going to the wrong spots while the ball was going to the right spots? Was it a defensive job on him, and he needs to work through closer opposition attention? Was he given a defensive job on an opponent, and if so did he do it well enough to justify failing to find the ball? The root cause of the disappearance has a lot to say about how "fixable" it is, or how we should approach the possibility of moving magnets.

What I will say is that I struggle to see a valid reason for any player, let alone a 24yo with almost 100 games to his name, to go three quarters without touching the ball. It's not necessarily an immediate drop offence, but it does bear very close scrutiny over the coming month (and season) because that is the definition of a passenger, which is something we don't have the luxury of in a year where finals is the minimum expectation.

Should we determine in the coming weeks that Fisher's position isn't giving us the returns we need, then I see a number of alternatives that could be trialled, with a variety of flow-on effects to the forward/midfield structure, that should be strongly considered.

 

[Arr0w]

Broad and vlaustin were on the ground at the same time and shared the fisher matchup surely you can understand in modern football matchups don’t stay the same for the entire game.

Fisher should be getting more possessions than Martin and silvagni he plays higher up the ground and is in the play a lot more, Fisher kept getting sucked into the contest which is fine if he has an influence when he’s there but he did not.

Silvagni is being asked to do to much as an undersized ruckman then be a link up player to connect the forwards to the backs, pittonett should be in the side but I’m guessing the match committee thought he wasn’t ready yet, watch the minute leading up to the lynch goal look for dekoning and you’ll see he is totally cooked and can’t push back to help the defence that’s why I would play 2 genuine rucks to keep them fresh.

Ideally Owies isn’t in the side either but with our injuries at the moment I can understand why he got selected he also plays a completely different position to fisher so comparing them is irrelevant.

Personally I don’t think fisher’s role needs to be replaced If pittonett comes in Silvagni spends more time forward and is fresh from not being an undersized ruck, then I’d add honeys speed and genuine pressure into the team, honeys speed makes defenders panic no one is panicking when they see fisher coming at them.

Provided no injuries for this week
Newman Weitering Cowan
Saad Young McGovern
Hollands Cripps Acres
E.Curnow C.Curnow Martin
Motlop McKay Silvagni
Dekoning Hewitt Cerra
Doc Kennedy Pittonett Honey sub O’Brien

Not going to rehash the majority of your post

Owies being replaced by Honey, I am fine with, can't see Fisher being dropped after 1 poor game, where he wasn't the only poor contributor and certainly can't see Pitto replacing him, as we become slower again as a whole

I think, if Pitto comes in, it will be for Jsos