NT Alice Springs: 2024 Curfew

[Gethelred]

If someone that receives franking credits doesn't pay a speeding fine, do they deduct it from their franking credits?

Rule for thee, but not for me.

 

[Kram]

Then, there's other problems. There were three alcohol stores at my centre, with one of them just beside an exit. Just next to the door was the cheap bourbon and whisky, and teenagers would frequently duck in, grab a bottle, and run out. I asked the manager there why the store was laid out the way it was - after I had to clean a dropped bottle of Johnny Red off the floor - and he told me they had no say in where things were or how the store was designed; it was all done at head office.

At BWS here they just keep all the spirits in a shelf but locked behind glass, pretty simple solution I would have thought. Only a pretty minor inconvenience for staff and customers for them to get what you want.

 

[Chief]

There were three alcohol stores at my centre, with one of them just beside an exit. Just next to the door was the cheap bourbon and whisky, and teenagers would frequently duck in, grab a bottle, and run out. I asked the manager there why the store was laid out the way it was - after I had to clean a dropped bottle of Johnny Red off the floor - and he told me they had no say in where things were or how the store was designed; it was all done at head office.

Reminds me of an article (book chapter?) about shoe manufacturers putting their sneakers near doors at shops in some areas. They wanted the "urban" kids to steal and wear them, then the "not urban" kids would see them and buy them.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Down $1m of stock at retail price or wholesale cost?

What was their profit for that time period?

Don't know
Don't know
Don't know

 

[Chief]

I cant believe how ******* lazy people have gotten with this click and collect s**t.

Always massively overweight people leaning on their boot at the shops near me waiting for Woolies kids to bring their groceries out.

I just see mums with kids. Don't know where you live.

 

[Chief]

The store is only a couple of years old, they conducted a stocktake after the first 8 months and were down just shy of $1m.

Sorry if it's already been answered - is there an article on this.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Sorry if it's already been answered - is there an article on this.

No, the information is from my daughters. Store management posted the result on the lunch room noticeboard.

There's almost weekly initiatives to stem the flow but none of them work.

While I'm waiting to pick the girl's up, I'll often duck in and buy something and will talk to managers while I wait. They have Loss Prevention Officers working in there reasonably often but it's like the boy with his finger in the dyke. I suggest to them that since they mostly know who a lot of the culprits are they should hire a couple of security guards, proper burly ones that stand the doors at pubs, give them a list and then bar those people from entering. They can go to the Woollies or ALDI stores down the road.

 

[Gethelred]

No, the information is from my daughters. Store management posted the result on the lunch room noticeboard.

There's almost weekly initiatives to stem the flow but none of them work.

While I'm waiting to pick the girl's up, I'll often duck in and buy something and will talk to managers while I wait. They have Loss Prevention Officers working in there reasonably often but it's like the boy with his finger in the dyke. I suggest to them that since they mostly know who a lot of the culprits are they should hire a couple of security guards, proper burly ones that stand the doors at pubs, give them a list and then bar those people from entering. They can go to the Woollies or ALDI stores down the road.

1. Security guards are not like that anymore. What you're thinking of here are bouncers, and a supermarket doesn't want a bouncer anywhere near the front of their store because that bouncer would scare families away and - if they cause a scene - will get them in shit with the local police, the local teenage population (because if they turn down a teenager, that teenager then turns up with their mother and father and the manager of the store has to deal with them potentially loudly and in public explaining why that teenager wasn't allowed into Coles; or, alternatively, a group of more than 20 teenagers at the same time not listening and not giving a ****; the guards can't know how old they are before they act, are you telling me you think them using force on a minor would work wonders for the store's perceived safety?) and/or the centre management of the centre provided it's not owned by Coles/Woolies.

2. Do you have an idea how much those guards would cost and the budget a store manager has to play with at a standard Coles/Woolies to be able to say unequivocally what they should do and have it be realistic?

3. Loss prevention is less confrontational than it used to be. I've spoken to multiple guards who used to be in loss prevention, and they were much more in your face than things are now. It could be that businesses have worked out how dangerous having guards approaching potentially desperate people is (coupled with how expensive it is to pay for insurance on it) as well as how potentially bad publicity it would be to have their store in the media for racial profiling and/or intimidating school children.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

1. Security guards are not like that anymore. What you're thinking of here are bouncers, and a supermarket doesn't want a bouncer anywhere near the front of their store because that bouncer would scare families away and - if they cause a scene - will get them in s**t with the local police, the local teenage population (because if they turn down a teenager, that teenager then turns up with their mother and father and the manager of the store has to deal with them potentially loudly and in public explaining why that teenager wasn't allowed into Coles; or, alternatively, a group of more than 20 teenagers at the same time not listening and not giving a *; the guards can't know how old they are before they act, are you telling me you think them using force on a minor would work wonders for the store's perceived safety?) and/or the centre management of the centre provided it's not owned by Coles/Woolies.

