List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[stavro#4]

You don't need a million draft picks to win a flag. Melbourne are the last club that has had access to masses of draft picks, it's looking like an outlier. Collingwood and Geelong won the last 2 flags. Both are sides with a huge amount of old players with incredible cohesion and experience. Both have had very few high draft picks in the last decade.

Richmond were literally where we were sitting just off the good sides finishing ninth every year but building cohesion and experience.

Interesting conversation I heard on SEN recently, didn't hear who the guy was but he was saying that sides are choosing to try to overpay now for FAs and experienced trades because when Tasmania comes in you want a good solid core to stay up. Sides just off the pack won't be able to use drafting to move forward and thin lists will struggle to make up ground.

Mediocrity for 15 years isn't going to be fixed by selling good players to get picks. We've done that and got nothing from it except more mediocrity. When they say this draft is even it means guys taken at 15 won't be that different from guys taken at 5. It doesn't have a top 10 that are seriously better than the guys later in the draft. To me it sounds like a foolhardy plan.

To me we are mediocre now because we have a really thin group between 22 and 26 yo, because we failed to draft 4 to 8 years ago. Culling the better players from that age group is exactly how you make more holes down the track. In 4 years we won't have Hill, wood, Sinclair, Wilkie, Howard, Marshall, Steele, Ross, Membrey, Webster etc. They'll either have finished up or at the end.

Our group that will be our older core are Cordy, Hunter Clark, King, Battle, Higgins, Stocker, Dow, Paton, Bonner, Sharman, Allison and Hall. King, Battle and Higgins are the only ones that look like above average talent and Sharman is pushing towards it.

Why do you constantly twist the truth.

The pies landed a generational talent via FS in Nick Daicos. They had a good base similar to us. They added a game changing talent.

The cats landed arguably 2 top 10 players in the league in Cameron and Dangerfield. They have also been able to stockpile picks behind generational talents going back to the mid 2000s.

We have neither the generational talent of a Daicos or landing top 10 players.

It has to be the draft and it has to be pouring draft picks in.

 

[Sully111]

Get those picks right you may just set your midfield up for a decade
Treading water hoping to pick up discarded bargains with 1 top lock at a time leaves us in no man’s land for another decade
You have to pick well - we’ve brought in one of the best to do it is let him and judge him on outcome

I hear you, and hopefully you're right.

Regardless.... Judging from Lyon's narrative, King isn't going anywhere.

 

[Yawkey way]

They also had arguably the greatest player in the modern era.

A midfielder who ALWAYS showed up on the big stage. Won every award etc.

Just a tiny little detail that needs to be added

Also traded hard.

 

[_Maximus_12]

If Battle leaves, then the pick attached to his departure goes a long way to aiding us in adding high end talent to the list to compliment and enhance our young core.
It is possible that the right pick can be impactful from day one.
We do need to be willing to let go of some talent to bring some genuine potential through the door though, as doing what we’ve done for near 15 years won’t move the needle on our ability to contend.

 

[gringo2011]

Which will be 30 years in total...we've already been consigned to irrelevancy for 15 years.

Out of choice. We went into austerity while paying down RSEA park and other debts so didn't employ football department staff. That stuff takes years to filter through and damage done 6+ years ago starts to show up now. Clubs like Collingwood and Geelong still have players from when we were playing in grand finals. All that link to culture, continuity and leadership are hard to replace.

They are the guys that hand over the club to a new generation and direct the kids in expectations and standards.

 

[stavro#4]

Also traded hard.

They did. But you are trading from a position of strength when you are landing the absolute top tier talent via draft or free agency.

The argument to hold Pat and keep going on this hamster wheel is so very flawed.

The talent we have gets us into a finals campaign it doesn’t make us a contender. We have again missed the talent in free agency that may.

1 first round pick is unlikely to change our fortunes. It may. But surely you sell high and keep building.

The errors of the past are very much that we thought we were ahead of what we are and alot of assumptions the talent we did have would keep rising.

I’ve been a huge backer of this club on this board and I’m openly saying that we don’t have enough to compete. Go back to the draft - especially one as deep as this one. Pour the picks in and set ourselves up.

