Cripps winning is wonderful. Pretty much guarantees Carlton won’t get near any team silverware for another decade. Individual glory goes to their heads as a club.
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Oppo Camp 2024 Finals Discussion (other games)
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Worth a Kick
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Who gets the job of voting though? Mids when every other award be it Media, coaches or players/player. It’s just how it is.
DogDaySonny
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My view is that the Brownlow voting has the most integrity and accuracy when it picks a first time winner, someone without the “approved winner” stamp. This isn’t a strict rule as there are always exceptions. Nick Daicos will violate that rule. Matthew Priddis did. But by and large first time winners tend to be better choices as they had to fight their way above the approved narrative.
I have no idea how to improve the system other than perhaps a blend of umpire (50%), coaches (25%), and fans (25%) voting on each game each week. Or something along those lines.
I have no idea how to improve the system other than perhaps a blend of umpire (50%), coaches (25%), and fans (25%) voting on each game each week. Or something along those lines.
unitedhawk
Team Captain
I wonder how many coaches' votes Blake Hardwick has received over the years. Would be a heck of a lot more than two!
Fwiw, I regard the coaches' votes as being more relevant than those from umpires, who have enough to focus their attention on during games without having to worry about who's having a good game and who isn't. Who knows, perhaps they might even improve their core task of umpiring the game if the responsibility of allocating Brownlow votes was taken away from them!
Why not have an independent adjudicator for 3-2-1 Brownlow votes at each game? All you'll need is a rotating panel comprising around a dozen folk. The votes can be sealed as they're currently done, to preserve security.
We already have a panel for Norm Smith votes for the GF. Why not extend that for the Brownlow? We might then even have defenders or forwards winning it occasionally...
Fwiw, I regard the coaches' votes as being more relevant than those from umpires, who have enough to focus their attention on during games without having to worry about who's having a good game and who isn't. Who knows, perhaps they might even improve their core task of umpiring the game if the responsibility of allocating Brownlow votes was taken away from them!
Why not have an independent adjudicator for 3-2-1 Brownlow votes at each game? All you'll need is a rotating panel comprising around a dozen folk. The votes can be sealed as they're currently done, to preserve security.
We already have a panel for Norm Smith votes for the GF. Why not extend that for the Brownlow? We might then even have defenders or forwards winning it occasionally...
Enjoy the Browlow for what it is
A promotional tool for WAGs and Sports betting agencies.
It puts the AFL in the media spotight.
Do not expect the winner to be without doubt the best player in the game.
The chance of a random upset is a great part of the awards mystique. (See betting agencies as above)
A promotional tool for WAGs and Sports betting agencies.
It puts the AFL in the media spotight.
Do not expect the winner to be without doubt the best player in the game.
The chance of a random upset is a great part of the awards mystique. (See betting agencies as above)
1. Coaches votes can be manipulated. We've seen Chris Scott give players votes in games they weren't in the top players by any metric.
2. Panels don't work. aa is proof of that. As is the 3 times Dustin Martin won the norm Smith when he wasn't in the top players on the ground (ok, he maybe deserved one)
KermitJagger
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When Swan set the record at what felt like an unbeatable 34, he averaged 32 disposals, kicked 32 goals. When Danger broke it, he did it with 32 disposals and 24 goals. When Dusty broke it again, he did it with an insane 30 disposals, 37 goals and 9 score involvements.
Somehow Cripps has broken the record by 9 votes with 28 and 17. His other stats aren't even better, ground ball, clearances all either slightly worse or the same.
Sturty
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Anyone catch AFL360 last night when Mcrae said he gave best coach votes to Donuts Hinkley?
Ned Ryerson
Future Captain
Agreed with your overall point but Dusty was easily in the best players every time he won a Norm - he just should have been runner up to Houli at least once if not twice.
Ned Ryerson
Future Captain
Anyone catch AFL360 last night when Mcrae said he gave best coach votes to Donuts Hinkley?
The more he talks the less I like him - so glad we ended up with Sam and not him.
Mercy Seat
Norm Smith Medallist
The fact there are now 4 umps now, I think these things become more of a "decision by committee" where they err on the side of reputation. Umps are under so much more scrutiny and pressure in today's game, I don't envy them having to decide the votes as well at the end of the game. I'm not sure what the answer is because we already have prestigious awards decided by coaches / panels.
grumbleguts
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We could use the AA panel that would... WHAT AM I SAYING?
cryptor
Brownlow Medallist
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The only other Carlton mid who is likely to get votes is Walsh and he had a down year by his standards. The rest of the firepower at Carlton are in the arcs and they need to have especially good games to get votes over a clearance winning mid.
