peternorth
Moderator
- May 6, 2005
- 129,878
- 77,839
- AFL Club
- Richmond
- Moderator
- #2,226
Will play Sunday
-
AFLW 2024 - Round 9 - Indigenous Round - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Player Watch #5 Jack Ross- Re-Signed until 2026
- Thread starter Michaels
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Harrison Bergeron
Club Legend
- Banned
- #2,227
He kicked 5 in 2007 but had a shocker in front of goal in the 2008 loss. Kicked a couple in '09 & missed '11 with injury.
domin8
Club Legend
Careful you’ll enter the umpires book
this is correct, we did have structure in 2017 and chaos (forward of the centre) at the same time, our players were grossly underrated as a whole.
You don't give blokes games because has sons .
Agree to disagree regarding foot soldiers. 2013-2015 we were pretty raw, so not sure that counts for too much, if anything as Hardwick has admitted, he over coached in 2016 and I could see that creeping back into his coaching the last season or so. Was happy to see him go, with full honours, as I think he was stale with us and perhaps even starting to loose the players.
Full marks to McQualter for getting us up and running, yet to see if he has any new ideas but he is coaching pretty well right now.
Thought the head on wall pic was addressed to me, otherwise wouldn't have butted in. All good, now let's see what happens with team selection, there will be some unlucky players this week with mending list.
THIS...
- Oct 5, 2004
- 13,152
- 13,811
- AFL Club
- Richmond
- Other Teams
- Richmond
He’s caretaking well.
Keeping the game plan with minor tweaks.
Bringing in new players, that earnt the opportunity, and also necessity.
But who knows what his game plan is if he had a pre-season to implement with the team. I don’t think continuing with the current one is the way to go.
_RT_
Community Leader
- Sep 17, 2006
- 47,167
- 91,834
- AFL Club
- Richmond
- Other Teams
- Furies Premiers 2010
- Moderator
- #2,236
All good mate. Happy to have a debate where opposing views are respected and discussed.
McQualter has made some tweaks that has freed up some of the foot soldiers types to become more impactful, Ross in particular is one who has flourished.
Collingwood concede the lowest points against this season by a distance, and they are just the 4th highest scoring team. That is not the result of all out attack. They commit fully when attacking but their game is based very heavily on defensive structures and pressure.
Let's look at one of their players to illustrate this.
McCreery selected in every game with a player like Ginnivan who scores goals competing for his position, and mostly playing VFL. McCreery averages 10 disposals, 1.1 goals + assists, 3.3 score involvements, 3.9 tackles and 16.3 pressure acts.
To give an idea of how that compares, Jason Castagna in 2018 averaged 10.4 disposals(his lowest full season) 1.8 goals + assists, 4.9 score involvements, 2.9 tackles, 14.5 pressure acts.
Hoskin-Elliott another being selected every game he is fit for Collingwood who is running at very low disposals, scoreboard impact etc, but is keeping decent players out of the team. He will be playing a very specific role in their structure.
Bobby Hill similar story.
Last edited:
You quote stats a lot, but they tell only some of the story.
As I said, average forward half in particular, they do structure up well in defence but besides Moore there are no stars back there, and they do attack pretty hard from their backline.
Castagna was a good player at Richmond and it was only when we started to wain that his place was questioned. He played very well in our Premiership years but got found out when he had to get his possessions further up the ground. His lack of skill caught up with him. McCreeny is a similar pacy/dynamic/pressure player, but has very good skills. Similar stats yes.
Collingwood's midfield is full of stars, they are the reason they are going so well. If you can hold the Daicos boys, Pendelbury, Adams, DeGoey, Sidebottom, Crisp then you beat them, not so easy though. It will be interesting come finals who hits form at the right time, a very important aspect of winning a Premiership.
- Apr 27, 2014
- 32,462
- 63,517
- AFL Club
- Richmond
- Other Teams
- The Fanbois Farters
His only relevant stat was this:
Collingwood concede the lowest points against this season by a distance, and they are just the 4th highest scoring team.
You only look at bottom six players statistical output to see how they're performing their roles. THE cream as you say is what does the damage and bring them into the game. We had ours in Dusty, JR8,Lynch,Cotchin, Sheds Prestia etc and remove these guys and we have nothing. It's obvious nowadays with salary caps you can't have 22 stars so you have to groom a Markov or Castagna .
Mate when you are submitting Collingwood as a team that is all out attack and that has a system that is "not safety or about structures" this is clearly wrong. I could merely tell you that you were wrong, or I could show you with statistics.