We cannot afford to finish bottom 4 when Tassie hits the draft and our first pick is p8. The pain has to be this year and next and then we have to rise and we have to throw the cheque book at everything next year

 

[Yawkey way]

I’m really struggling with the contradictions on here. I believe we don’t have a top 8 list let alone a top 4 list capable of contending for a flag.

This seems to be a widely held view yet I’m seeing many of the posters who hold that view also absolutely against trading anyone of any worth. If these players haven’t been good enough, won’t be good enough, won’t be part of the next st Kilda team to contend then why can’t they be traded.

It seems to me that some would much rather finish tenth every year than cop a couple of hard years to move forward. Imo we need as much young talent as we can get before Tassie enters the comp. I’m happy to trade anyone and I do mean anyone if it gets us into contention for years to come.

Everyone was laughing at north, begging bowl, relocate them, fold etc. The north supporters certainly have had a hard run but now the team is another draft a trade or two from rocketing up the ladder who’s laughing now ?.

 

[The Punter]

I mean, we all realise that a significant section of the membership will be considering not renewing if we sign Tarryn Thomas

26

Tarryn Thomas

Age

24

Ht

190cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.0

3star

K

5.3

2star

HB

5.7

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

3.3

5star

CL

0.9

3star

D

7.8

2star

K

4.0

1star

HB

3.8

3star

M

1.3

1star

T

3.2

4star

CL

0.2

2star

D

12.8

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

0.4

3star

?

Oliver is a massive risk, but not so much a reputational risk. Thomas will have long-time members turning their backs. That's how it will be, regardless of whether one thinks it's proof the world has gone too "woke".

 

[gringo2011]

Why do you constantly twist the truth.

The pies landed a generational talent via FS in Nick Daicos. They had a good base similar to us. They added a game changing talent.

The cats landed arguably 2 top 10 players in the league in Cameron and Dangerfield. They have also been able to stockpile picks behind generational talents going back to the mid 2000s.

We have neither the generational talent of a Daicos or landing top 10 players.

It has to be the draft and it has to be pouring draft picks in.

Twist the truth, right-o Flaps.

Naicos is a gun but for absolute impact he's like an upmarket Sinclair. He's a generational talent because he's doing things at an age that most don't achieve until late in their careers if ever. No doubt we need high end talent but you don't start again hoping to find one. They are so rare that you just have to hope that you draft one in.

Phillipou or Wilson or a kid we take next in the draft might end up a generational talent. They are something that you can plan around.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m really struggling with the contradictions on here. I believe we don’t have a top 8 list let alone a top 4 list capable of contending for a flag.

This seems to be a widely held view yet I’m seeing many of the posters who hold that view also absolutely against trading anyone of any worth. If these players haven’t been good enough, won’t be good enough, won’t be part of the next st Kilda team to contend then why can’t they be traded.

It seems to me that some would much rather finish tenth every year than cop a couple of hard years to move forward. Imo we need as much young talent as we can get before Tassie enters the comp. I’m happy to trade anyone and I do mean anyone if it gets us into contention for years to come.

Everyone was laughing at north, begging bowl, relocate them, fold etc. The north supporters certainly have had a hard run but now the team is another draft a trade or two from rocketing up the ladder who’s laughing now ?.

Because trading players out to hope for a gun at the draft is just gambling. Stockpiling talent is how you win flags not one in one out and hope. If we wait until the under 21's are 28 the club will struggle to stay afloat. So many Saints fans I know are the end of their patience. Bottom out rebuilds are harder to sell every year and with fluid player movement, kids won't hang around if they get better offers from a successful club.

 

[beside the seaside]

They also had arguably the greatest player in the modern era.

A midfielder who ALWAYS showed up on the big stage. Won every award etc.

Just a tiny little detail that needs to be added

Pou....

 

[gringo2011]

I mean, we all realise that a significant section of the membership will be considering not renewing if we sign Tarryn Thomas?

Oliver is a massive risk, but not so much a reputational risk. Thomas will have long-time members turning their backs. That's how it will be, regardless of whether one thinks it's proof the world has gone too "woke".

