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We've been crying out since day 1 for Voss to run more players through the middle, maybe Austin and co will have finally forced the issue
yep, we've lost some depth but they were also 'known players' - talent, abilities and limitations were well known and the mix is clearly off. This is a calculated effort to bring some change to the list at the risk of our depth being exposed through injury next year. Payoff is of course, as you say a new mix. Pick 3, billy wilson, Hollands boys, docherty even C durdin can make our midfield less predictable
 
Let me take you back to 2014, the single worst draft/trade/recruitment period by any club in the history of the league.

Traded out Pick 7 & 19 for Kristian Jaksch and Mark Whiley

Pick 19 - Blaine Boekhurst
Pick 28 - Dillon Vojo-Rainbow
Pick 60 - Clem Smith
Pick 63 - Jayden Foster
PSD - Jason Tutt
Rookie draft - Billy Gowers, Brad Walsh, Tom Fields, Fraser Russell
Delisted free agent - Matthew Dick

Only positive was Liam Jones for Pick 46.
2014 was a very interesting draft. Outside of De Goey and Petracca no absolute elite players. Heeney, Steele and Moore father son / academy players but otherwise a handful of good but not great options.

At Pick #7 would we have looked at Peter Wright, Liam Duggan, Corey Ellis, Nakia Cockatoo, Lachie Weller. We might have got one best 22 player out of that but it wasn't guaranteed.

Touk Miller and Braydney Maynard being there between 19-30 hurts, imagine swapping Blaine and the Rainbow for Maynard and Miller.

But then there were also a bunch of nothing picks there Hugh Goddard, Laverde, Dan McKenize, Daniel Neilson, Lukas Webb, Tom Lamb etc.

It was a really poor draft but we definitely managed to miss the dartboard on every throw.
 
Partly because FS and academy boys always tend to get undervalued because every other club focuses on gettable targets. Will Graham last year is a fine example. Nick Daicos another.
Nick Daicos was pretty much touted as a top 5 draft pick that year anyway, regardless of F/S (and pick 1 according to some folks). So if the conventional thinking is that the Campo bros are 2nd and 3rd round chances, regardless of F/S, then there's a lot of pressure on them to achieve great things with a moneyball tactic like that (despite pick 3, who is going to have a mountain of pressure and expectation to perform) - moreso given that we've traded Kennedy and Carroll has been delisted... The commenter has a fair point imo.
 

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Ollie will likely become a half back who spends a bit of time on the wing. Like Docherty can. In fact they both probably pair up well as players who rotate together.

I'm hoping we have a really good look at our rotations next seasons and adjust players minutes. I'd like to see some of the rotation players get more minutes in the midfield.

Interesting with Ollie that he trained a lot last pre season in midfield and looked good.

The move to HB I really liked. I like when we try things and don't pigeon hole players. Flexibility and ability to catch the opposition off guard can make a big difference
 
Interesting with Ollie that he trained a lot last pre season in midfield and looked good.

The move to HB I really liked. I like when we try things and don't pigeon hole players. Flexibility and ability to catch the opposition off guard can make a big difference
It sounds like we are happy to try things in the preseason but when it comes to the crunch and the main season starts that all goes away. It's a bit like when we brought players in and tried things at the end of last season and the end of this season and that went well, when finals came we cracked under pressure and put those things away.

I have criticised Voss of this before. He was a tough and courageous player but a timid coach IMO. He keeps going back to what he sees as safe rather than backing players in and taking risks.

End of 2023 season we had Dow in the side, not killing it but playing well and giving us something different and a bit more pace. Fisher at half back getting 25 possessions and giving us rebound. Finals came and we choked and dumped them for "safer options" which failed. 2024 we brought in a few young players who went exceptionally well in the last few games. Binns, Lord and Moir really were good but come finals time we dropped them for safe options and again, those options failed.

Voss is precious and fearful in regards who he plays in the middle. In 2022 we would throw Durdin in there for great result and that has not happened since early 2022. We have had many options to rotate through the middle and Voss has constantly gone with low rotations instead of doing that. IMO that's a part of our constant burn out and injury toll. We don't rotate enough through there when we should. Even Fogarty should be going through there when he plays.

I keep hearing about all sorts of players being trialled in the middle and doing well in the preseason like Holland and Kemp but come game day you simple never see it.

Is this an issue with us? I think so. I am hoping this changes in 2024. The only way forward is to trust our youth and play them. We simply have to rotate more through our midfield as well.
 
Ollie will eventually play in the middle, not be stuck at HB
Will be an awesome list piece going forward. Think plenty on here will be surprised what he offers with maturity. Too many undersell his skills which are blunted by his current role and focus. He has excellent game sense which will become more apparent when his role switches from running machine with defence first as his focus.
 
