List Mgmt. 2024 List Mismanagement and Trading

[Scorpus]

Talk about pushing shit uphill. He's never shown any ability to accumulate possessions, let alone become a "reliable accumulator". You might as well try turning Lachlan Murphy into a lead ruckman - you'd have the same chances of success.

By all means blame the coaches for their failures, but what you're proposing here is next to impossible.

Yeah that's fair, he did play most of last year in the SANFL and only averaged 21 touches. Should be pushing close to 30 at that level

 

[GreyCrow]

Talk about pushing shit uphill. He's never shown any ability to accumulate possessions,

Is the Fogarty debate again?

Alternatively he has never been given the opportunity to accumulate

In 2022 he had 18 games and had multiple 20+ games
2023 he played 4 games
2024 he has been subbed off 4 times and subbed on twice

 

[skam85]

Talk about pushing shit uphill. He's never shown any ability to accumulate possessions, let alone become a "reliable accumulator". You might as well try turning Lachlan Murphy into a lead ruckman - you'd have the same chances of success.

By all means blame the coaches for their failures, but what you're proposing here is next to impossible.

Averaged 18 disposals a game in his second season, despite not being a first string mid.

Never change with your assertions

 

[Vader]

Is the Fogarty debate again?

Alternatively he has never been given the opportunity to accumulate

In 2022 he had 18 games and had multiple 20+ games
2023 he played 4 games
2024 he has been subbed off 4 times and subbed on twice

It's really not. He's played 53 AFL games, and only had 20+ disposals five times (only once in 2024). In contrast, Soligo had 5x 20+ disposal games in his first 20 games, and now has 25x 20+ disposal games from 56 AFL games played.

Fogarty may have had low disposal numbers for a long time, but the disposals he did have were often high impact. Berry's disposals are both low in number and low in impact - a deadly combination for his AFL career. Fogarty's potential was always clear, even if it took a sports psychologist to unlock it. I just don't see Berry having anywhere near the same potential - is there anyone who does?

Berry's strongest feature has always been his tackling. He's a tackling machine, who has consistently racked up some of the highest tackle counts in the AFL. Unfortunately, he's also consistently struggled to get his own hands on the pill. These are the defining characteristics of his game.

In some ways, Berry is similar to Jared Petrenko - another player who racked up high tackle counts and low disposal counts. In Petrenko's case it was because he was always 2nd to the ball, led to it by his opponent. Petrenko's inability to win enough of his own ball was his ultimate downfall - and Berry could well be following in his footsteps.

 

[FR0GGY]

Talk about pushing shit uphill. He's never shown any ability to accumulate possessions, let alone become a "reliable accumulator". You might as well try turning Lachlan Murphy into a lead ruckman - you'd have the same chances of success.

By all means blame the coaches for their failures, but what you're proposing here is next to impossible.

he did in 22

 

[Vader]

he did in 22

2022 was definitely his best season - and 4 of his 5 20+ disposal games came during that season. In 2022 he averaged 17.6 disposals per game, the only year in which he's bettered his career average of 12.9 disposals per game.

Even so, I'm still not convinced it was enough to demonstrate an "ability to accumulate disposals" - though I can see why some would argue otherwise.

I think a comparison with Soligo is very relevant. Both players are playing in the same team, with similar roles, over the same period, and have played a similar number of games. Soligo averages almost 50% more disposals per game than Berry, and has had 5x as many 20+ disposal games. I'd argue (without any stats to support the argument) that each Soligo disposal has 50% more "impact" than Berry's. What Adelaide needs is more players like Soligo, and fewer players like Berry.

 

[FR0GGY]

2022 was definitely his best season - and 4 of his 5 20+ disposal games came during that season. In 2022 he averaged 17.6 disposals per game, the only year in which he's bettered his career average of 12.9 disposals per game.

Even so, I'm still not convinced it was enough to demonstrate an "ability to accumulate disposals" - though I can see why some would argue otherwise.

I think a comparison with Soligo is very relevant. Both players are playing in the same team, with similar roles, over the same period, and have played a similar number of games. Soligo averages almost 50% more disposals per game than Berry, and has had 5x as many 20+ disposal games. I'd argue (without any stats to support the argument) that each Soligo disposal has 50% more "impact" than Berry's. What Adelaide needs is more players like Soligo, and fewer players like Berry.

