List Mgmt. 2024 List Mismanagement and Trading

[Jeffcrowe]

Reason I mentioned small forwards and it’s a specific type of player the team’s missing it’s that quick hybrid small forward that can play closer to goal that is a natural goal kicker and not a failed/unused/undersized midfielder, the team desperately lacks natural forwards that have played forward through their junior career and aren’t just junior midfielders that can’t make it as midfielders at AFL level for various reasons.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread when talking about Rosas being available, I feel in the 7 years since Charlie Cameron left the club has never found anyone to fully replace his unique attributes he provided in the forward line that made him dangerous in front of goal but also able to panic the opposition defenders when they had the ball. Closest they’ve come is probably McAdam providing x-factor and scoreboard impact and Rankine with his freakish goals, pressure and ability to read balls off packs when he played closer to goal at the start of 2023.

Just feel Ogilvie and the recruitment team’s ‘physical and numbers heavy’ based strategy especially in recent years has meant specific more ‘tougher’ measurable stat-wise role players like your small forwards and rucks have really not been on radar and fallen by the wayside and become afterthoughts. Also James Rahilly planting the ‘old’ Geelong small forward method of not relying on them to be a main target in the 50 but instead playing them high up around stoppages then running back into the 50 has become part of Nicks’ gameplan 101 so he prefers to play extra midfielders in those roles instead, which IMO has taken away actual extra scoring options that should be available to those up the ground when actually trying to find an option forward to kick to.

It’s the way the game is going too re multiple dangerous and high pressure small forwards

Sam Mitchell is trying to be ahead of curve and is using it , giants are definitely recruiting for it with multiple players of this type including using 1st rounder on Phoenix Gothart last year out of the blue … also Daniels Bedford Jones Thomas etc

So yeah we need another one for sure
Keays ANB Pedlar and one more … Rachele plays more like a medium forward but his pressure is improving

 

[crow2crow]

Stats wise in 2024 they're comparable and Rachele is 2 years younger.

Having Rachele, Pickett and Rankine in the same team would be an insane point of difference that teams would really struggle to line up against.

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Good post. Rachele is worth more than Pickett not less. Anyway we will not be trading him and Pickett won't be coming to us anyway.

Port will have plenty of picks, after houston, bergman at least request trades home. And even Butters who must be fuming after not being given the captaincy.

 

[Firewalker]

Depends on definition of let down I guess

Borlaise definitely plays as hard and as strongly as he can despite some limited athleticism and ability , I wouldn’t be delisting him and I like him overall

I can imagine the bigfooty board turning on him pretty hard if Keane leaves and we need to rely on him more

Borlase isn’t exactly over the line in a guaranteed spot either despite what he said yesterday (another heavily reliant on Keane & Berry’s decisions), if they are active like they say they’ll be and 3 players come through the door in the trade period he might be delisted yet again to open up that rookie spot so they have the ability to put yet another player from the main list on there so they can use a 3rd draft pick on someone they are after (pick 4, young ruck e.g. Dodson if available & also Welsh)

Might come down to a battle of the heavyweights between Himmelberg or Borlase on who they prefer to keep.

 

[skam85]

Uncontracted Hugh Bond would be a chance for a demotion to the rookie list if we need to free up an additional main list spot, there's a reason he remains both unsigned and unmentioned - it's either that, occupying the rookie spot previously held by a subsequently delisted Hamill or Parnell, or they're holding him over to keep a main list spot with whatever spare change is left in the cap after the trade period is over.



Strachan is contracted until end of 2025, I don't see us paying him out

That would be a brain-dead move. If we delist Bond and commit to taking him in the RD, there is no way he makes it there. Plenty of clubs will take him as a DFA

 

[Vader]

Our club on the back foot yet again. Other clubs have made moves while we sit on our hands.

What's the rush? There's no need to hurry in delisting players. The deadline isn't until late October.

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[Pugsley]

What's the rush? There's no need to hurry in delisting players. The deadline isn't until late October.

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We always move slowly.

 

[Vader]

Hamill, Parnell , Keane are rookies . Don’t we need main list spots ?

Yes, but we can always delist players and re-draft them as rookies, effectively moving them from the senior list to the rookie list. We did this with Hamill last year.

Candidates this year would include Smith and Walker (even though he just signed a new contract).

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[jackster83]

Yes, but we can always delist players and re-draft them as rookies, effectively moving them from the senior list to the rookie list. We did this with Hamill last year.