I do like Olly off HB. Adds mobility and even if he doesn't have a Houston like peg on him, he does appear to look for the attacking option.

HB has become such a vital role now. A good one is like an extra mid. No one knows where he will end up but I have no doubt he will just keep getting better and better. Another pre season will really help him
 

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Let me take you back to 2014, the single worst draft/trade/recruitment period by any club in the history of the league.

Traded out Pick 7 & 19 for Kristian Jaksch and Mark Whiley

Pick 19 - Blaine Boekhurst
Pick 28 - Dillon Vojo-Rainbow
Pick 60 - Clem Smith
Pick 63 - Jayden Foster
PSD - Jason Tutt
Rookie draft - Billy Gowers, Brad Walsh, Tom Fields, Fraser Russell
Delisted free agent - Matthew Dick

Only positive was Liam Jones for Pick 46.
The 2014 draft was a trainwreck for a lot of clubs: 17 of the top 30 picks are no longer playing (I'm counting Durdin at this point), including 6 of the top 10, and 3* of the top 5.

Worst draft in the last 20 years, you'd think, and that's saying something.

I don’t get the “Ollie to HB”.

I see a top flight HB having a damaging, penetrating kick & the body to float back & take a contested mark/impact the play thru strength/size - eg Houston/Stewart etc he also hasn’t got the burst of a running half back.

He definitely has positive attributes, but I think we are selling ourselves very short if he’s a contender at HB.

100% if I was an opposition coach, I would be working on isolating him and running the attack right through him
His kicking became a lot cleaner and his top speed went up after he got to relax a bit more playing from HB. I think the kid is like his brother: his speed/endurance mix suffers too much when deployed on the wing, and his strength isn't quite there when on-ball.

The latter attribute might shift for Ollie over the years and we can revisit, but for now we're crying out for someone who can sweep and rebound to give Saad some relief, and he's the perfect candidate. Way happier about our defensive mix with him in there instead of both Boyd and Newman.

Wilson is another candidate, but I like his talents a lot more for the wing and resting HF. Big upgrade on what we've been trying to do with Cottrell, albeit without the same endurance base.

I want Boyd to lose maybe 5 kgs and get some spring back in his step, he was a far more interesting prospect 6 months before we drafted him, arguably had less foot/ankle concerns too.
 
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Oh it gets far worse...you appear to have ommited the part where we also gave up Waite and Garlett for nothing, who went to play a further 130+ games for 250+ goals combined.
remind me what we got for Mitch Robinson too..

i know he lied to the club but... he was what 26 or so?, 100 games in to what would be about a 250 game career.

ouch
 
The really weird thing about the 2014 draft weas that there were 7 players picked by other teams that ended up playing at Carlton.

They were,

Jarrod Pickett (4)
Caleb Marchbank (6)
Hugh Goddard (21)
Mitch McGovern (43)
Marc Pittonet (50)
Oscar McDonald (53)
Josh DeLuca (68)

geez, Pickett had some wheels
 
It sounds like we are happy to try things in the preseason but when it comes to the crunch and the main season starts that all goes away. It's a bit like when we brought players in and tried things at the end of last season and the end of this season and that went well, when finals came we cracked under pressure and put those things away.

I have criticised Voss of this before. He was a tough and courageous player but a timid coach IMO. He keeps going back to what he sees as safe rather than backing players in and taking risks.

End of 2023 season we had Dow in the side, not killing it but playing well and giving us something different and a bit more pace. Fisher at half back getting 25 possessions and giving us rebound. Finals came and we choked and dumped them for "safer options" which failed. 2024 we brought in a few young players who went exceptionally well in the last few games. Binns, Lord and Moir really were good but come finals time we dropped them for safe options and again, those options failed.

Voss is precious and fearful in regards who he plays in the middle. In 2022 we would throw Durdin in there for great result and that has not happened since early 2022. We have had many options to rotate through the middle and Voss has constantly gone with low rotations instead of doing that. IMO that's a part of our constant burn out and injury toll. We don't rotate enough through there when we should. Even Fogarty should be going through there when he plays.

I keep hearing about all sorts of players being trialled in the middle and doing well in the preseason like Holland and Kemp but come game day you simple never see it.

Is this an issue with us? I think so. I am hoping this changes in 2024. The only way forward is to trust our youth and play them. We simply have to rotate more through our midfield as well.
Sorry but what were these failed decisions that Voss “choked” in 2023? If memory serves me correctly we won 2 finals and performed at a high level.

Criticise his back end of this year all you like but to suggest that dropping Fisher and Dow in 2023 was a mistake is revisionist history
 
It sounds like we are happy to try things in the preseason but when it comes to the crunch and the main season starts that all goes away. It's a bit like when we brought players in and tried things at the end of last season and the end of this season and that went well, when finals came we cracked under pressure and put those things away.