2. Do you have an idea how much those guards would cost and the budget a store manager has to play with at a standard Coles/Woolies to be able to say unequivocally what they should do and have it be realistic?

3. Loss prevention is less confrontational than it used to be. I've spoken to multiple guards who used to be in loss prevention, and they were much more in your face than things are now. It could be that businesses have worked out how dangerous having guards approaching potentially desperate people is (coupled with how expensive it is to pay for insurance on it) as well as how potentially bad publicity it would be to have their store in the media for racial profiling and/or intimidating school children.

FMD, that's close to the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever read.

Bouncers have security licences, if they lose their licence, they can't work.

Having someone keeping the scumbags out would make me feel safer to shop in peace.

Stores in metropolitan areas are already doing this, refusing people entry

The store where my daughters work is a standalone store, you don't have all the dregs hanging around like you do in shopping centres.

The cost of this would be cheaper than what they're currently losing to theft, head office to foot the bill.

Guards don't have to approach people for stealing because they're not letting them in, in the first place. The overwhelming majority of thieves at the store are white and they definitely aren't schoolchildren.

 

[Gethelred]

FMD, that's close to the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever read.

Note: 'I disagree with this' does not make something written any less true. Sorry to disappoint you, old fella.

Bouncers have security licences, if they lose their licence, they can't work.

... and?

The job requirements are distinct from each other these days. You wanted the big burly blokes; the big burly blokes are bouncers these days. Most security guards are from overseas, work 2-3 different jobs to pay for their lives, and their views of their job are 'get through the shift doing as little as I can without getting fired', because if they lose their position they already have two other security contracts elsewhere.

This is one of the consequences of labour hire. You've got a shit job that doesn't pay well, people who have the connections to get into a position that's desperate for people and a limited employee pool; what you end up with are people who are there only for the paycheck, whose interest is in survival rather than competence.

Your choices are to be general and get someone like this or to be specific and pay much, much more per guard.

Having someone keeping the scumbags out would make me feel safer to shop in peace.

Stores in metropolitan areas are already doing this, refusing people entry

... yeah, no they're not. Not across the board.

The store where my daughters work is a standalone store, you don't have all the dregs hanging around like you do in shopping centres.

The cost of this would be cheaper than what they're currently losing to theft, head office to foot the bill.

Lol. You don't know shit about how much security costs.

Guards don't have to approach people for stealing because they're not letting them in, in the first place.

... which is the problem: you're the store manager. You're now going to have to deal with complaints from the community about the guard being heavy handed when not letting someone in, about profiling because that's what policies like this accomplish.

Every time the guard refuses to let someone in, that person has the opportunity to make a scene at the front of your store. You think having an adult screaming at them is going to make people feel safe?

The overwhelming majority of thieves at the store are white and they definitely aren't schoolchildren.

... and this is better, how?

A desperate adult is more likely to carry a knife or some means of getting you to leave them alone. There's no money for the business in confronting them.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Note: 'I disagree with this' does not make something written any less true. Sorry to disappoint you, old fella.

... and?

The job requirements are distinct from each other these days. You wanted the big burly blokes; the big burly blokes are bouncers these days. Most security guards are from overseas, work 2-3 different jobs to pay for their lives, and their views of their job are 'get through the shift doing as little as I can without getting fired', because if they lose their position they already have two other security contracts elsewhere.

This is one of the consequences of labour hire. You've got a s**t job that doesn't pay well, people who have the connections to get into a position that's desperate for people and a limited employee pool; what you end up with are people who are there only for the paycheck, whose interest is in survival rather than competence.

Your choices are to be general and get someone like this or to be specific and pay much, much more per guard.

... yeah, no they're not. Not across the board.

Lol. You don't know s**t about how much security costs.

... which is the problem: you're the store manager. You're now going to have to deal with complaints from the community about the guard being heavy handed when not letting someone in, about profiling because that's what policies like this accomplish.

Every time the guard refuses to let someone in, that person has the opportunity to make a scene at the front of your store. You think having an adult screaming at them is going to make people feel safe?

... and this is better, how?

A desperate adult is more likely to carry a knife or some means of getting you to leave them alone. There's no money for the business in confronting them.

...and?

You're the one that said if bouncers cause a scene they'll have to deal with the police, I'm saying that the guards need a licence to work, they're not going to put that licence at risk by causing trouble.

The security guards from India working 2 or 3 jobs, won't cut it. If someone tells you no, you need to believe it.

