List Mgmt. All Trades and Draft Part 2- Draft edition

[LittleGreekGod]

Don't know why we are not chasing Jack Newnes from the Saints.
He is a free agent only 26 and will cost us nothing.
He is an ideal depth player and he can play.
won't get any better with pick 62.

 

[STPer18]

I would call their negotiating weak, absolutely.

They absolutely were committed to get Kelly back, so they are men of their word.

But this is a deal, it's business and if this were a company investing in assets, shareholders would not be impressed with the capital outlayed as the return on investment is capped

I've heard all week that WCE were a far more attractive proposition than Freo for Tim and his family because of their culture, much to the chagrin of us Geelong supporters, among other things. What's a downgraded 2nd round pick worth against potentially eroding a culture that's taken years to develop? Haggle until the last ten minutes of trade period and leave him in limbo or risk the uncertainty of the draft...Benefits far outweigh the cons - while it may be part true that Tim is just an asset, surely the human factor plays a part. If you were a player in Vic wanting to return home to Perth, seeing Tim head home on day three of the trade period while nothing else of note has even started to happen, you'd be even more encouraged that WCE were the right club to choose.

 

[Forward Press]

Also, we're just better.

Sure, we might have more wins, more derbies, more flags, more money, more fans, more drugs...

But who has won more trade weeks? Check. Mate.

 

[Dark Sharks]

DS is a big Sheed fan ..


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Considering his stats are pretty comparable to Kelly's who we just gave 2 firsts and 2 seconds for to get to the club, i sure am

Possibly the biggest positive to take away from our entire midfield this season. Went from WAFL dweller to GF hero and top 8 B&F in 12 months.

Even more impressive was that he was 4th in our bigfooty player voting.

 

[WCE_phil]

Suspect senior players thoughts would be, we have been well paid to now, 2019 results were a wake a call, we have a closing window, premierships are what its all about = TK.

Gaff, Shepard & NN's main motivation = a premiership,

Yeo, suspect same & Shuey case point.

Bringing in TK only puts a short term strain on the SC, some big names will be gone by 2022 & Willie's salary is up in smoke.

We could delist willie now, have the it push us over the salary cap limit for this year and the afl could take away our 2019 and 2020 first and second round picks.

Would be hard to take, but i reckon we'd recover lol........

 

[Gaffy Duck]

I've heard all week that WCE were a far more attractive proposition than Freo for Tim and his family because of their culture, much to the chagrin of us Geelong supporters, among other things. What's a downgraded 2nd round pick worth against potentially eroding a culture that's taken years to develop? Haggle until the last ten minutes of trade period and leave him in limbo or risk the uncertainty of the draft...Benefits far outweigh the cons - while it may be part true that Tim is just an asset, surely the human factor plays a part. If you were a player in Vic wanting to return home to Perth, seeing Tim head home on day three of the trade period while nothing else of note has even started to happen, you'd be even more encouraged that WCE were the right club to choose.

Very good point

 

[shooshka]

Would rather give Brady Grey another go atleast you know he will do everything in his power to better himself and his team !

Agree with this.

Basically the position we have put ourselves it (I'm not unhappy with it at all, just facing reality that we will be late into this draft before our 1st pick) means we need to look at the 'next Tim Kelly'

They won't be as good (almost certainly) - but if there are players we have been working with outside of the system, to help them improve with the potential to get drafted - now is the time to pull the trigger. If it is a year early, so be it. If they don't make it, so be it. But they would be better than a Burrows or Gorter - and if just one turns into a b22 player then we are laughing.

We've been hesitant to do this in prior drafts (TK, Liam Ryan are obvious examples). If there are players we have identified as 'maybes' - who aren't going high either due to not quite being good enough or due to injury - they are the sorts we now have a free hit at.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

With Rioli on the list yet unable to play, I wonder if it will make us a little more conservative in the rookie draft this year?

Select 'sure things' who will be able to slot in if injuries strike the squad.

