List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

[George]

 

[Mowman]

But we did improve after those players left, which is the argument I was opposing.

Don't think we did

 

[austinnn]

Don't think we did

Fair enough. I don't have it in me to do the research and brainwork involved to debate it properly.

 

[Mowman]

Fair enough. I don't have it in me to do the research and brainwork involved to debate it properly.

I just think it was all down hill when we let those 3 go

 

[stavro#4]

I just don't understand what is left to find out. We blooded heaps of young players under Ratten. I don't think we need to spend an entire year figuring out if a handful of players will make it or not. We finished 10th and 10th the last two years, to me we don't have a premiership list and that hasn't been developed properly so we will need to undertake a rebuild to fix that, primarily the issues we now face of having brought in older established players for the sake of going to the draft. Why does a coach like Ross Lyon need 12 months to figure that out? Our deficiencies seem pretty obvious.

However, with the list we currently have, we should be playing finals this year. If we missed by a game last year, have an easier schedule this year coupled with an apparently vastly improved coaching staff and standards, then finding 1 or 2 wins should not be a problem.

To me (and probably others), spending a year to "find out" about players seems like an excuse. If Ross truly believes in a possibility mindset then why doesn't he apply that thinking to this year. He has deliberately watered down expectation with the "year of exploration" stuff but we shouldn't just accept that, we have a list capable of playing finals and so that should be the aim. Fremantle had 14 wins and finished 7th the first year under Ross in a year he said that he needed to find out about the list as well. No reason why that can't be us.

I feel like the narrative coming from him is that we are going to slide a bit because we're going to try new things and play kids. We've played kids last year and the year before that. We can do both.

It won't take much either - a bit of mental fortitude instilled into the players should be enough to get 1 or 2 more wins. If they actually have a crack every quarter of every game that's all it will take, too often we have gone to sleep or not turned up and it has cost us come the end of the year. It won't take much to find ourselves playing finals this year. I don't understand why people are okay with us not making the eight - it's gettable and we should be expecting it as supporters.

I think there will always be some excuse. Some will use injury as an excuse to say that they didn't find out about so and so player and because of this, 2024 is the real year we find out. We're all sick of waiting around lol. It didn't stop Collingwood last year or Geelong, WB and Sydney rebuilding and still challenging. If the club reckons they can do both then why not set expectations at finals as a minimum and along the way we will find out about a few. It doesn't seem like the focus is about finals for us, it just seems like a bonus if it happens.

I want us to be an elite team and to quit pushing the deadlines back. We've never been this good off-field and now, arguably, never had this amount of expertise in the coaches box. You may be more patient than I am but I still believe missing finals would be a failure. Winning does wonders for players and especially winning big games. I would take that any day over finishing 9th with a better pick.

I’m not sure I can be much clearer in explaining what is left to find out.

In short, the afl world think we lack stars and top level players.

Without those, we won’t ever win a flag.

Now, you could argue that you require great coaching and a strong level of investment in your football department to deliver that - aswell as matching that investment into your list management department.

The club have clearly done this part.

So that removes the excuses of elite coaching and an elite performance environment. It has invested in a more fleshed out list management department- which will hopefully reap dividends this year.

That means the only question left is the players inherited. Are they good enough?

That’s what Ross has to explore.

I’m not writing off finals. But on the same hand I have no interest in making a finals series to then go backwards in 1-2 seasons if we are kicking the can down the road to a degree if the list isn’t good enough.

So this year of “exploration” that has got a few of you up in arms - is just about the quality of the list.

Surely as a supporter. You want concrete answers as opposed to blind faith about certain players we pin our hopes on?

Surely it’s time the likes of Clark Higgins Bytel Coffield Roma Membrey Gresham etc start to deliver on promising seasons or an abundance of potential and become stars of the game?

That’s the exploration. Because for one reason or another. We have had 2 All Australians in a decade since the old brigade.

We have had 1 finals series since 2011.

I’m not sure everyone we rave on about as supporters is cut out for the top end of the league. But I’m curious to see how many show they should be here going forward via their onfield performances and who shows they need to be moved on.

 

[gringo2011]

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Butane in my veins and I'm out to cut the junkie

Now I've got Loser stuck in my head and a hankering for joining the scientologists.