Part of what you wrote in your post was correct, but that part is completely incorrect. Their team adheres to very strict structures as much as any other team. Their overall for and against scoring, and their role players are proof of that. They have players missing selection who would certainly get more possessions or score more goals than some of these role players I mentioned, but this would be to the detriment of the team's performance because they would not supply the same level of pressure or maintain their shape as well.
If you are saying teams don't put their stars into those roles, then yes that is correct. They are more or less doing what we are doing in that regard, they are just doing it better right now. The one thing I believe that they have that is stronger than our teams is they have 6 excellent kicks taking most of their kicks between the arcs, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Daicos, Daicos, DeGoey and Crisp. And they have two very good extractors handballing it to those 6 players about 26 times per match in Mitchell and Adams. Our great teams had much better defenders and key forwards and an unmatchable mid-forward, but we didn't have ball users between the arcs of that calibre or depth. But for those players to be as effective as they are requires their team to adhere to highly disciplined structures.
And this is the point _RT_ was making that you were responding to. Football has changed dramatically. Players who get the ball a lot are only any good if they do more damage than the opponent's players who get the ball a lot. But to be a competitive team these days you need some players playing roles where they don't get the ball a lot. Collingwood are not a counter argument to that, they are proof of it.
- May 23, 2017
- 1,655
- 7,960
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Richmond adhered to strict structures in 2016 and it was a disaster. Hardwick had a revelation over summer and came back with a completely new attitude, let the players follow their instincts, back themselves and enjoy their football. That is not my opinion, that has been stated numerous times.
I have mates who barrack for Collingwood who absolutely love McRae because after years of Buckley's strict team structures, they have a team now that plays on instinct and flair, the players and supporters are loving it and are becoming obnoxious as hell, and good on them.
Of course there are structures, but their attitude as much as anything is why they are going so well. It is greatly helped because their midfielders are such great users of the ball. Pendelbury, Daicosx2, Sidebottom, DeGoey rarely turn a ball over. When they do, you can hurt them as one of the football analysis programs showed the other week, 'because they play such attacking football from the back half they leave themselves open.' They showed the footage to show this. So perhaps I am not clearly wrong.
No doubt you will come back at me with some stats, but I'd rather use my own interpretation of what I have seen and heard.
I am guessing this part of the conversation arose from people debating the rights and wrongs of Jack Ross being relegated to sub v Swans whilst players who get the ball less, and appear to use it less well, like McIntosh, were retained in the starting 22. It is, imo, a thing worthy of making the effort to understand.
Well call it a draw.I am guessing this part of the conversation arose from people debating the rights and wrongs of Jack Ross being relegated to sub v Swans whilst players who get the ball less, and appear to use it less well, like McIntosh, were retained in the starting 22. It is, imo, a thing worthy of making the effort to understand.
This is for all you TT lovers out there.
What we are discussing here is why some players who score less supercoach points might be chosen ahead of players who score more supercoach points in the same role, right?
Richmond does that, and we certainly shifted in that direction between 2016 and 2017 where say Lloyd is replaced by Castagna for eg. And Collingwood does exactly the same thing, playing the likes of McCreery over Ginnivan. And I am betting adherence to structures is a large part of the reasoning behind why McIntosh or Pickett were not chosen to be sub v Swans and Ross was. It would be difficult to make sense of the move otherwise. You would have to believe the selectors prefer to select inferior older players who have played in Premierships over superior younger players who have not played in Premierships, or something like that. But then you would need to explain Ryan and Miller being repeatedly chosen ahead of Soldo, the likes of Ross and Sonsie and Maurice being selected ahead of Castagna late last season including finals, just to cite 2 fairly recent examples.
A lot of people probably have not noticed, but there has been a very noticeable shift to older players across the competition in recent years. In 2022, Geelong were the first team ever to win a flag with a team older than average 28 years, and they were almost 29 on average from memory. This weekend Geelong and current Premiership favourite Collingwood have selected teams older than 28 years on average. The average age of an AFL player has risen by a year from just over 24 to well above 25 during the last 10 years. 30+ year olds have more or less doubled in that time and 18-19 year olds have halved. Why might that be happening do you think? I will give you one likely partial explanation. The older players have greater knowledge of and better discipline to ever more sophisticated roles and structures.
This years hot flag favourite Collingwood will this week field just 5 players under the age of 25.
J Daicos 24
Murphy, Quaynor 23
McCreery 22
N Daicos 20
Last years dominant Premier Geelong will play just 4 players under the age of 24.
So is shifting older role players out of the team in preference for youngsters really the way to go?
Last edited:
Taranto is a better runner, stronger tackler and surprise surprise, better goal kicker than most of those main Collingwood field kicking experts. Their general ball use is superior to Taranto's but this does not mean they are all better players than him. They are not.