I post that stores are already employing guards to bar entry to people and you counter with no they're not and then follow up immediately with, not across the board, Make up you're mind old boy, you're all over the shop, they either are or they aren't.

The bouncers aren't profiling anyone, they're acting on intelligence provided to them by store staff and loss prevention officers and barring entry to those who management don't want in their store.

The thieves already create scenes and abuse staff and smash stuff, better not to let them in.

There's less money for the business letting them in.

You need to experience life more.

 

[Gethelred]

...and?

You're the one that said if bouncers cause a scene they'll have to deal with the police, I'm saying that the guards need a licence to work, they're not going to put that licence at risk by causing trouble.

The security guards from India working 2 or 3 jobs, won't cut it. If someone tells you no, you need to believe it.

Der. That's why it's not happening.

Two scenes in one day will result in the manager approaching the security agency and telling them to send someone else. The policy they'll settle on would be to have them stand there and look intimidating whilst doing nothing; in short, the same thing having a staff member beside the store exit would accomplish, only costing around $200 an hour (wages, contract, insurance) more.

I post that stores are already employing guards to bar entry to people and you counter with no they're not and then follow up immediately with, not across the board, Make up you're mind old boy, you're all over the shop, they either are or they aren't.

I had a choice: I could outright call bullshit, as I've never seen security at a stand alone woolies or a coles; I could take your experience as fact and assume, even though I haven't seen it before, it's happened to you.

Seeing as you didn't extend the courtesy here, I'll do what I should've done the first time round: I'm calling bullshit. Name the store that has more than one security guard denying people entry at all hours. Go on.

The bouncers aren't profiling anyone, they're acting on intelligence provided to them by store staff and loss prevention officers and barring entry to those who management don't want in their store.

Uh-huh.

Most guards that aren't overseas students trying to survive are failed cops. Cops already profile people based on how they look; do I have to cite the myriad of studies proving that people whose job it is to assess people on appearance wind up racial profiling?

The thieves already create scenes and abuse staff and smash stuff, better not to let them in.

There's less money for the business letting them in.

Citation needed.

You need to experience life more.

Okay.

I have an idea: how about you cease discounting my experience, and I won't tell you point blank you know shit all about the things you're talking about.

Because you know shit all about the things you're talking about.

 

[Gethelred]

You know what?

TheEscapeClub, perhaps we both need to take a deep breath here. Before you attempt to fire back another hot tempered reply - one ruder than the last one you posted - take a bit to think first: do we disagree, or are you actively seeking to have a crack? Is it understanding you're seeking or an interpersonal spat?

Because if it's the latter, I'm out. I think you're wrong - and can probably prove it - but I've no interest in getting into something this stupid.

 

[South of the Yarra]

In Alice I saw the following

• A lot of broken people
• A lot of hurt
• A lot of pain
• A lot of desperation
• A lot of people who have given up
• A lot of people who are not in their own driver's seat
• A lot of people who are disempowered
• A lot of people who will not live beyond 40
• A lack of hope

Made me cry

 

[burge13]

In Alice I saw the following

• A lot of broken people
• A lot of hurt
• A lot of pain
• A lot of desperation
• A lot of people who have given up
• A lot of people who are not in their own driver's seat
• A lot of people who are disempowered
• A lot of people who will not live beyond 40
• A lack of hope

Made me cry

Given these things do you support the alcohol bans and curfews?

What would you do to change the place?

 

[barreness]

The question I want to know is if someone is living a lifetime on welfare and they rack up thousands of $ in court fines is do they even have to pay it all back? Does payments just get slowly taken out at $30 a week or something?

Yeh they set up payment plans, was as little as $10 a week about a decade ago, or you could chose to do a week or so in minimum security if it was in the tens of thousands.

There used to be a name and shame page on the wa courts website for unpaid fines, was mildly humorous, looks like they got rid of it.
https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...ed-online-ng-3e5ba36c48a861e63612d68bed0b7dbe
Article from 2013, dodgy companies hogging the top of the ladder

 

[Cmarsh]

1. Security guards are not like that anymore. What you're thinking of here are bouncers, and a supermarket doesn't want a bouncer anywhere near the front of their store because that bouncer would scare families away and - if they cause a scene - will get them in s**t with the local police, the local teenage population (because if they turn down a teenager, that teenager then turns up with their mother and father and the manager of the store has to deal with them potentially loudly and in public explaining why that teenager wasn't allowed into Coles; or, alternatively, a group of more than 20 teenagers at the same time not listening and not giving a *; the guards can't know how old they are before they act, are you telling me you think them using force on a minor would work wonders for the store's perceived safety?) and/or the centre management of the centre provided it's not owned by Coles/Woolies.