 

[bird_man]

That song gives me flash backs of smoking bucket bongs in my mates laundry

 

[gringo2011]

I’m not sure I can be much clearer in explaining what is left to find out.

In short, the afl world think we lack stars and top level players.

Without those, we won’t ever win a flag.

Now, you could argue that you require great coaching and a strong level of investment in your football department to deliver that - aswell as matching that investment into your list management department.

The club have clearly done this part.

So that removes the excuses of elite coaching and an elite performance environment. It has invested in a more fleshed out list management department- which will hopefully reap dividends this year.

That means the only question left is the players inherited. Are they good enough?

That’s what Ross has to explore.

I’m not writing off finals. But on the same hand I have no interest in making a finals series to then go backwards in 1-2 seasons if we are kicking the can down the road to a degree if the list isn’t good enough.

So this year of “exploration” that has got a few of you up in arms - is just about the quality of the list.

Surely as a supporter. You want concrete answers as opposed to blind faith about certain players we pin our hopes on?

Surely it’s time the likes of Clark Higgins Bytel Coffield Roma Membrey Gresham etc start to deliver on promising seasons or an abundance of potential and become stars of the game?

That’s the exploration. Because for one reason or another. We have had 2 All Australians in a decade since the old brigade.

We have had 1 finals series since 2011.

I’m not sure everyone we rave on about as supporters is cut out for the top end of the league. But I’m curious to see how many show they should be here going forward via their onfield performances and who shows they need to be moved on.

I think we all know that we were disinterested in list management and drafting for years and so have holes everywhere. You usually get the better players in the first round and the higher the better. We blew Tom Lee, McCartin, Billings, Hugh Goddard, Acres, Dunstan, McKenzie, traded out a year to get Clark and Coffield the next year and neither are established yet, Allison and Nas might go home etc.

King and Gresham were the only good players taken in years of first rounds. Pretty much since Brendan Goddard. We also traded for speculative players like Freeman with our second rounders and over paid for guys like Hill and Howard who are underwhelming. Steele was the only great get from the trades.

If you wanted to make it impossible to improve you'd do what we have done for years and never get around to addressing it.

I don't see how losing the ones that are good is a path to improvement. What we need is a premium talent identifier and have them able to make the calls on players at the draft. Unbelievable that we still haven't chased the best recruiting talent in the league. I'd pay more for that wage than anyone else in the club.

 

[stavro#4]

I think we all know that we were disinterested in list management and drafting for years and so have holes everywhere. You usually get the better players in the first round and the higher the better. We blew Tom Lee, McCartin, Billings, Hugh Goddard, Acres, Dunstan, McKenzie, traded out a year to get Clark and Coffield the next year and neither are established yet, Allison and Nas might go home etc.

King and Gresham were the only good players taken in years of first rounds. Pretty much since Brendan Goddard. We also traded for speculative players like Freeman with our second rounders and over paid for guys like Hill and Howard who are underwhelming. Steele was the only great get from the trades.

If you wanted to make it impossible to improve you'd do what we have done for years and never get around to addressing it.

I don't see how losing the ones that are good is a path to improvement. What we need is a premium talent identifier and have them able to make the calls on players at the draft. Unbelievable that we still haven't chased the best recruiting talent in the league. I'd pay more for that wage than anyone else in the club.

We call lots of players good and yet we don’t have much success.

Which is what I think we will find out under this “year of exploration”.

You out of every poster should be thrilled that we might POTENTIALLY hit the draft with intent or fulfil the potential that sees us become contenders.

 

[Saint Ray]

Don't think we did

Of course we didn't.

 

[gringo2011]

We call lots of players good and yet we don’t have much success.

Which is what I think we will find out under this “year of exploration”.

You out of every poster should be thrilled that we might POTENTIALLY hit the draft with intent or fulfil the potential that sees us become contenders.

With pretty much a legacy set up rather than a new experienced set up from outside the club. We can't afford to sell off talent and hope that we get them right, that's how the last stuffed up era started- selling McEvoy, Dal, Goddard etc.

We have **** all worth trading that we don't need. Gresham isn't getting a pick before 20. The guys that we would let go aren't going to get us much back. Our injuries are probably more likely to get us a high pick that anything on our list.

