Ultimate Glory 2023 Trade speculation and Shinbeggars discussion

[toomanysquibs]

Well apparently it's performance ENHANCING so looks like we were all wrong haha

Even weed can be performance enhancing if you're someone with high anxiety. But it always struck me as highly suspicious that WC had the league's hardest runner and he just happened to have issues with a drug that clears your system too quickly to test for it.

He also shaved his head regularly during the latter part of his career.

Think it's been a part of footy for a long time at a guess.

 

[DogDaySonny]

this is true of most drugs. if you take them responsibly and with harm reduction practices they are by and large "safe" (as safe as something inherently risky can be). ofc the problem is they are addictive and most people simply cannot consume them "safely".

alcohol is no different except that it is viewed as a socially acceptable drug. it is a poison that causes damage to not only your body, but tears families and communities apart. it is the biggest voluntary burden on our public health system behind obesity and smoking. it accounts for nearly 5% of all injuries and diseases. i imagine it is responsible for a significant amount of domestic violence, certainly more so than cocaine, for example.

it's not the devil but it's easy to explain away alcohol as "fine" and illicit drugs as "bad" simply due to antiquated societal norms rather than any real scientific data.

anyway i am getting off topic here. the over-arching point I'm making is that the substance in a vacuum is largely irrelevant. it's how the substance is taken, how the athlete recovers from it, how often they take it, how much and so on. a couple of low-cal drinks on a Friday night and plenty of water will obviously not impede recovery and performance much. but neither would one small line at a dinner party.

EDIT: funny timing re the Joel Smith news haha

As a matter of logic, if they are all bad but only some are socially acceptable, isn’t that a good thing? Things that are bad for you should not, as a general rule, be socially acceptable. It seems that logically the glass-half-full perspective is to appreciate that many things are not socially acceptable, rather than lamenting that not all things are socially rejected or accepted based on whatever side of the issue one falls on.

 

[Topiary]

Exactly what part?

Nice snipe by the way.

Incredibly clever and well thought out.

I am referring to the consequences of the blow. Nothing else.

 

[H00t]

Well apparently it's performance ENHANCING so looks like we were all wrong haha

Only on game day isn’t it? Not good during the week but during game day a number of drugs would help the player push their body a lot further than they would normally.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

As a matter of logic, if they are all bad but only some are socially acceptable, isn’t that a good thing? Things that are bad for you should not, as a general rule, be socially acceptable. It seems that logically the glass-half-full perspective is to appreciate that many things are not socially acceptable, rather than lamenting that not all things are socially rejected or accepted based on whatever side of the issue one falls on.

Because putting things in a box as being good or bad doesn't work. Water is good for u but drink too much and u can die. Maccas is bad but a burger every now and then will make little difference. U think we should ban all maccas or u should be shunned from going there because it's "bad"? Many drugs aren't bad and many rely on them for survival. E.g. weed and anxiety as TSQ suggested

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

Only on game day isn’t it? Not good during the week but during game day a number of drugs would help the player push their body a lot further than they would normally.

He didn't take it on or before game day right? It was after I thought

 

[dermott]

You are not allowed to say that.

One would hope that players are more familiar with banned or prescribed substances than some posting on this thread.
Race going appears to be a less hazardous choice career wise.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

One would hope that players are more familiar with banned or prescribed substances than some posting on this thread.
Race going appears to be a less hazardous choice career wise.

Yeah lol I don't want players on my team to be on drugs as it is inherently risky but that's just the reality of young, popular men with lots of money. And admonishing them as a bad person or a trouble maker because of it isn't fair imo

 

[Hawkspot]

He didn't take it on or before game day right? It was after I thought

Tested directly after the game. Unless he’s snuck some in between the final siren and singing the team song, it was pregame.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

Tested directly after the game. Unless he’s snuck some in between the final siren and singing the team song, it was pregame.

Well there u go. If it wasn't just residual and he was actually using it as a PED, what a dumb campaigner

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Personally, I can see a lot of positives about the trade period from our end.
We know that the midfield was the big focus for 2023 and we saw the midfielders be able to build and develop into our most functioning line.
With the addition of Chol and Ginnivan, we have added a small forward who knows where the goals are and Chol can, at his best, be a very good option and hit the scoreboard.
Gunston comes in as a quasi forward line coach - his football IQ and intellect is something that we can use to assist with DGB and Rama. Would not surprise to see him transition into a role post football at the club in some type of coaching capacity.
Ryan is a loss, however from having spoken to Andy Collins toward the end of the season, there were question marks as to how much his fitness was going to be able to improve. Obviously there was a chance it would, but how much was always going to be the unknown.
Happy to back in what the club has been able to achieve and looking forward to seeing an improved showing in the forward half next year.

