List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[BrutThough]

Do we even really need King?
We have Hammer and Sharmy and Members and Keeler and Ro.
We play better without him and we need mids desperately.
I love Max but either bring in Bing to play with him or trade him out.

Yes. Max is a better player with a higher ceiling and better career output than anyone you've listed.

The supporter base cant complain about lack of A grade talent if they are also advocating to trade King because we have a bunch of mediocre other options.

 

[Yawkey way]

By getting the picks right. You need to be nailing drafts, staying competitive and trying to bring in good players from other pathways. Guys like LDU aren't coming if we bottom out. We need to keep pushing forward. We have a good older core and a good younger core. Ideally keep fattening the mid career guys and drafting well.

The dickheads got us here by lazy planning and stupid gambles. Doing more of that isn't a path just because it appeals to you. If they decide that we aren't challenging with this list then you'd be better to trade Marshall or one of the guys closer to the end than a guy in his mid 20s. Go get Goober in the preseason draft and replace Marshall on the cheap while adding a couple of high picks.

To me we need to go now. Our core list is way above anything that Ratts or Richo had. It could easily push top 8 and if you get a good injury run we could push top 4. Getting a foot in the door gives you a ticket in the lottery. We look a lot like the Dogs side that won a flag in profile.

Waiting for a goldilocks list is fantasy.

Romo is the guy to go for me but I still think we need to retain a core to be competitive so as not to stunt the younger players development. Having said that if we can do that i don’t care if that’s 4 wins or 8 for a couple of years. I think we need to let go of the idea we’re somehow sneaking into the 8 next year. We’re not imo and it wouldn’t matter a one bit if we did if we can’t go on with it the following year.

I do believe we can moneyball enough experience in to paper over the cracks and I couldn’t care less if those players only give us one or two years. It’s all about the core that will carry us through the next ten years and into contention for top 4 within 3 or 4 years. If we’re not there at that point then it’s just more of what we’ve endured for over a decade.

Anyway I’m going to try and just nod and shrug this trade period, the club will do what they want.

 

[Yawkey way]

Yes. Max is a better player with a higher ceiling and better career output than anyone you've listed.

The supporter base cant complain about lack of A grade talent if they are also advocating to trade King because we have a bunch of mediocre other options.

He won’t be traded but we need to stop casting ming as a superstar, he’s not and may never be anything more than a good player who’s very good on his day.

The days of guys kicking 100 goals a year are gone we need more options and a greater spread of goal kickers. The players in that set up need to compliment each other, apply pressure, lay tackles, bring the ball to the ground.

Ming hasn’t had a great run at it with injuries but he has a lot he needs to work on imo.

 

[botts]

Do we even really need King?
We have Hammer and Sharmy and Members and Keeler and Ro.
We play better without him and we need mids desperately.
I love Max but either bring in Bing to play with him or trade him out.

Sorry but I just think anyone that thinks trading king doesn’t know much about football. We need to stop even spit balling the idea. It’s never gonna happen.

 

[akaifu]

GWS and Suns have had an absolute smorgasbord of top draft picks for years with little success.
Need that combo of top young talent with older experience and then cohesive team play for the icing.
A half decent coaching group wouldn’t hurt either.

Which is exactly why it’s the perfect time to go hard at the draft. By the time this year’s crop begins maturing in 3-4 years, Marshall Sinc Steele etc will be that “older experience” while the core of Nas Owens Windy Pou etc carry the bulk of the work

 

[_Maximus_12]

I love how anyone thinks that we've been doing what we are doing now for 15 years. We had a recruiter who wasn't any good and let him blow picks with no accountability and we didn't develop players well or manage the list properly.

We had a shit coach who was no good and kept him regardless. We then tried to trade out of a hole after blowing 2 rebuilds with the same crew and sold out the future.

We have been a middling side at best since 2012. Tell me one player we’ve traded high since then?

Taking one first round pick, and adding off cuts from other clubs hasn’t worked for us. The only sustained period we’ve had was built through the draft.

Also, you’ve banged on a fair bit thing year about Lyon needing accountability, and not being good enough. Make up your mind.

 

[akaifu]

Do we even really need King?
We have Hammer and Sharmy and Members and Keeler and Ro.
We play better without him and we need mids desperately.
I love Max but either bring in Bing to play with him or trade him out.

We do

This might not be your view, but so many people who argue that ‘letting Battle go will ruin the club’ also argue that we need to let our most talented player leave at a career-low value. Make it make sense…

 

[Joffaboy]

They also had arguably the greatest player in the modern era.