The umps are seduced by the clearance bulls who win the centre clearance, burst away and then either kick the goal on the run or hit up a target inside 50. The controlling umpire who does the centre bounce has front row seats to that show potentially multiple times a game and at least one of the other umpires will be watching that play unfold from the half forward line.
It also helps that the centre bounce always happens after a restart in play (goal or start of quarter) so there is always a clear delineation between that play and everything else, along with a limited number of players in the area. Most other great pieces of play during a game could be lost in the chaos of what happened immediately before or after that moment and be crowded with double or more players in the area.
DogDaySonny
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Anyone catch AFL360 last night when Mcrae said he gave best coach votes to Donuts Hinkley?
The Club is circling the wagons. It's why the media all jumped to Hinkley's defence after frying him for the two previous months.
More important than insightful commentary is that only certified Club members may criticise and legitimately pass judgment. So, when K-K-K-Ken's performance becomes the subject of non-Club discussion, the Club deligitimises it. Ginni gets too fresh and doesn't show the Club the deference they expect, then they will get Ginni as soon as the opportunity presents itself.
Of all truths, this must be remembered: The Club runs the show and the Club alone decides who gets to be in the Club.
DogDaySonny
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No one ever got fired for buying IBM, as the saying goes. Likewise, no ump ever got criticised for picking Cripps (or Daicos, or...) for BOG in any one game.
unitedhawk
Team Captain
I'd suggest any panel would be better than the current scenario, not least because of the collateral benefit of allowing the umpires to focus on... umpiring!
KermitJagger
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There is no solution to fix it. Everyone talks about making changes to the Brownlow, but then it wouldn't be the Brownlow. The only thing we can do is just collectively care less about it.
hawkinoz
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Only solution is each ump names their top 4 players.
With 4 umps, they either have 4 players or 16
They then cast their 3-2-1 votes from this list. Votes collated to get the final 3-2-1 votes.
Again since voting is at end of game, the recency bias can make Umps focus more on those who finished the game strongly.
So follow same process as above for umps at half time, just the Top 3 players at half time are automatically added to list at end of game for voting & process repeated.
A localised app(html page) that stores no data, no server, and just takes inputs can spit out the votes and maintain privacy of votes if doing it all on paper is hard work.
With 4 umps, they either have 4 players or 16
They then cast their 3-2-1 votes from this list. Votes collated to get the final 3-2-1 votes.
Again since voting is at end of game, the recency bias can make Umps focus more on those who finished the game strongly.
So follow same process as above for umps at half time, just the Top 3 players at half time are automatically added to list at end of game for voting & process repeated.
A localised app(html page) that stores no data, no server, and just takes inputs can spit out the votes and maintain privacy of votes if doing it all on paper is hard work.
This is because only Geelong and the 8 Non victorian sides get true home games so end up finishing higher on the ladder. And when they get home finals they get true home ground and home crowd advantage.
Melbourne teams play 80% of their games away or neutral venue. At best you get to play a side at your home ground who has played multiple away games there.
Razor Ray said that the umpires do take notes during the game and show other umpires though they can't really discuss it as they are mic'd up so have to assume it's a hot mic so they risk leaking votes. after the game they discuss and it has to be unanimous.
cryptor
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Field umpires have to run what, like 20km or more a game on top of all the highly scrutinised decision making they need to make during the match?
Surely by the end of it they're so physically and mentally tired that they couldn't really give a shit to sit down and argue who truly deserves the votes for an award that will trigger a contract bonus for the winner that's bigger than their annual salary.
It's not like they're individually accountable for specific votes, and as an umpiring collective they're going to cop criticism regardless of who wins anyway.
Yep, I know.
Which is why those teams are more likely to make finals, because it's based on H&A, but then more likely to beaten in finals, particularly when coming up against a team that hasn't had the same advantages. The extra skew is that these teams are also more likely to get a home ground advantage during finals series.
grumbleguts
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Daicos got 15 touches and subbed out at 3qt. Got a vote. His brother got 34 touches played the whole game, didn't get a vote. The entire thing is bullshit. The umpires are bullshit, the Brownlow is bullshit, the whole shit show is bullshit.
DogDaySonny
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