Realistically the board won't survive if they send us bottom 4 for another few years no matter how much belief the fans have in Lyon.

 

[George]

Agree man, loser mentality, but but but but every year...

Don’t post here very often but wanted to say I can see the myriad points of view in this latest discussion but I have to say my excitement of Ross and the old boys assembling at the bottom of Everest is starting to be tempered by this ‘year of exploration’ monologue. I fully agree it is a year of exploration but Ross was brought in, so we were told, to improve the culture, professionalism and standards.

( A broken Hannebery was also once brought in to improve training standards, that is how appalling Richardson and his gormless cronies were. They could not identify and fix it themselves and then they had a gameplan of rabid monkeys. And Ratten I think had antiquated game plans, poor leadership and oratory skills. And lived off Clarkson like a remora on a shark.)



Perhaps I am naïve but I would have thought Ross, Banger, Hayes etc meant an improvement on last year not a regression. I am not expecting us to finish top four and with all the injuries we are having perhaps 8th is even unrealistic. But I would expect at least two more wins on last year.

Better draw and IMO a better squad.

If we do finish bottom four then I feel the board spills and Lethlean falls on his sword. We can’t keep accepting this mediocrity, these yearly excuses.

Absolutely though this is the year where we develop and challenge. If we are not good enough ok. Then we develop and challenge again in 2024. My view of the Ross appointment is that he is here to establish the develop/challenge model and to set all our club standards at a height that we don’t lower from.

As the previous posters - GRINGO, Mowman, George have said, I hope the club knows and enacts a dedicated, strategic course of action behind the scenes and holds high expectations for improvement this year, and the next and next. I won’t abide more of this ****** a corpse crap we have had for a decade. I am not a young man anymore.

The first two things I will be looking for are selection integrity (when we have a 90% fit squad) and no losses more than two goals in the first 5 rounds.
don
We can be better and better again next year but don't give ourselves an out before round 1.

Terrific post. Not a young man anymore hit home with me. I was 20 years old last time we were in a GF. It seems like it was a lifetime ago. I see posters older than me almost resigned to the fact they'll never see a flag, whilst others older than I am have moved past giving outs to the club and are exhausted, they want success now.

You never know if we'll ever get back, and so the anxiety and desperation grows year on year. When I left the G after the 2010 GF, I didn't once think that it would take us another 13 years + to get back there again. It's just like we're in a trance. We need to snap ourselves out of it and realise that this isn't a merry go round, our time to win a premiership doesn't fall in our lap, we need to take it and realise that if we don't then it may just never come.

I said before that I think we're burdened by our history. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad we made change and think we will be better for it. I expect a well drilled, improved side under Ross. But lets not try and be conservative. I want us to go for it 100% and if we fail then fine. I am ok with losing provided we gave it our all. We need to hold these people more accountable and expect more from them. We've been taken for a ride since Ross left, told 2018 was the year we'd be formidable again and it's been excuses since. I'm eating humble pie and sound like a hypocrit because I was defending the club not too long ago but I've had enough of people coming into our club and playing with it like it's a football manager video game.

We missed the eight by a game last year. We now have a much easier schedule and a much better coaching group. We need to sell the season to supporters, we need to get on the front foot and say finals is the expectation, it's not going to take as much to get there but we will be balanced in our approach in terms of selection, we need to blood a few guys, find out about a few others, but we won't compromise that for a chance at making the eight.

To me, the talk insinuates a year of dropping down the ladder, building through the draft, lowering expectations. We need to build through the draft definitely but what is more important to build culture is winning, and we have a team capable of winning enough games to play finals this year and so to me we should be doing both - winning games of football and developing our young players. In our 150th year it would be great to break free of the burden of our history and truly become an elite football program.and club. It would be incredible. I think we have the people there to do it, and so lets be unrelenting in getting there.

 

[George]

I’m not sure I can be much clearer in explaining what is left to find out.

In short, the afl world think we lack stars and top level players.

Without those, we won’t ever win a flag.

Now, you could argue that you require great coaching and a strong level of investment in your football department to deliver that - aswell as matching that investment into your list management department.

The club have clearly done this part.

So that removes the excuses of elite coaching and an elite performance environment. It has invested in a more fleshed out list management department- which will hopefully reap dividends this year.