A midfielder who ALWAYS showed up on the big stage. Won every award etc.

Just a tiny little detail that needs to be added

Plus a generational backman, plus Cotchin, a great player in any era then they went and got Lynch while being premiers, but hey, we should emulate them by recruiting Paddy Dow and one first round dp while the two flag favourites get the best players in the draft.
Don't bother with reality, we just have to 'believe' harder.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Sorry but I just think anyone that thinks trading king doesn’t know much about football. We need to stop even spit balling the idea. It’s never gonna happen.

If only he would learn to lead and defend.

 

[gringo2011]

GWS and Suns have had an absolute smorgasbord of top draft picks for years with little success.
Need that combo of top young talent with older experience and then cohesive team play for the icing.
A half decent coaching group wouldn’t hurt either.

Our stats look competitive on the Champion Data list. We have an elite backline and running HBs/wings. We need to bolster the inside-mid brigade and probably a back up or upgrade specialist small forward and continuity from guys like King, Henry, Dow etc. Even if Dow is only depth we need mids available to cover injury.

We are frustrating because we aren't far off. A few kids step up next year and good injury run and we are around the mark of 4th to 8th spot. I'd be accelerating not rebuilding. Finals next year and try to challenge 2026 to 2028 before the older crew finish up.

 

[gringo2011]

Isn't your main point in this thread that we need to sack Ross if he goes backwards next year?

Nah, just saying that he should be under the pump. Probably should go before he wrecks the list if he doesn't want to move forward though. We aren't his retirement package.

I think he's as good an option as any but if he doesn't want success soon we need to cut him before he sends us back to the bottom. I like Ross but I'm not in the cult. He's just staff and if he doesn't perform he's held to exactly the same standards as anyone else. His past doesn't buy him time.

 

[akaifu]

Our stats look competitive on the Champion Data list. We have an elite backline and running HBs/wings. We need to bolster the inside-mid brigade and probably a back up or upgrade specialist small forward and continuity from guys like King, Henry, Dow etc. Even if Dow is only depth we need mids available to cover injury.

We are frustrating because we aren't far off. A few kids step up next year and good injury run and we are around the mark of 4th to 8th spot. I'd be accelerating not rebuilding. Finals next year and try to challenge 2026 to 2028 before the older crew finish up.

How do you plan on achieving finals next year without bringing anyone in? You can’t just say “oh we had injuries this year” because every team has injuries. Every team will improve, including Hawthorn, Norf, Collingwood who are outside the 8 atm

Same question for challenging 2026 to 2028, how are we going to climb that far without making any change except MAYBE one big free agent IF we are lucky?

 

[Remboy]

Do we even really need King?

Depends. Are you talking about Max or David?

 

[gringo2011]

Romo is the guy to go for me but I still think we need to retain a core to be competitive so as not to stunt the younger players development. Having said that if we can do that i don’t care if that’s 4 wins or 8 for a couple of years. I think we need to let go of the idea we’re somehow sneaking into the 8 next year. We’re not imo and it wouldn’t matter a one bit if we did if we can’t go on with it the following year.

I do believe we can moneyball enough experience in to paper over the cracks and I couldn’t care less if those players only give us one or two years. It’s all about the core that will carry us through the next ten years and into contention for top 4 within 3 or 4 years. If we’re not there at that point then it’s just more of what we’ve endured for over a decade.

Anyway I’m going to try and just nod and shrug this trade period, the club will do what they want.

I have its about three good players off being a top 4 side. Guys like Owens, Phillipou, Windhager, Sharman, Henry, Hammer, Nas etc are starting to push up. We had a huge hit to nearly every midfielder and an extremely unsettled forward line.

Injury needs to be addressed but any side that takes a huge hit to one area will drop back. We are a better list than a few that are inside the 8.

Injury hit Collingwood in Bucks final year and as soon as they got players back they had played kids into form and found players then got depth back a couple of years later they have a flag.

Throwing out everything hoping to catch GC and even North in list quality is going to be a long wait. If we stuff this up we will be hard rebuilding right as Tassie come in. It seems like plenty are wanting to go back to Pelican's plan at nearly the identical moment.

I'd be chasing Macrae and Parker types to bolster the mids while drafting hard and trying to fill the depth holes and making ourselves look pretty to try to land a player like LDU with our war chest.

I reckon we could easily hit top 4 and then who knows. There isn't a dynasty side in the comp right now and Tassie will make it harder for one to come on. Sides like GC and North if they can step up might have enough of a pool to at some point and Brisbane have a lot of free hits though.