Candidates this year would include Smith and Walker (even though he just signed a new contract).

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Schoenberg and Strachan are the most likely candidates IMO. No risk that another club would be remotely interested in either of them.

 

[Dangerousfield]

In my opinion Rachele and Pickett are similar value. Rachele is so underrated by crows fans.

Pickett goes a bit harder than Rachele though

 

[Vader]

Strachan is contracted until end of 2025, I don't see us paying him out

There's no need for a payout if we re-draft him.

The idea is that we delist, then re-draft in the rookie draft. There's no payout, provided he's still on our list when the music stops at the end of the silly season.

Other possible candidates for this plan would include Smith and Schoenberg, and maybe even Walker (even after signing him to a new contract yesterday).


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[Vader]

Speaking of list spots, if they actually do end up landing 3 trade targets to free up the required list spots it’s almost come down to because of the club’s inability to make a decent decision to cut Smith and Himmelberg now wanting to stay it will probably mean at least one of Berry or Keane now actually will need to definitely leave. Depending on that decision then one of Smith or Strachan could then be moved to the rookie list, if Keane’s the one to leave then both could be rookied to free up a 6th main list spot.

- Minimum 2 spots required for the draft (McHenry & Gollant)

- 3 Main List spots free if needed for trades (Berry/Keane, Burgess & Sloane)

- Bond to be re-signed and have a bad feeling Himmelberg will stay on as well

So minimum five main list spots available with Neale-Bullen filling one, and at most 2 rookie list spots available if Hamill’s cut & Keane leaves with Borlase most likely staying on and T.Murray filling the spot vacated by Parnell.

Also if they do only take 2 in the draft, after the obvious ‘not even Ogilvie wouldn't take a midfielder’ at pick 4(5) that only leaves the one pick to address one of the other current list holes (ruck & small forward), so heading into 2025 it’s looking like there’s still going to be some obvious issues still with the list make-up.

It's a minimum of 3 spots required for the draft.

Clubs are required to make a minimum of 3 selections in the ND, though rookie upgrades count towards the total.

It's not inconceivable that we could choose to upgrade Borlase or Turray, but I think it's highly unlikely.

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[Vader]

We always move slowly.

Again, what's the problem? As long as we get to where we need to go, by the end of the silly season.

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[Vader]

Schoenberg and Strachan are the most likely candidates IMO. No risk that another club would be remotely interested in either of them.

Fair call. Probably add Smith to the list, and remove Walker from the list of likely candidates.

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[Pugsley]

Fair call. Probably add Smith to the list, and remove Walker from the list of likely candidates.

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Smith is playing on. Hopefully spends the year in the Snaffle side.

 

[Vader]

Smith is playing on. Hopefully spends the year in the Snaffle side.

Yes, hence why he is a prime candidate for moving to the rookie list (delisting and re-drafting in the RD being the mechanism for achieving this).

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[Jeffcrowe]

We always move slowly.

The more trades and FA things will have on the go the more uncertain it is and more need to move slow

Not a race as scomo would say

 

[1970crow]

I’d definitely try to find a KPD DFA in that scenario, might have to let EH go to another team, too (which is probably fine if we’re getting Luko)

What's the point of getting games into discarded rubbish instead of potential difference maker when in a rebuild? There's zero value protecting ladder position next year, we need to use list spots to unearth future players with value. We're already carrying enough aged non-difference making depth in Crouch, Laird, Smith, ROB, Murphy, Strachan, Milera, Jones & Tex. we need to focus on getting best 10 players into the club, not more of these guys or even more depther.

 

[Mutineer]

Pickett goes a bit harder than Rachele though

Yeah and is always a candidate for suspension with his reckless playing style.

Been pretty lucky to now in that regard but with the AFL ramping up their attitude he'll want to be more careful than ever.

 

[1970crow]

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Bro just after that extra cash so he can throw it away investing on more slow nags, this is just putrid list management, Justin Reid agreeing to put such a low games trigger clause in a 32 year olds contract in the first place is just horrendous club future destroying trash and Nicks making sure he filled it before dropping him one of the most weirdest ‘scratch my back’ selfish decisions one could ever make at a football club.

Club should’ve realised their total f**k up and negotiated to get him off their books but Reid treats the salary cap as his own personal finances and refuses to not get ‘playing time’ out of the player salary money.