That means the only question left is the players inherited. Are they good enough?

That’s what Ross has to explore.

I’m not writing off finals. But on the same hand I have no interest in making a finals series to then go backwards in 1-2 seasons if we are kicking the can down the road to a degree if the list isn’t good enough.

So this year of “exploration” that has got a few of you up in arms - is just about the quality of the list.

Surely as a supporter. You want concrete answers as opposed to blind faith about certain players we pin our hopes on?

Surely it’s time the likes of Clark Higgins Bytel Coffield Roma Membrey Gresham etc start to deliver on promising seasons or an abundance of potential and become stars of the game?

That’s the exploration. Because for one reason or another. We have had 2 All Australians in a decade since the old brigade.

We have had 1 finals series since 2011.

I’m not sure everyone we rave on about as supporters is cut out for the top end of the league. But I’m curious to see how many show they should be here going forward via their onfield performances and who shows they need to be moved on.

I'm agreeing with you, lets remember that. I just don't think it needs to take this long to find out about our list. The ones I listed before as potential AA are not being held back in my opinion because of coaching, I actually think they will eventually get to that stage in their careers naturally - some already have. It's not so much a case of Ross figuring out if they are good enough or not, I believe they are on the path there already.

I understand it will take time to install a gameplan and structure, but I don't expect it to take a year and I would still expect with the talent we have on the list, potential or not, we should be playing finals.

I don't want us moving down the ladder in 1 or 2 seasons if we make finals this year, and who says that that's going to happen if we don't blood kids and find out about players this year? My point is that we should be aiming to be elite and so we can both find out about players and play finals. I want a football club that continually develops their players and continuously puts itself in positions to win premierships. By you saying that finals could be a detriment to our long term success leads me to believe that you don't think we can both find out about the list and play finals.

My argument is that we certainly can and we should be aiming for that, and with that I think the messaging externally should be the same. Lets not water us down with low expectations. Lets ****ing go for it, create an elite environment, put together a gameplan that stands up and wins games, develop players throughout the year, come to September having had the players taste finals footy and have a clear idea of where we need to improve heading into 2024. We can do all of it.

And I actually trust Ross to get the most out of this group, I don't have an issue with him improving standards and players development under him. It's just the messaging that bums me out, we've just got to be bolder, more hellbent and unwavering in wanting to be truly elite.

 

[gringo2011]

Terrific post. Not a young man anymore hit home with me. I was 20 years old last time we were in a GF. It seems like it was a lifetime ago. I see posters older than me almost resigned to the fact they'll never see a flag, whilst others older than I am have moved past giving outs to the club and are exhausted, they want success now.

You never know if we'll ever get back, and so the anxiety and desperation grows year on year. When I left the G after the 2010 GF, I didn't once think that it would take us another 13 years + to get back there again. It's just like we're in a trance. We need to snap ourselves out of it and realise that this isn't a merry go round, our time to win a premiership doesn't fall in our lap, we need to take it and realise that if we don't then it may just never come.

I said before that I think we're burdened by our history. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad we made change and think we will be better for it. I expect a well drilled, improved side under Ross. But lets not try and be conservative. I want us to go for it 100% and if we fail then fine. I am ok with losing provided we gave it our all. We need to hold these people more accountable and expect more from them. We've been taken for a ride since Ross left, told 2018 was the year we'd be formidable again and it's been excuses since. I'm eating humble pie and sound like a hypocrit because I was defending the club not too long ago but I've had enough of people coming into our club and playing with it like it's a football manager video game.

We missed the eight by a game last year. We now have a much easier schedule and a much better coaching group. We need to sell the season to supporters, we need to get on the front foot and say finals is the expectation, it's not going to take as much to get there but we will be balanced in our approach in terms of selection, we need to blood a few guys, find out about a few others, but we won't compromise that for a chance at making the eight.

To me, the talk insinuates a year of dropping down the ladder, building through the draft, lowering expectations. We need to build through the draft definitely but what is more important to build culture is winning, and we have a team capable of winning enough games to play finals this year and so to me we should be doing both - winning games of football and developing our young players. In our 150th year it would be great to break free of the burden of our history and truly become an elite football program.and club. It would be incredible. I think we have the people there to do it, and so lets be unrelenting in getting there.