 

[Joffaboy]

Sorry but I just think anyone that thinks trading king doesn’t know much about football. We need to stop even spit balling the idea. It’s never gonna happen.

I don't think you understand the situation we are facing.
1. Nobody here doubts that King is a good AFL footballer. No one has said trade him, he is s.hit. it is because he is one of the few players we have that has any draft currency and in my view can be covered by Coops, Sharman and if we brought in a decent ruckman Rohan.
2. We are being forced into these scenarios because the AFL will not allow us to get the best players in the draft with the ludicrous position that the two flag favourites get top 5 players for free and before we get a chance to pick. Carlton, a top four team will get the Camporeales for free, the Northern states will get their NGA's for free, North destroy their list and get multiple free picks.
3. We don't do this now, Tassie takes all the good kids in 2026 and 2027, probably lures a developed Arie back home as well. If we are stuck at 9th on the ladder when that happens we are mediocre for another decade.
4. We are forced to be desperate and look at TT and Oliver, talented but almost on the rubbish tip because we are forced by Kane and Dillon to be homeless beggars rummaging through the skips out the back of the restaurant while their favourite teams dine in luxury and ON THE HOUSE.

We have to be bold. Ask yourself, do you want to win a flag? Do you really want to win a flag?
Or do you want to be the AFL's Washington Generals, going back to the humiliation of the early 80's Saints?
Because they are literally the only two choices we have.
And if it is the second one we may as well fold, OR put in a late submission to relocate to Tassie as their team.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[The Punter]

Collingwood didn't have to draft Daicos. They had unfettered access to him, there was just a nominal cost involved.

If they had to draft Daicos, then really they would have had to trade into that position where they could draft him.

And that's the ever-loving problem.

 

[gringo2011]

How do you plan on achieving finals next year without bringing anyone in? You can’t just say “oh we had injuries this year” because every team has injuries. Every team will improve, including Hawthorn, Norf, Collingwood who are outside the 8 atm

Same question for challenging 2026 to 2028, how are we going to climb that far without making any change except MAYBE one big free agent IF we are lucky?

If we do it's because players already in our under 22 bracket come on and we draft well. I'd be chasing some depth as well for now. We need mids mostly. Macrae and Parker, Lyons anyone who can bolster us. If we sell everyone off what do we end up with. say we get Lalor and Draper. When do we start to challenge?

 

[The Punter]

I don't think you understand the situation we are facing.
1. Nobody here doubts that King is a good AFL footballer. No one has said trade him, he is s.hit. it is because he is one of the few players we have that has any draft currency and in my view can be covered by Coops, Sharman and if we brought in a decent ruckman Rohan.
2. We are being forced into these scenarios because the AFL will not allow us to get the best players in the draft with the ludicrous position that the two flag favourites get top 5 players for free and before we get a chance to pick. Carlton, a top four team will get the Camporeales for free, the Northern states will get their NGA's for free, North destroy their list and get multiple free picks.
3. We don't do this now, Tassie takes all the good kids in 2026 and 2027, probably lures a developed Arie back home as well. If we are stuck at 9th on the ladder when that happens we are mediocre for another decade.
4. We are forced to be desperate and look at TT and Oliver, talented but almost on the rubbish tip because we are forced by Kane and Dillon to be homeless beggars rummaging through the skips out the back of the restaurant while their favourite teams dine in luxury and ON THE HOUSE.

We have to be bold. Ask yourself, do you want to win a flag? Do you really want to win a flag?
Or do you want to be the AFL's Washington Generals, going back to the humiliation of the early 80's Saints?
Because they are literally the only two choices we have.
And if it is the second one we may as well fold, OR put in a late submission to relocate to Tassie as their team.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

A point 5 following on from point 4

"When our President calls out the AFL for this inequity, the AFL media come not for the AFL but for our President."

https://www.theroar.com.au/2024/07/05/father-sons-and-academies-pervert-the-drafts-objective-so-why-are-st-kilda-made-the-scapegoat-by-the-afl-media/

 

[akaifu]

I’ve come to accept that the group of Row, Steele, Sinclair, Wood, Hill etc. won’t be the ones leading our next premiership charge. Instead, they’ll be the 2023 Pendles/Sidebottom - the experienced mature heads to guide the youngsters

Pou, Nas, Owens, Wilson, Windy, Henry, King, Caminiti are the core, so we need to build around THEM, not the older brigade. That means; do whatever it takes to sensibly bring in more draft capital to keep layering the waves of talent at each age group, let Battle go, bring in a Peatling or a Butts or a Harry Edwards and ensure that we don’t have another massive gap in the 24-27 age group in 3-4 years

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

If Battle leaves, then the pick attached to his departure goes a long way to aiding us in adding high end talent to the list to compliment and enhance our young core.
It is possible that the right pick can be impactful from day one.
We do need to be willing to let go of some talent to bring some genuine potential through the door though, as doing what we’ve done for near 15 years won’t move the needle on our ability to contend.