Crap decision, just because he hit his trigger doesn't mean we're stuck with him. Surely we're paying 5% short so we have this flexibility, like we did when we paid out Brown a year early. Surely the trigger value is low $ and easily covered. But, the vitriol directed at Reid is way overblown, he's just the executable instrument of the LM committee. Just like he was when Fagan forced him to negotiate for Gibbs with one hand tied behind his back. Roo, Kelly, Silvers, Reid, the accountant & Nix all conspire to make these idiotic decisions.

 

[Floating Doughnut]

Yeah and is always a candidate for suspension with his reckless playing style.

Been pretty lucky to now in that regard but with the AFL ramping up their attitude he'll want to be more careful than ever.

Missing the first 3 next year , and was lucky with one other this year.

 

[1970crow]

Not sure why so many people are excited about Keane leaving

Keane leaving = Borlaise playing a large number of games next year as our key backs seem quite injury prone and he’s next man in

Careful what you wish for

Is anyone actually keen though, isn't it more that he's been reported to want to go back to Vic for a while, so it's just pragmatism to be discussing trade value. Murray, Butts and Worrell is enough as first choice with Borlase as backup. We also have Burgess still on the list who was apparently a defender early on and Curtin who could play the loosest of the 3 tall roles. How many clubs play 3 key tall defenders?

 

[1970crow]

Got a feeling we’ll be trading out or dropping a contracted player to rookie list if we get everyone linked to us

Tex and Smith should both go to the rookie list.

 

[1970crow]

Probably highly likely Smith will still get delisted, he’ll just likely now be moved to the rookie list in one of the spots Hamill & Parnell vacate.

Both of whom would provide more value to us if called upon in 2025 than Smith.

 

[bigman]

Feels like this is the critical off season for us (and a career defining one for Reid).

There are going to be a lot of players looking to move, and some will be huge trades that might need 3rd parties to get involved.

For us adding Cumming as a free agent would be excellent business. He fills a clear need.
I suspect ANB will be late 3rd or even a future 3rd round pick. I can't see Melbourne being stressed about this one.

Then we need to keep pick 4 as a priority.

Then we have Lukosious. I suspect Port won't be able to afford the salary. Despite it being a salary dump and if he was going to Geelong GC would be gifting them with extra picks, GC are going to play hard ball here and want something good in return. This will test Reid. We will see what sort of an operator he really is.

We clearly need both a support ruck and a developing ruck. Dodson would fill one of those roles, then we also need another ready to play strong body ruck. Unfortunately, Strachan just isn't at AFL level. We need to scour the other leagues and back ups at other clubs to see who we might be able to attract.

Tyler Welsh will come in and I suspect will be around the second round mark. He will be a handy pick up and will develop into a good forward. Hopefully he can build his engine.

Get all of that done and we have a good start. If we could then add in some opportunistic trades to better position ourselves for the future, Reid will have done a good job. Hopefully there is another player or two that suddenly want to move that we might be able to jump on. I'd still be speaking with Shai Bolton's managers about joining forces with Rankine as a duo that rotate between F50 and midfield. I know he's likely to go to WA, but I'd very much be asking the question. And then asking again. And then again.

List wise, I think there are some pretty clear moves.

Sloane, Parnell, Hamill, McHenry & Burgess will be delisted.

Gollant we will try to trade and then probably delist.

Himmelberg will either leave as a free agent or be delisted.

Smith should be farewelled. Hopefully he hasn't met those triggers.

Tex is a tough one. I'm inclined to keep him in an advisory role - especially for Welsh. Could be move him off list and use as a coach of some description. We absolutely should only have ONE of Smith/Tex on the list next year at most. I would keep Tex, play him about 60% of games and play Welsh in the games Tex doesn't play. Basically ease Tex out and ease Welsh in.

Borlase will depend on Keane. If Keane requests a trade, then I'd trade him and sign Borlase as support. He's fine as a back up. If Keane stays, then Borlase is not required.

Berry I suspect will ask for a trade, and I'd be happy to do so. If we get a 2nd rounder (even a late one) for him, you would be happy with that. He doesn't have the hands required at AFL level.

Bond we should sign and keep. He has a role and does it well.

I would also be very happy to let Laird know he can consider his options. Hopefully he understands and looks elsewhere.