I'm 100% with you but understand that if we keep getting injured that we might lose games, but at a very minimum I want standards and obvious systems. There has to be something to show for the pain. Kids need to be showing that their development is improving and there are smart decisions on players futures, not knee jerk sell offs to buy time.

And most of all I want our ADHD administration to look like they have a grip on the direction of the club and aren't running in 4 directions at once or moving off the line the moment it gets hard.

The 8 last year doesn't mean much year to year. 2 years ago 2 games against Gold Coast was 2 wins but this year it might be 2 losses. Same with GWS, they may actually improve despite the changes. As long as there is tangible improvement I can take a year of adjustment.

 

[stavro#4]

I'm agreeing with you, lets remember that. I just don't think it needs to take this long to find out about our list. The ones I listed before as potential AA are not being held back in my opinion because of coaching, I actually think they will eventually get to that stage in their careers naturally - some already have. It's not so much a case of Ross figuring out if they are good enough or not, I believe they are on the path there already.

I understand it will take time to install a gameplan and structure, but I don't expect it to take a year and I would still expect with the talent we have on the list, potential or not, we should be playing finals.

I don't want us moving down the ladder in 1 or 2 seasons if we make finals this year, and who says that that's going to happen if we don't blood kids and find out about players this year? My point is that we should be aiming to be elite and so we can both find out about players and play finals. I want a football club that continually develops their players and continuously puts itself in positions to win premierships. By you saying that finals could be a detriment to our long term success leads me to believe that you don't think we can both find out about the list and play finals.

My argument is that we certainly can and we should be aiming for that, and with that I think the messaging externally should be the same. Lets not water us down with low expectations. Lets ******* go for it, create an elite environment, put together a gameplan that stands up and wins games, develop players throughout the year, come to September having had the players taste finals footy and have a clear idea of where we need to improve heading into 2024. We can do all of it.

And I actually trust Ross to get the most out of this group, I don't have an issue with him improving standards and players development under him. It's just the messaging that bums me out, we've just got to be bolder, more hellbent and unwavering in wanting to be truly elite.

But your effectively getting bummed out by your interpretation of “a year of exploration”

That could mean anything.

But your interpretation of it is that we are going to go backwards.

And for what it’s worth. Your first paragraph.
If the ones you listed are that good. We wouldn’t be in year 1 under Ross. Because they would have made finals in either of the last 2 years and saved Rattens job.

I think a lot of those blokes have potential to be seriously better then what they consistently dish up

 

[gringo2011]

I'm agreeing with you, lets remember that. I just don't think it needs to take this long to find out about our list. The ones I listed before as potential AA are not being held back in my opinion because of coaching, I actually think they will eventually get to that stage in their careers naturally - some already have. It's not so much a case of Ross figuring out if they are good enough or not, I believe they are on the path there already.

I understand it will take time to install a gameplan and structure, but I don't expect it to take a year and I would still expect with the talent we have on the list, potential or not, we should be playing finals.

I don't want us moving down the ladder in 1 or 2 seasons if we make finals this year, and who says that that's going to happen if we don't blood kids and find out about players this year? My point is that we should be aiming to be elite and so we can both find out about players and play finals. I want a football club that continually develops their players and continuously puts itself in positions to win premierships. By you saying that finals could be a detriment to our long term success leads me to believe that you don't think we can both find out about the list and play finals.

My argument is that we certainly can and we should be aiming for that, and with that I think the messaging externally should be the same. Lets not water us down with low expectations. Lets ******* go for it, create an elite environment, put together a gameplan that stands up and wins games, develop players throughout the year, come to September having had the players taste finals footy and have a clear idea of where we need to improve heading into 2024. We can do all of it.

And I actually trust Ross to get the most out of this group, I don't have an issue with him improving standards and players development under him. It's just the messaging that bums me out, we've just got to be bolder, more hellbent and unwavering in wanting to be truly elite.

So many games were lost through a lack of mental fortitude. If Ross is a good coach he should be able to stabilise performance and have us keep our spines erect. System footy is about taking away variables and giving consistency of performance. Time for him together to work.

 

[gringo2011]

But your effectively getting bummed out by your interpretation of “a year of exploration”

That could mean anything.