2. Do you have an idea how much those guards would cost and the budget a store manager has to play with at a standard Coles/Woolies to be able to say unequivocally what they should do and have it be realistic?

3. Loss prevention is less confrontational than it used to be. I've spoken to multiple guards who used to be in loss prevention, and they were much more in your face than things are now. It could be that businesses have worked out how dangerous having guards approaching potentially desperate people is (coupled with how expensive it is to pay for insurance on it) as well as how potentially bad publicity it would be to have their store in the media for racial profiling and/or intimidating school children.

In regards to point 3 - shoplifters know this and take full advantage of the favorable circumstances ie do their deeds with little consequences.

 

[Borisdog]

'Step up or get out the way': Aboriginal corporation criticised over absence in Alice Springs crisis

An Aboriginal-controlled organisation paid tens of millions of dollars in government grants each year has come under fire for declining meetings, allegedly failing to deliver services adequately and allowing a convicted domestic violence offender to sit on its board.

www.abc.net.au

Another twist in the Tale.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

'Step up or get out the way': Aboriginal corporation criticised over absence in Alice Springs crisis

An Aboriginal-controlled organisation paid tens of millions of dollars in government grants each year has come under fire for declining meetings, allegedly failing to deliver services adequately and allowing a convicted domestic violence offender to sit on its board.

www.abc.net.au

Another twist in the Tale.

It needs to be recognised that Aboriginal organisations are not run on democratic principles but on nepotism and favouritism. The “elected members” are likely to be carefully chosen from favoured elders. It’s astounding that these organisations are just handed money and no accountability is required, no books are examined, no questions are asked, even when it’s blatantly obvious that the communities are so neglected and unliveable. Because that would be “discriminatory” and “racist”.

I’m sure there must be some corporations and services doing a good job, but this one seems to be an example, not an exception.

Current and former employees of the council have spoken to the ABC about shortcomings in the leadership of Mr Shaw and the board, which is made of up of elected members from each of the town camps the organisation represents.

They criticised the council leadership's absence in community matters, including the social unrest culminating in a youth curfew in Alice Springs and the Voice to Parliament in 2023.

One former employee, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the silence from the top was failing the community.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

It needs to be recognised that Aboriginal organisations are not run on democratic principles but on nepotism and favouritism. The “elected members” are likely to be carefully chosen from favoured elders. It’s astounding that these organisations are just handed money and no accountability is required, no books are examined, no questions are asked, even when it’s blatantly obvious that the communities are so neglected and unliveable. Because that would be “discriminatory” and “racist”.

I’m sure there must be some corporations and services doing a good job, but this one seems to be an example, not an exception.

Current and former employees of the council have spoken to the ABC about shortcomings in the leadership of Mr Shaw and the board, which is made of up of elected members from each of the town camps the organisation represents.

They criticised the council leadership's absence in community matters, including the social unrest culminating in a youth curfew in Alice Springs and the Voice to Parliament in 2023.

One former employee, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the silence from the top was failing the community.

Is this different to how other organisations are run, regardless of race?

 

[Gethelred]

It needs to be recognised that Aboriginal organisations are not run on democratic principles but on nepotism and favouritism.

This is a claim to fact, Dogs, so let's test it.

Can you demonstrate that all Aboriginal organisations are run on nepotism and favouritism?

 

[Kram]

Six years ago a horrific crime sparked a promise for change in Tennant Creek. Locals want to know what went wrong

The $78 million Barkly Regional Deal sparked hopes of change for the troubled town of Tennant Creek. But many locals say there's been little progress in the years since its announcement, at the same time as conditions have worsened.

www.abc.net.au

Young NT leaders fear proposed curfew bill will unfairly target youth

Young Territorians including Darwin rapper J-MILLA have voiced concerns over a proposed bill that would allow the NT police commissioner to impose snap curfews.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Young NT leaders fear proposed curfew bill will unfairly target youth

Young Territorians including Darwin rapper J-MILLA have voiced concerns over a proposed bill that would allow the NT police commissioner to impose snap curfews.

www.abc.net.au

I don’t see how a temporary curfew is a great hardship if it has the desired effect of calming a situation that is out of hand. It seemed to work quite well in Alice to this point. “Oh I’ve just come home from boarding school and wanted to catch up with some mates.” Well you’ll just have to catch up during the daylight hours for a while, for the good of your community.

 

[burge13]

https://www.news.com.au/national/no...s/news-story/eea79ead8fdc41dda3a4fd3da583d2e1

What a place

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

https://www.news.com.au/national/no...s/news-story/eea79ead8fdc41dda3a4fd3da583d2e1

What a place

It’s difficult to close down as severely as last time as it’s the school holidays there are a lot of tourists in town. Plus it’s NAIDOC week with planned events.