I think Ginnivan and Chol are good for at least 30 goals each.

Combined with the uplift this will give to our structure overall, we should see an addition of at least 70-80 goals to the side.

I’d be flaberghasted if we’re still bottom 4 for goals from inside 50’s in 2024.

 

[OnTheRocks]

Drinking can be bad, but you won’t have your heart cry uncle at 40 from it unless you really, really like it to Leaving Las Vegas type levels.

Fantastic movie.

 

[Goldnbrown]

Back on Topic.. I think we had a really good trade period. A few observations..
On Ryan - The Hawks offered him 1 year contract if he is as good as many on here seem to think, surely the club would have locked him away with 2 or 3 years?

On Ginnivan .. take a look at his goals over the past 2 seasons and see just how good this kid can be, then watch Collingwood's final against Melbourne, he came on as a sub and changed the game with his chasing, pressure and tackling.. for a bit there he was Cyril like. it is not as if we chose to swap Brockman for Ginnivan but I think we are getting an upgrade.

Chol has had a 40+ goal season.. I couldn't see Kosi kicking 40 goals over 3 seasons

Given how often our midfield won the centre clearances last season (and they will only get better) having a functional forward line should make a huge difference and all at the cost of a few late picks and F2 downgrade. We still have another elite talent to add at 4 plus our F/S's.

Go hawks!

 

[FuzwaldQO]

Our forward line was our biggest weakness and we have undoubtedly strengthened it this trade period, and that's without moving on any of our midfielders to do it. That's a big plus.

I'm surprised we didn't trade Meek though TBH. We may have got a decent pick (2nd or 3rd rounder).

Reeves hasn't played a full season yet. Not sure we can afford to trade Meek till he does.

That is a very real possibility.

Looking at the club draft picks, I can see lions asking for our pick 44 and swapping it for 51+67+F3. Just a bit under in points but we get F3 to make up for it.

In addition if we are able to make the trade for Pick 1, we need to force Suns to trade their 2 F3 picks if they don't want us to bid on Walter. Saves them 500 points.

Once we have these F3 picks, it gives options to trade back into the draft after McCabe bid.

The attached image is the 2024 draft picks based on current ladder.

View attachment 1835051

I can't see the Lions moving on any more futures when they have Levi Ashcroft coming in next year.

Genuinely shocked how many people are, without penalty or deletion, stating the McStay video thing is 100% fact - and likely on other forums here too. Bigfooty higher ups don’t know about Voller v Nationwide News Pty Ltd? Ginnivan is probably too much of a lad but if I was the player involved I’d be lawyering up right now.

I really don't get how people think it's fact at all. After viewing for research purposes, and a very quick comparison of the video and the photo that was going around as well, I can see quite clearly that the woman in the video has tatts on her arms whereas McStay's missus does not. It's not her. Looks a little like her I guess, but it's not. Hence I'd safely also say that it's not McStay either, and it's not Ginnivan recording it. Anyone believing that it is them are utter muppets.

 

[peetoo]

I think the club should be content with the trade period. We didn’t land any big fish or free agents but we improved the list in the part of the ground that was our biggest weakness

1. Ginnivan is better than Brockman. What happens in the future remains to be seen but they are the same age. 12 months ago Ginnivan goes for a first round pick. I am bullish on him and see this as the highlight.

2. Chol is better than Kosi. The talent is there. It’s all down to application. Not without risk with 4 years but there’s a clear role that suits him in the side.

3. Gunston is better than Ryan. That much is obvious but the age difference makes this one a bit curious. I didn’t see Ryan as best 22 moving forward so not too bothered.

4. Massimo came very cheap. Will he be best 22? Not sure. But he’s a list upgrade on Bramble

5. We have the points required to leave the draft with McCabe and Dear

All up, solid business.

We lost some players with upside and got some with different upside. Former or current hawks let’s hope they all achieve it

 

[badgrill]

Wrong press sorry

S

 

[BobHawk]

One would hope that players are more familiar with banned or prescribed substances than some posting on this thread.
Race going appears to be a less hazardous choice career wise.

Gambling addiction can be devastating. A young naive 20 year old on good money is a sitting duck esp., if he regularly goes to the track and has a public profile. The sharks will be circling. I'm not saying this is happening to Ginnivan but he fits a demographic for people that want to get at his money. They are wonderfully friendly and accommodating people. Very positive in everything they say and do. They treat you like someone special, privileges, freebies etc. etc. Basically, mafia types. Young blokes running on ego and testosterone are easy targets. Very easy.