From memory Berry got played off half forward a fair bit.
I think berrys issues will always be what he can do with the footy not how much can he get the footy.
He’s just not that polished

 

[Vader]

From memory Berry got played off half forward a fair bit.
I think berrys issues will always be what he can do with the footy not how much can he get the footy.
He’s just not that polished

I think it's both - he doesn't get enough of it, and he doesn't use it well when he does get it.

 

[FR0GGY]

I think it's both - he doesn't get enough of it, and he doesn't use it well when he does get it.

Currently yeah, i believe he could grow into in, danger didn’t hit the 20 disposal mark for a few years, parish the same.
No issues if we trade him though.

 

[Mutineer]

It's really not. He's played 53 AFL games, and only had 20+ disposals five times (only once in 2024). In contrast, Soligo had 5x 20+ disposal games in his first 20 games, and now has 25x 20+ disposal games from 56 AFL games played.

Fogarty may have had low disposal numbers for a long time, but the disposals he did have were often high impact. Berry's disposals are both low in number and low in impact - a deadly combination for his AFL career. Fogarty's potential was always clear, even if it took a sports psychologist to unlock it. I just don't see Berry having anywhere near the same potential - is there anyone who does?

Berry's strongest feature has always been his tackling. He's a tackling machine, who has consistently racked up some of the highest tackle counts in the AFL. Unfortunately, he's also consistently struggled to get his own hands on the pill. These are the defining characteristics of his game.

In some ways, Berry is similar to Jared Petrenko - another player who racked up high tackle counts and low disposal counts. In Petrenko's case it was because he was always 2nd to the ball, led to it by his opponent. Petrenko's inability to win enough of his own ball was his ultimate downfall - and Berry could well be following in his footsteps.

Have you looked at both players Time On Ground in that analysis. Berry for the season 51.5% T.O.G., Soligo 72.6%?

Have you also factored in that Soligo turns the ball over twice as much as Berry?

Have you factored in that Soligo has almost double the amount of clangers?

Have you factored in Soligo's Disposal efficiency is 69.1% and Berry is going at 76.6%


Have you factored in Berry has been the activated sub 5 times and subbed off twice in his 14 games compared to Soligo activated sub once, subbed off once?

Maybe it might be a good idea to drill down a whole lot more as to why the discrepancy eh?

 

[Mutineer]

Currently yeah, i believe he could grow into in, danger didn’t hit the 20 disposal mark for a few years, parish the same.
No issues if we trade him though.

He ain't ever going to be a Danger but Vader's analysis has enormous holes in it.

 

[Vader]

Currently yeah, i believe he could grow into in, danger didn’t hit the 20 disposal mark for a few years, parish the same.
No issues if we trade him though.

Dangerfield hit 20 disposals in his 5th game, compared to Berry's 21st. However, Dangerfield only had 6x 20+ disposal games in his first 53 games (to Berry's 5), so there is some relevance to the comparison. Dangerfield started racking up 20+ disposal games regularly from game 55 onwards. Does anyone realistically expect Berry to do the same?

 

[Vader]

Have you looked at both players Time On Ground in that analysis. Berry for the season 51.5% T.O.G., Soligo 72.6%?

Have you also factored in that Soligo turns the ball over twice as much as Berry?

Have you factored in that Soligo has almost double the amount of clangers?

Have you factored in Soligo's Disposal efficiency is 69.1% and Berry is going at 76.6%


Have you factored in Berry has been the activated sub 5 times and subbed off twice in his 14 games compared to Soligo activated sub once, subbed off once?

Maybe it might be a good idea to drill down a whole lot more as to why the discrepancy eh?

Why do you think there's such a discrepancy in those figures?

 

[Vader]

He ain't ever going to be a Danger but Vader's analysis has enormous holes in it.

So what you're saying is I'm right, but you think my analysis is weak...

I'll take being right.

 

[Vader]

Currently yeah, i believe he could grow into in, danger didn’t hit the 20 disposal mark for a few years, parish the same.
No issues if we trade him though.