Totally agree...

Yes some top end kids still take 3-4 years to come on (LDU for example)... but more and more are impacting their team immediately. We just need to hope like hell that 2024 1st round pick/s can have a Sheezel/Daicos/Wardlaw like effect.

Two picks in the top 7 would be super exciting... especially when it's a logjam at the pointy end talent wise.

 

[gringo2011]

Collingwood didn't have to draft Daicos. They had unfettered access to him, there was just a nominal cost involved.

If they had to draft Daicos, then really they would have had to trade into that position where they could draft him.

And that's the ever-loving problem.

This is the thing though. The system isn't fair. You have two choices, give up or work harder and get more creative. The sides that bottom out hard have rarely been the best sides. Hawks are probably the exception when they dropped down to get priority picks but Richmond had been shit around that time and drafted badly.

Your list management and development staff are the most important in a rebuilding side. GWS and Carlton wasted years of top picks at drafts before getting it right and then seemed to find talent everywhere from worse positions on the ladder. Also need to look at age balance. experience, leadership and system to see how far they can go.

Start up clubs lack experience, leadership and culture. That means they struggle to maximise talent and kids develop slower.

I'd say Lyon has a good system and his game plan should stand up in finals even if a little dated. We have a good older crew to lead culture but probably lack some assertive leader types. Then we just ned to fill some holes in the list and hope that out talent identification and development are up to standard.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Depends. Are you talking about Max or David?

I’ve actually come to enjoy David’s comments this year.

 

[akaifu]

If we do it's because players already in our under 22 bracket come on and we draft well. I'd be chasing some depth as well for now. We need mids mostly. Macrae and Parker, Lyons anyone who can bolster us. If we sell everyone off what do we end up with. say we get Lalor and Draper. When do we start to challenge?

We’re not selling everyone off, we’re just letting a high-quality role player go for way over his worth in the perfect draft to bolster a gaping hole in our list

My view is that Lalor and Draper should not be expected to be key parts of our next premiership charge, but neither would Battle - an Arie or Keeler or Caminiti could improve to just as good as he is within the next 2 years as the entire team continues its development

The draftees would act as a 2009 Selwood type where the kids are good role players with the potential to do a Owens/Nas and break out in their 2nd year

Your scenario is to go all in on the next 3 years. Make or break. Gringo, I can absolutely guarantee you, if we don’t achieve anything during this period (which is highly likely considering Hawthorn, Brisbane, Carlton etc), we are finished for 10 years. We would have missed 3 quality drafts, then gone back to the drawing board WHILE Tassie completely compromise the draft, leaving us with nothing to rebuild with

 

[gringo2011]

They did. But you are trading from a position of strength when you are landing the absolute top tier talent via draft or free agency.

The argument to hold Pat and keep going on this hamster wheel is so very flawed.

The talent we have gets us into a finals campaign it doesn’t make us a contender. We have again missed the talent in free agency that may.

1 first round pick is unlikely to change our fortunes. It may. But surely you sell high and keep building.

The errors of the past are very much that we thought we were ahead of what we are and alot of assumptions the talent we did have would keep rising.

I’ve been a huge backer of this club on this board and I’m openly saying that we don’t have enough to compete. Go back to the draft - especially one as deep as this one. Pour the picks in and set ourselves up.

We cannot afford to finish bottom 4 when Tassie hits the draft and our first pick is p8. The pain has to be this year and next and then we have to rise and we have to throw the cheque book at everything next year

Then go and lose all the older crew and be exactly where we are now in another 4 years still trying to catch up. You wanted to top up when we had no kids and all the older guys were going. Now we have youth you want to drop back. I think if we aren't moving forward we need a huge broom through the place. This board has been absolutely terrible and probably need to get some fresh ideas in.

 

[Joffaboy]

A point 5 following on from point 4

"When our President calls out the AFL for this inequity, the AFL media come not for the AFL but for our President."

https://www.theroar.com.au/2024/07/05/father-sons-and-academies-pervert-the-drafts-objective-so-why-are-st-kilda-made-the-scapegoat-by-the-afl-media/

Good article punter

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app