On the drugs, aside from being illegal and all the associated health issues you have lots of questionable rubbish on the street containing all sorts of ingredients/substances. This is why testing at concerts and festivals is absolutely necessary. I think there were a couple of deaths at a Sydney festival only a couple of weeks ago. Young people want to experiment, makes them feel happy, smarter etc. etc. but its all false experiences based on overwhelming or stretching one's senses and sense.

 

[Iceman!]

I know most in here are all excited about our new guys. We’ve got a new forward line that will hopefully fire next year.

Once the new shine starts to come off with our forward line next year I think the sentiment has a very real chance of changing. We had to make these trades and they were the best available.

I just don’t see it improving our forward line much and it has the real potential to go backwards next year. No forward pressure and we need 4 sixths of our forward line to recapture their form from 2022 or earlier. With only one of those I’d back in to recapture it (Moore, not that he had a bad year this year, we will need him firing next year though)

This has the potential to have a very wide range of outcomes once the dust settles.

I think everyone is aware each of the players we added have flaws and that is why they came so cheap.

Simply put we have added 3 players who have kicked 40 plus goals in a year before and 2 of them you’d think has the potential to do it again.

Our forward pressure already wasn’t great, I’ll at least take some forwards who can hit the scoreboard if they are just going to run it out of our forward 50.

 

[Coathanger]

Ginnivan will kick 15 goals just by feasting on Ned and Meek's concrete hands when they go forward.

 

[WWSD]

Any amount of games Wingard plays in the second half of 2024 will be a bonus.

Jiath coming back from injury will be like having a new recruit. He’s overcome that wrist injury and should be available for day 1 of pre-season training.

Adding Chol (key forward), Gunston (medium forward) & Ginnivan (small forward) gives us a better mix.

I’d say no one would be more pleased with these changes than Mitchell Lewis

2

Mitchell Lewis

Age

26

Ht

199cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.5

2star

K

5.9

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

3.4

3star

T

1.3

3star

G

1.2

4star

D

4.3

1star

K

2.8

1star

HB

1.5

1star

M

0.8

1star

T

0.3

1star

G

0.3

3star

D

8.6

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.6

3star

. He will have a much better supporting cast.

 

[toomanysquibs]

I am referring to the consequences of the blow. Nothing else.

Misconstrued your point on that one I think. I'm a dick like that sometimes.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

And I'm sure you're also only speaking up only after consuming multiple peer reviewed and published research papers, from the very pointy end of the global cardiology community.

I think Tops may have been agreeing with you all along. That's how I read it.

 

[KermitJagger]

anyway i am getting off topic here. the over-arching point I'm making is that the substance in a vacuum is largely irrelevant. it's how the substance is taken, how the athlete recovers from it, how often they take it, how much and so on. a couple of low-cal drinks on a Friday night and plenty of water will obviously not impede recovery and performance much. but neither would one small line at a dinner party.

EDIT: funny timing re the Joel Smith news haha

I think the key point is that if you end up with substances in a vacuum it's because you've spilt it and that's a big time party foul.

 

[Bugs1977]

We didn't get Schultz last year because we were a terrible side, widely panned by the media who looked like we had a long road of rebuilding ahead of us. Collingwood are the reigning premiers.

We need to stop thinking that just because we've had success in the past, players will want to come to us. Let's start winning some games of football first.

Sneak into top 8 next year with still one of the youngest teams in the comp - and let's talk. Will be a different story then.

Which is why it was so important for us to structure up in this trade period. We're far from a complete product but I feel we're primed to win 10-11 games next season which will definitely turn the eyes of oppo players and the anti-Hawthorn media.

 

[Topiary]

Which is why it was so important for us to structure up in this trade period. We're far from a complete product but I feel we're primed to win 10-11 games next season which will definitely turn the eyes of oppo players and the anti-Hawthorn media.

Don’t get me wrong I get the Schultz and Collingwood story, and I know I am in the McKay minority, but we need to be prepared to break through with our FA strategy. We realised with Chol and Ginnivan we had to be prepared to offer broader terms and money. This is a a good thing.

I am afraid the McKay pay will become the norm. It is fact. It is reality. That is what the market demands. Right or wrong.

I know we were prepared to ultimately go long term with big money if we were to land a fish like Naughton. It forced the Dogs hand at least, but that is where we need to go in my opinion.