But your interpretation of it is that we are going to go backwards.

And for what it’s worth. Your first paragraph.
If the ones you listed are that good. We wouldn’t be in year 1 under Ross. Because they would have made finals in either of the last 2 years and saved Rattens job.

I think a lot of those blokes have potential to be seriously better then what they consistently dish up

I don't want to speak for others but to me the club is starting to talk their way out of expectations. In our 150th we should be able to go to the footy without having to interpret vague statements as our theme for the year.

 

[George]

I'm 100% with you but understand that if we keep getting injured that we might lose games, but at a very minimum I want standards and obvious systems. There has to be something to show for the pain. Kids need to be showing that their development is improving and there are smart decisions on players futures, not knee jerk sell offs to buy time.

And most of all I want our ADHD administration to look like they have a grip on the direction of the club and aren't running in 4 directions at once or moving off the line the moment it gets hard.

The 8 last year doesn't mean much year to year. 2 years ago 2 games against Gold Coast was 2 wins but this year it might be 2 losses. Same with GWS, they may actually improve despite the changes. As long as there is tangible improvement I can take a year of adjustment.

Oh I'm fine with that. My point of view is that if we give 110% every quarter of every game we will have done enough to play finals. If we do this and other circumstances prevent us making the eight, namely injuries, then that's okay but I want to see consistently great effort. We are such a mentally weak side and that needs to improve tenfold.

But your effectively getting bummed out by your interpretation of “a year of exploration”

That could mean anything.

But your interpretation of it is that we are going to go backwards.

And for what it’s worth. Your first paragraph.
If the ones you listed are that good. We wouldn’t be in year 1 under Ross. Because they would have made finals in either of the last 2 years and saved Rattens job.

I think a lot of those blokes have potential to be seriously better then what they consistently dish up

You're probably right on my interpretation of it. But it's all subjective isn't it? That's why our views differ. I just see it as watering down expectation, and I hope that that's not the case and we end up with finals and better understanding of the list. Nobody actually knows the true meaning of it until they see the sides we roll out every week. If it's full of kids and players playing different roles then it'll be more obvious that finals isn't a priority.

I don't think the ones we listed are that good yet, I said they have the potential to get there and naturally will. The list is good enough to play and possibly win a final, the gameplan (as of last year at least) was terrible. With one of the best coaches in the last 20 years directing traffic I think we can become truly elite, I just don't think we believe it yet...which is frustrating.

 

[stavro#4]

“In the first four years of Ross’ tenure back at the club, we’re going to be relentless in pursuing having this club contending for a flag. We’ll be fitter than we ever have been – and we are – and there will be significant expectations on delivering 100 per cent effort.

There’s certainly a different feel around the footy program and the intensity and demands that Ross brings, and the other parts of the club are flourishing too with our 150th year.

“So the fans can be clear on those things. Where that lands us after Round 23 this year, I don’t think we’ll know until the season is well underway, but there’s enough there that the fans can expect of us.”
- Lethlean

I don't want to speak for others but to me the club is starting to talk their way out of expectations. In our 150th we should be able to go to the footy without having to interpret vague statements as our theme for the year.

 

[stavro#4]

Who were the blokes saying De Goey was overrated?

 

[gringo2011]

Who were the blokes saying De Goey was overrated?

He's a gun.

 

[stavro#4]

He's a gun.

We had posters saying he was overrated last free agency

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Who were the blokes saying De Goey was overrated?

The same ones saying Taranto is no good

 

[lewdogs]

Who were the blokes saying De Goey was overrated?

Unfortunately we are never going to get a player like him. Collingwood are a massive club and when they're up and about winning finals etc to get someone to leave would be an enormous ask.

It's amazing we actually got as close as we did to him but it was only due to the club's (Collingwood's) stubbornness. Still glad we had a crack.

 

[gringo2011]

The same ones saying Taranto is no good

And Mitchell and Ratta and....

 

[gringo2011]

Unfortunately we are never going to get a player like him. Collingwood are a massive club and when they're up and about winning finals etc to get someone to leave would be an enormous ask.

It's amazing we actually got as close as we did to him but it was only due to the club's (Collingwood's) stubbornness. Still glad we had a crack.

Just need Gresham to be our De Goey or Phillipou to become a star at least.