Oliver is just as hard to sell IMO. He's going to be a huge impediment to our future if he fails. His contract is extraordinarily long and large and his issues are serious.

 

[Yawkey way]

Out of choice. We went into austerity while paying down RSEA park and other debts so didn't employ football department staff. That stuff takes years to filter through and damage done 6+ years ago starts to show up now. Clubs like Collingwood and Geelong still have players from when we were playing in grand finals. All that link to culture, continuity and leadership are hard to replace.

They are the guys that hand over the club to a new generation and direct the kids in expectations and standards.

Gringo forget about the past for a moment and just look at the future. Explain to me how we get into contention from here with one first rounder a year, Tassie on the horizon and not trading any of our older top self players. You must know that in a year or two those same players that would bring a first this year won’t be worth even a second. Imo we go hard now or get used to going to the footy for a laugh and the occasional win.

I no longer give a rats about who got us into this spot I’m totally focused on using every trick in the bag to get out of it.

 

[gringo2011]

I hear you, and hopefully you're right.

Regardless.... Judging from Lyon's narrative, King isn't going anywhere.

Signing him up just gives us currency in a trade more than anything though. It means we have can let him go knowing that he's going to get maximum return. Contracts guarantee nothing these days. It's likely that we won't trade him because he's seen as a marquee player and as a lifelong fan he is a good story though.

 

[gringo2011]

If Battle leaves, then the pick attached to his departure goes a long way to aiding us in adding high end talent to the list to compliment and enhance our young core.
It is possible that the right pick can be impactful from day one.
We do need to be willing to let go of some talent to bring some genuine potential through the door though, as doing what we’ve done for near 15 years won’t move the needle on our ability to contend.

I love how anyone thinks that we've been doing what we are doing now for 15 years. We had a recruiter who wasn't any good and let him blow picks with no accountability and we didn't develop players well or manage the list properly.

We had a shit coach who was no good and kept him regardless. We then tried to trade out of a hole after blowing 2 rebuilds with the same crew and sold out the future.

 

[gubby88]

Twist the truth, right-o Flaps.

Naicos is a gun but for absolute impact he's like an upmarket Sinclair. He's a generational talent because he's doing things at an age that most don't achieve until late in their careers if ever. No doubt we need high end talent but you don't start again hoping to find one. They are so rare that you just have to hope that you draft one in.

Phillipou or Wilson or a kid we take next in the draft might end up a generational talent. They are something that you can plan around.

phillipou could very well be our dusty. this kid has big game player written all over him.

he's starting to hurt with his disposal and kicks big goals

On SM-A156E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Silkie]

Can someone please tell me we're not signing Thomas. Would rather be shit for another 10 years than pay a bloke like him

 

[The Punter]

Oliver is just as hard to sell IMO. He's going to be a huge impediment to our future if he fails. His contract is extraordinarily long and large and his issues are serious.

Everything after your first sentence is true, but his issues relate to self-harm really. Let's not underestimate how Thomas' rap sheet is going to play with a part of our support base who will see this as a bridge too far. It would not represent the usual St Kilda incompetence most of us have baked in to our tolerance already.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

GWS and Suns have had an absolute smorgasbord of top draft picks for years with little success.
Need that combo of top young talent with older experience and then cohesive team play for the icing.
A half decent coaching group wouldn’t hurt either.

 

[Sully111]

I’m really struggling with the contradictions on here. I believe we don’t have a top 8 list let alone a top 4 list capable of contending for a flag.

This seems to be a widely held view yet I’m seeing many of the posters who hold that view also absolutely against trading anyone of any worth. If these players haven’t been good enough, won’t be good enough, won’t be part of the next st Kilda team to contend then why can’t they be traded.

It seems to me that some would much rather finish tenth every year than cop a couple of hard years to move forward. Imo we need as much young talent as we can get before Tassie enters the comp. I’m happy to trade anyone and I do mean anyone if it gets us into contention for years to come.

Everyone was laughing at north, begging bowl, relocate them, fold etc. The north supporters certainly have had a hard run but now the team is another draft a trade or two from rocketing up the ladder who’s laughing now ?.