Darcy Parish averaged 20+ disposals in his first season, and had 20+ in his first 5 games (and 10 of his first 11). I think you missed the mark with that comparison.

 

[Mutineer]

So what you're saying is I'm right, but you think my analysis is weak...

I'll take being right.

No as usual you only use the stats that suit your argument, Sam will never be a top end player like Dangerfield but he's a whole lot better than you're trying to make oit

You aren't even close to right, in fact you're way more wrong than right.

 

[Mutineer]

Why do you think there's such a discrepancy in those figures?

LOL

It's all laid out there for you take off your Berry blinders.

 

[OccamsRazorRay]

Have you looked at both players Time On Ground in that analysis. Berry for the season 51.5% T.O.G., Soligo 72.6%?

Have you also factored in that Soligo turns the ball over twice as much as Berry?

Have you factored in that Soligo has almost double the amount of clangers?

Have you factored in Soligo's Disposal efficiency is 69.1% and Berry is going at 76.6%


Have you factored in Berry has been the activated sub 5 times and subbed off twice in his 14 games compared to Soligo activated sub once, subbed off once?

Maybe it might be a good idea to drill down a whole lot more as to why the discrepancy eh?

Come on, two completely different players there..

I think it's pretty clear there's daylight in terms of talent and impact between the two.

What was clear to the eye is that the minute anyone gets even a whiff at space around Berry, they're gone, he just can't go with them. He's just far too inconsistent at this stage in defensive pressure. You look at someone like Soligo and you can see clear progression, even though he's had slightly off games. 31 pressure acts for Soligo against Hawks vs Berry's 17.................it's night and day

 

[Vader]

No as usual you only use the stats that suit your argument, Sam will never be a top end player like Dangerfield but he's a whole lot better than you're trying to make oit

You aren't even close to right, in fact you're way more wrong than right.

Whether he ends up as a low-end mid, or out of the team altogether, is a moot point. I want players who objectively make the team better, and I don't believe that Berry has the potential to do that.

 

[FR0GGY]

Darcy Parish averaged 20+ disposals in his first season, and had 20+ in his first 5 games (and 10 of his first 11). I think you missed the mark with that comparison.

The raw numbers might be different but the fact and the point I was making is, parish increased his output by 50% in his 6th year 20 disposals avg to 30
Danger in his 5th 17-27 disposals
Some players take time.

 

[Mutineer]

Come on, two completely different players there..

I think it's pretty clear there's daylight in terms of talent and impact between the two.

What was clear to the eye is that the minute anyone gets even a whiff at space around Berry, they're gone, he just can't go with them. He's just far too inconsistent at this stage in defensive pressure. You look at someone like Soligo and you can see clear progression, even though he's had slightly off games. 31 pressure acts for Soligo against Hawks vs Berry's 17.................it's night and day

I'm not saying he's as good as Soligo but he's way better than Vader is trying to make him out to be, the fact he's only averaged a tad over 50% T.O.G shoots holes through Vader's analysis for starters re comparing disposal numbers.

 

[skam85]

Berry being compared to Petrenko was not on my bingo card today

 

[Vader]

The raw numbers might be different but the fact and the point I was making is, parish increased his output by 50% in his 6th year 20 disposals avg to 30
Danger in his 5th 17-27 disposals
Some players take time.

That's a reasonable point to be making... but only if you think there is any chance of him having a "breakout" season, after which his output will significantly increase. Note that Berry's output would need to increase in both quantity and quality.

Do you honestly think that there is any reasonable likelihood of this happening for Berry?

 

[FR0GGY]

That's a reasonable point to be making... but only if you think there is any chance of him having a "breakout" season, after which his output will significantly increase. Note that Berry's output would need to increase in both quantity and quality.

Do you honestly think that there is any reasonable likelihood of this happening for Berry?

Quantity yes, quality no.
But as I said, I’m happy to move past him.
In the breakout point, how would you know, it seems as if it just comes out of nowhere (significant increase anyway) for some players

 

[Mostyn]

I feel like we probably could have developed Berry into a more reliable accumulator but have failed to do so after four years, and it's now too late

I don't think you develop an accumulator - being in the right spot seems to be more about natural footy sense.