 

[Keys]

2016 - we nearly rookie listed Kelly
2017 - we nearly drafted Kelly but Geelong jumped in just before us
2018 - we nearly traded for Kelly but baulked at 20,22 and a future first

Hindsight is wonderful and armed with it, we’d have done things differently so I feel that we didn’t want to risk 2019 be another nearly. Might explain why we went a little bit further in negotiations

The decision not to rookie him in 2016 is the one that should haunt those responsible. Drafting Brander and Allen ahead of Kelly and walking away from the trade last year are both defensible but Gorter over Kelly not so much

 

[Forward Press]

2016 - we nearly rookie listed Kelly
2017 - we nearly drafted Kelly but Geelong jumped in just before us
2018 - we nearly traded for Kelly but baulked at 20,22 and a future first

Hindsight is wonderful and armed with it, we’d have done things differently so I feel that we didn’t want to risk 2019 be another nearly. Might explain why we went a little bit further in negotiations

The decision not to rookie him in 2016 is the one that should haunt those responsible. Drafting Brander and Allen ahead of Kelly and walking away from the trade last year are both defensible but Gorter over Kelly not so much

Bit of sliding doors, though (at the risk of copying Damien Barrett) - if we rookied Tim Kelly in 2016 would he still turn out to be the player he was today? He probably would have got games considering our midfield at the time was fairly weak but would he have pulled the numbers he got at Geelong?

 

[Dark Sharks]

Would rather give Brady Grey another go atleast you know he will do everything in his power to better himself and his team !

No sir. No no no no no. Noooooooo I respectfully disagree.

Have people/yourself actually watched Brady Gray play for the Beagles this year? He is not even in their best 10 players.

He does things which infuriate his teammates, who blast him and makes the supporters absolutely groan. Absolute definition of a wasted rookie selection IMO.

Can't deny his effort, he leaves very little on the field but he's barely WAFL standard let alone AFL standard.

Sensible to bring him in for our innaugural season, but if i think if we had some proper midfield depth he wouldn't even be playing.

Averages 16 disposals, a game. Why would you?

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

The only thing we have to go on, officially, are statements from Kelly, his manager, Vozzo, Wells etc. And they all point to Geelong wanting draft picks, us wanting to get him home with minimum fuss, and wanting to do the best for Kelly and his family. Yeah, we probably paid overs and our recruiting team knew it, but I am sure there are reasons why.

Maybe Geelong threatened to hold off until the last day? Maybe Freo were covertly working to come up with deals to satisfy Geelong? Maybe Kelly was even prepared to re-sign with Geelong if things don't pan out? We cannot be sure, and may never be sure what actually went on behind closed doors.

I am only speculating, but i think that that is what probably hapenned. Kelly was worried that he wouldn't end up getting home and had told the eagles that even though we are his preference he would have to consider a trade to Freo if no deal had been done by a certain point in time during trade week. Because his priority was getting home.

And if that hapenned that Kelly agreed to meet with Freo then Geelong would have taken it as green light that if push came to shove and if they delayed untill the last day that they could force Kelly to accept a trade there. And if they thought that that was an option then thats what they would have done.Any prospect of Geelong reluctantly accepting trading Kelly to us would have been detonated the minute Kelly so much as took a meeting with Freo. So it was a choice between paying Geelongs asking price and getting it done or watching on as the deal unravelled.

I don't buy the argument that we paid overs for him because we are such nice guys and we wanted to spare him and his family the stress of having to wait till the last day to get traded. We paid overs because, for one reason or another, we felt it was either than or the deal would fall through.

 

[kane249]

Freo asking for this years first round pick and next years first round pick for Hill, Saints would be dumb to pay that

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

If we had given up this and next years firsts i would have been OK with it. It's the two second rounders on top of that that bothers me. So i have been trying to make myself feel better about it by looking through previous drafts at second rounds and seeing how hard it is to find a quality player with second rounders anyway. And we are in a flag window, so if there is ever a time when it is justified to consciously know that you are overpaying for a player but do it anyway then i guess this is that time for us.