I have criticised Voss of this before. He was a tough and courageous player but a timid coach IMO. He keeps going back to what he sees as safe rather than backing players in and taking risks.

End of 2023 season we had Dow in the side, not killing it but playing well and giving us something different and a bit more pace. Fisher at half back getting 25 possessions and giving us rebound. Finals came and we choked and dumped them for "safer options" which failed. 2024 we brought in a few young players who went exceptionally well in the last few games. Binns, Lord and Moir really were good but come finals time we dropped them for safe options and again, those options failed.

Voss is precious and fearful in regards who he plays in the middle. In 2022 we would throw Durdin in there for great result and that has not happened since early 2022. We have had many options to rotate through the middle and Voss has constantly gone with low rotations instead of doing that. IMO that's a part of our constant burn out and injury toll. We don't rotate enough through there when we should. Even Fogarty should be going through there when he plays.

I keep hearing about all sorts of players being trialled in the middle and doing well in the preseason like Holland and Kemp but come game day you simple never see it.

Is this an issue with us? I think so. I am hoping this changes in 2024. The only way forward is to trust our youth and play them. We simply have to rotate more through our midfield as well.

Not meaning to pile on here - and it's all counterfactual now - but this is just surreal.

Fisher is the absolute opposite of a big game player and doesn't belong within a million light years of a finals side, and Dow was only ever injury cover for Cerra and Walsh. Even with injury and suspension these two guys were nowhere near it.
 
Will be an awesome list piece going forward. Think plenty on here will be surprised what he offers with maturity. Too many undersell his skills which are blunted by his current role and focus. He has excellent game sense which will become more apparent when his role switches from running machine with defence first as his focus.
He's a gutsy little bugger as well.....never seen him shirk a contest against bigger, harder bodies.

I'm the first to put my hand up and say I was disappointed when we took him in the draft, but he's been ultra impressive, and will get better and better as he matures. Had a lean patch this year, but that's not uncommon for 2nd year draftees.

I think we got a goodun' in Ollie.....and he brought his big bro in for the ride :cool:
 
Not meaning to pile on here - and it's all counterfactual now - but this is just surreal.

Fisher is the absolute opposite of a big game player and doesn't belong within a million light years of a finals side, and Dow was only ever injury cover for Cerra and Walsh. Even with injury and suspension these two guys were nowhere near it.
We chose a totally cooked version of Cincotta who was horrible and Kennedy as sub who was horrible. Dropped fit, form players who brought much needed pace and run for other fringe players who were not fit and brought no run at all.

Fisher and Dow had performed well in a big game just prior to finals against Melbourne, a game that was practically a final so the not big game players goes out the window.

Voss did exactly the same thing this year. Went back to his favorites despite slowing the team down and them not having fitness or form. The only difference was we got smashed instead of scraping out two wins. Wins which came mostly because both opposition kicked horribly for goal.


Sorry but what were these failed decisions that Voss “choked” in 2023? If memory serves me correctly we won 2 finals and performed at a high level.

Criticise his back end of this year all you like but to suggest that dropping Fisher and Dow in 2023 was a mistake is revisionist history
A lot of people blinded by winning a couple of finals. If 2023 was successful then the bar most certainly is low. We would have been marginally better with more pace. My opinion won't change on that. The last two seasons, every time we inject even a little pace into the team it improves significantly. We picked the slowest side we could for finals, struggled through two finals, won with a lot of luck involved and were outpaced in the prelim. Melbourne and/or Sydney don't have a mare in front of goal in 2023 and there would be more people agreeing with me.

Voss is proving that when it comes to finals, he falls back to his 'safe' options. Rather than sticking with players who bring improvement to the side and have good performances under their belt he has proven last year and this year that he falls back to his safe options. I would definitely call that choking. That and being afraid to play the young players all season. It wreaks of fear poor confidence.

The fact that Voss has this mantra of "finals are different" wreaks of fear. The idea that finals are different is BS. They are different for the first 10 minutes because everyone goes super hard. Fundamentals are the same. Game is the same.

I don't trust Voss to select the team well each week and I certainly don't trust him to get it right come finals. He's too reliant on favorites/players he rates at the expense of team balance and form/fitness. He's proven this over and over again. It's a weakness in his coaching.

I've gone over it before, the selections throughout the season and particularly in this and last years finals series being poor. They took the pace out of the team. They took away the run off half back and in the middle. Cuningham is the other selection which we got wrong in 2023. He was probably our best defensive half forward and we got smashed off the half back line. In the end it's up to the coach to pick a side that is fit, has form and has a really good team balance and he's failed to do that because he can't stop himself picking his favorites.
 

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