I would also be willing to listen to offers for Sholl. He's made a jump and shown he can be a good winger, but I don't think he has much more of a ceiling and is replaceable. Now is the time to trade him if offers come in (sell high). He's also very much replaceable.

Lot's of movement, lots of options. Critical year.

Enjoyable read DJ, agree on many points.

ANB isn’t a sexy pick up but it’s a good one, quality team man and our number of good small forwards is strikingly thin, once you get past Rachele and Rankine it’s really just Keays and Pedlar (and Murphy…), and Pedlar needs a huge wake up call to get back on track which is no given. ANB alongside Keays will set standards on the track and on field.

Cumming would also be a great acquisition despite his injury woes. His 21/22 seasons were very good and he will allow the likes of nank and hinge to play their natural games a bit more. Aside from sholl we are light on genuine wingmen especially with some height and pace. Hopefully he comes to us.

Lukosius I’m neither here nor there. I always think it’s a good idea to get SA boys back to the club (the more the better too as it will further put clubs off drafting high end SA talent) and obviously he’s laden with class, but he picks and chooses with his efforts and the asking price will likely be egregious. I’m content with trading a future first assuming we get enough collateral to get another top 20 pick in this years draft (likely via Keane/berry). Along with welsh it would bring in another three young talents from a strong draft and essentially wrap up our rebuild. I don’t think it would be selling the future. Pick 4 on the other hand must not be touched - at most a slide to 6 assuming we believe Draper will be off the table.

I really hope we keep Keane as he is a play maker. Yes his defensive positioning causes problems at times but he also solves them with his willingness to intercept as well as take risks coming out of defence. Murray and butts may be better defensively but neither take the risky option by foot (nor we want them too). We would miss him substantially despite his faults. If he does leave we must force Collingwood to pay up, as he is contracted and there is no homesickness connection to Melbourne. Must be a top 25 pick (which would give us two high end second rounders, possibly enough to combine and move up the order to grab Dodson). Otherwise hold him to his contract.

Agree on Berry. If his ball take matched his tackling he would be a very good player. Unfortunately mids that fumble are liabilities. I do think he has some growth in his game - he’s not the plodder some make him out to be - but he’s a proven fumbler and not a massive accumulator. Mids needs to be stars and I can’t see him getting to that level. If he stays theres probably still enough to work with l, but for both parties a trade may be the better option. (Edit: already outdated opinion, he’s staying)

I’ve basically given up on dragon as an AFL player, he just can’t maintain the rage and becomes a liability out there. He’s been around for eight years and still runs out of gas early in games nor does he have a power forward physique. As a ruckman he is far better than Burgess so we may have to retain him purely for that and our poor ruck stocks however.

I would consider keeping Hamill as he had his most consistent year and is one of the few with genuine pace in our squad. Yes he is limited but there’s no guarantee bond makes it long term as a small defender either. Also well liked at the club. It may come down to what cumming decides (and borlase on Keane). Gollant is probably dependent on Luko, but he’s another who I suspect hasn’t applied himself to the fullest with his preparation. He has talent but his tank is poor and clearly affects his repeat efforts and ability to consistently compete at afl level. I expected more from him by now.

Big pre seasons ahead for some. Taylor got a good taste of it this year but also would have got a reality check on how hard AFL players need to work. I think the penny has dropped however and am optimistic he will make himself undroppable this pre season. He may be our most talented midfielder. Hopefully he decides to stay, I just hope he gets enough love at the club.

Edwards’ season was almost a carbon copy of his draft year. Slow start but a red hot finish. His accumulation still needs to improve but he makes good decisions both in traffic and transition and runs like the wind for a well built 192cm lad. His kicking technique isn’t exactly textbook but he’s got serious power in that boot and often hits the scoreboard which is rare for our mids.

Ryan deserved a debut that he never got but he has the opportunity to nail a spot given smith is clearly on the outer. He makes the odd mistake and needs to bulk up a bit as can get found out against bigger bodies, but he’s a natural run and carry player which is something we have little of and is a real competitor. Great selection despite being off broadway prior to the draft.

I’m surprised neither have been offered contract extensions yet. Yes they’re country boys but they’re still victorians. Same goes for bond who showed enough to get a further two years.

I am curious as to what happens with curtins knee. Since that injury his movement has always looked hampered, some days worse than others. Even when walking. Will he get surgery or is this something he’s had for a while? Surely we would have done our due diligence?

 

[Viva la Mattner]

Sam Berry re-signs , 2 more years