 

[Keys]

Bit of sliding doors, though (at the risk of copying Damien Barrett) - if we rookied Tim Kelly in 2016 would he still turn out to be the player he was today? He probably would have got games considering our midfield at the time was fairly weak but would he have pulled the numbers he got at Geelong?

True. And he alluded to that in his press conference yesterday - that had he been drafted earlier he may not have worked on his game as hard as he did

 

[wraglesweb]

No sir. No no no no no. Noooooooo I respectfully disagree.

Have people/yourself actually watched Brady Gray play for the Beagles this year? He is not even in their best 10 players.

He does things which infuriate his teammates, who blast him and makes the supporters absolutely groan. Absolute definition of a wasted rookie selection IMO.

Can't deny his effort, he leaves very little on the field but he's barely WAFL standard let alone AFL standard.

Sensible to bring him in for our innaugural season, but if i think if we had some proper midfield depth he wouldn't even be playing.

Averages 16 disposals, a game. Why would you?

It was more that I would rather Grey than Bennell insaying that I don't want either clogging up the list.

 

[WCE_phil]

I am only speculating, but i think that that is what probably hapenned. Kelly was worried that he wouldn't end up getting home and had told the eagles that even though we are his preference he would have to consider a trade to Freo if no deal had been done by a certain point in time during trade week. Because his priority was getting home.

And if that hapenned that Kelly agreed to meet with Freo then Geelong would have taken it as green light that if push came to shove and if they delayed untill the last day that they could force Kelly to accept a trade there. And if they thought that that was an option then thats what they would have done.Any prospect of Geelong reluctantly accepting trading Kelly to us would have been detonated the minute Kelly so much as took a meeting with Freo. So it was a choice between paying Geelongs asking price and getting it done or watching on as the deal unravelled.

I don't buy the argument that we paid overs for him because we are such nice guys and we wanted to spare him and his family the stress of having to wait till the last day to get traded. We paid overs because, for one reason or another, we felt it was either than or the deal would fall through.

Just so you know we had the largest offer on the table with the longest contract length. People around here should also know if you go through my posting history that I have worked with and am friends with an AFL player agent. (Not Kelly's)

Kelly is a great player and I have just finishing having coffee with said player agent and he said we paid overs. Also unless someone offers Ah Chee a 2 year contract elsewhere he'll be on our list next year.

My argument the whole time is nothing other than we paid significant overs. We paid the largest trade Sum in history (depending on how you consider the worth of Kennedy in the Judd trade at the time) for a guy that if you look at all other trade cases of similar players should have been 2 firsts with a second coming back. I've been through it before but even if you consider both our firsts are reasonably late that really only balances out not getting a second back or at the very worst us downgrading 24-36 to get the deal over the line.

Every possible scenario we were the ones to fold even on the final night before the trade was done. We absolutely wanted a second round pick back yet ended up with a third round pick back next year.

Who folds? We do. The silver lining other than the fact that we dont have any second round picks in this draft or a second one next year is that we got essendon involved who were happy to upgrade their second rounder to upgrade our fourth and geelong conceded 4 pick placings in the draft. On the premise that they believed and probably still believe that one of 36 or 37 gets jack steven from the saints.

(The same jack steven who if he gets back to full health and fitness is close to, if not as good a player as Kelly and yes i understand it's likely geelong will only get 2-3 years out of steven who is declining while we get hopefully 6 or more years out of Kelly)

 

[Keys]

What about rookie listing a different Bennell - Michael that plays for Perth

Tore the Beagles a new one in the season opener but looking at his stats looks like he fell away a bit as the year progressed.

Might be worth a look

 

[Ok Boomer]

Every club has what ifs from prior drafts.

 

[shooshka]

Every club has what ifs from prior drafts.

Yep, everyone was laughing at Richmond for missing Buddy. cost them the chance at a gun player leaving them in premiership purgatory.

Fast forward 10-12 years and they are 2-time premiers while Buddy has left his initial club (for pick 18 or so) and is permanently injured (unless playing WC ) with a couple of years to run on a big contract.