For me, there's a bit more to it.

I still think it's hard to get a proper take on the list until the coaching improves.

As far as I'm concerned Owens should have trained and played as a mid all season. It's been a completely wasted year as far as he's concerned. I wouldn't have cared if he spent some time at Sandy this year. I mean it's not like it would have hurt our ladder position.

Sharman has shown enough in the past (last year's final for example) to back him in as a starting forward. Instead he's been thrown all over the place and sometimes dropped.

They're just two examples. Our forward structure has been dreadful. We've played horrible footy for large parts of the year. That's not all on the players.

I think Ross and co have had an absolutely shithouse year to be honest. Really poor.

If we're looking to build for the future, we need to have our current players play and train in roles where they're most suited. Then we bring in other players to fill void.... and we do that with a screw-the-ladder mindset. But we haven't done that. Once again we've been dogs chasing our tails all year and then we just lump the blame on the players when it doesn't work out. The same players that torched the bombers two weeks ago.

To your point though, there's no doubt we need to bring in better quality... and yes, we need to do what it takes. But until we look at the whole picture, we're still going to be lost.

If Battle goes, so be it. I really don't see Ross moving King on. Steele? It would depend what we got for him. But I can certainly see why some are hesitant to trade one of our only decent mids to improve the midfield.

At the end of the day, how far away are we? I don't bloody know mate. I won't know until the whole club, including our coaches, get their shit together.

 

[gringo2011]

Gringo forget about the past for a moment and just look at the future. Explain to me how we get into contention from here with one first rounder a year, Tassie on the horizon and not trading any of our older top self players. You must know that in a year or two those same players that would bring a first this year won’t be worth even a second. Imo we go hard now or get used to going to the footy for a laugh and the occasional win.

I no longer give a rats about who got us into this spot I’m totally focused on using every trick in the bag to get out of it.

By getting the picks right. You need to be nailing drafts, staying competitive and trying to bring in good players from other pathways. Guys like LDU aren't coming if we bottom out. We need to keep pushing forward. We have a good older core and a good younger core. Ideally keep fattening the mid career guys and drafting well.

The dickheads got us here by lazy planning and stupid gambles. Doing more of that isn't a path just because it appeals to you. If they decide that we aren't challenging with this list then you'd be better to trade Marshall or one of the guys closer to the end than a guy in his mid 20s. Go get Goober in the preseason draft and replace Marshall on the cheap while adding a couple of high picks.

To me we need to go now. Our core list is way above anything that Ratts or Richo had. It could easily push top 8 and if you get a good injury run we could push top 4. Getting a foot in the door gives you a ticket in the lottery. We look a lot like the Dogs side that won a flag in profile.

Waiting for a goldilocks list is fantasy.

 

[Captain Paddy]

The club failed to employ good staff or a footy department and kept changing plans on the run.

Isn't your main point in this thread that we need to sack Ross if he goes backwards next year?

 

[Captain Paddy]

Naicos is a gun but for absolute impact he's like an upmarket Sinclair. He's a generational talent because he's doing things at an age that most don't achieve until late in their careers if ever. No doubt we need high end talent but you don't start again hoping to find one. They are so rare that you just have to hope that you draft one in.

Isn't this the point of potentially trying to stockpile pick. So that you can try and find/draft one lol

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Do we even really need King?
We have Hammer and Sharmy and Members and Keeler and Ro.
We play better without him and we need mids desperately.
I love Max but either bring in Bing to play with him or trade him out.

 

[Captain Paddy]

Because trading players out to hope for a gun at the draft is just gambling. Stockpiling talent is how you win flags not one in one out and hope. If we wait until the under 21's are 28 the club will struggle to stay afloat. So many Saints fans I know are the end of their patience. Bottom out rebuilds are harder to sell every year and with fluid player movement, kids won't hang around if they get better offers from a successful club.

You're literally debating yourself

• You can't find generational talent like Naicos, you have to draft it
• Don't trade out talent for picks because the picks won't be as good as the talent we trade out
• Our list isn't good enough and we need to get better before tassie
• Stay mediocre & don't trade out any talent because if we do we will be shit again