Our drafting in the last 2-3 years has been very good. TK instead of Burrows makes it elite, but doesn't take away the fact that we have a heap of young talent whilst still right at the top end of the ladder.

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

Just so you know we had the largest offer on the table with the longest contract length. People around here should also know if you go through my posting history that I have worked with and am friends with an AFL player agent. (Not Kelly's)

Kelly is a great player and I have just finishing having coffee with said player agent and he said we paid overs. Also unless someone offers Ah Chee a 2 year contract elsewhere he'll be on our list next year.

My argument the whole time is nothing other than we paid significant overs. We paid the largest trade Sum in history (depending on how you consider the worth of Kennedy in the Judd trade at the time) for a guy that if you look at all other trade cases of similar players should have been 2 firsts with a second coming back. I've been through it before but even if you consider both our firsts are reasonably late that really only balances out not getting a second back or at the very worst us downgrading 24-36 to get the deal over the line.

Every possible scenario we were the ones to fold even on the final night before the trade was done. We absolutely wanted a second round pick back yet ended up with a third round pick back next year.

Who folds? We do. The silver lining other than the fact that we dont have any second round picks in this draft or a second one next year is that we got essendon involved who were happy to upgrade their second rounder to upgrade our fourth and geelong conceded 4 pick placings in the draft. On the premise that they believed and probably still believe that one of 36 or 37 gets jack steven from the saints.

(The same jack steven who if he gets back to full health and fitness is close to, if not as good a player as Kelly and yes i understand it's likely geelong will only get 2-3 years out of steven who is declining while we get hopefully 6 or more years out of Kelly)

I agree we overpaid and it depresses me. I am not defending it. I am more just trying to make sense if it and just hoping that there is a good reason why we did it.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Rookie list targets should be the "risky" type with talent but also potentially a few question marks around them as well.

Playing it safe might be a better option when you've actually got some presence in the draft, which we don't this year unfortunately.

FIGJAM Bolton could fit this criteria. I don't know a huge deal about the bloke other than that he absolutely dominates and would be a PERFECT role model for our young midfielders in the WAFL. Who are Brayshaw, Ainsworth and O'Neil learning off in the WAFL? Nobody. There's no senior teammate in there other than a utility like Ah Chee.

Marsden is gone. Smith is an outside beatnik as well. There's no strong bodied role model doing the heavy lifting.

Hutchings probably would be actually, if we dropped him

 

[squashface]

I’d give Bennell a lifeline.

The medical staff managed to get X. Ellis’ troublesome calf right so I’d back them in with Bennell. He’s just had a kid as well so hopefully a culture change would benefit him greatly. Get Jetta around the man, he’ll sort him out.

 

[WCE_phil]

Rookie list targets should be the "risky" type with talent but also potentially a few question marks around them as well.

Playing it safe might be a better option when you've actually got some presence in the draft, which we don't this year unfortunately.

FIGJAM Bolton could fit this criteria. I don't know a huge deal about the bloke other than that he absolutely dominates and would be a PERFECT role model for our young midfielders in the WAFL. Who are Brayshaw, Ainsworth and O'Neil learning off in the WAFL? Nobody. There's no senior teammate in there other than a utility like Ah Chee.

Marsden is gone. Smith is an outside beatnik as well. There's no strong bodied role model doing the heavy lifting.

Hutchings probably would be actually, if we dropped him

The easiest way to drop hutchings is to have nelson spend the entire pre-season with the mids and working on a negating role. Have Hutch and Nelson play off against each other. Either hutch improves further or nelson plays the negating role and one of cole or duggan likely comes back in as a defender.

 

[Keys]

Kelly replaces Masten

Assuming upgrading Watson to the senior list is one of our 3 mandatory draft picks, we need to delist 2 more to make way for picks 52 and 64. Mutimer and Mallen the most likely with Brayshaw thrown an extra year

One rookie list spot with McInnes gone. Do we keep Brooksby and Smith or roll the dice with someone else