Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[wannabejack]

Don't you have a socialist barbeque at Bunnings to organise or something?

Official apron

 

[HairyO]

Yeah, keep forgetting how many times I have to repeat this.

The Ukrainian government is involved in an imperialist war of aggression against Russia, and is willingly sending ever more young Ukrainian men to die for the profit interests of Ukrainian oligarchs and their NATO/US financial backers.

The rest of Ukrainian society is being held to ransom by the criminals and fascists in the Zelensky government.

Are you capable of a post without the word "imperialist" ? Because it feels like you have no idea what it means and just keep trying to post it in the hope that you eventually get it right.

 

[wannabejack]

Are you capable of a post without the word "imperialist" ? Because it feels like you have no idea what it means and just keep trying to post it in the hope that you eventually get it right.

 

[Fire]

View attachment 2191532

That man also had something to say about accusing others of that you are most guilty.

 

[IlovethePies]

AI Overview provides an accurate explanation of what imperialism is:

 

[IlovethePies]

^Colonial expansion is only one of these facets, and as I have repeatedly made clear, the US above any other nation is most widely engaged in annihilating countries, changing governments with the purpose of installing stooge regimes, overseeing genocide in the Middle East to reconfigure national boundaries in its own interests.

The NATO powers are also involved significantly.
Finally, the role of finance capital as even more important than the transfer of commodities and international capitalist monopolies are all predominantly based in the US/Europe. The US and Europe control dominate the global financial system, and the transfer of finance capital dictates production. (Examples: Vanguard, Black Rock...)

Russia is miniscule in the overall scheme of world finance capital.
This is what is meant by the scientific use of the word imperialism. Everyone here simply uses it to mean the conquering of territory, and as the above makes clear, this is not what the scientific use of the term means at all.

Some here make ridiculous claims such that imperialism existed in the time of the Roman empire, or the Middle Ages etc, and this is why it is necessary to point out that this is not the scientific meaning of imperialism.

Imperialism is the highest stage of world capitalism, when the term is used in the scientific manner.

Russia is simply not a player of any significance in this system. It is the US and NATO which were able to attempt to strangle Russia's economy by applying sanctions and financial chokeholds, not vice verca. In other words, it was US and NATO who wielded global financial power, not Russia.

 

[IlovethePies]

View attachment 2191532

Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of the "unprovoked war" campaign unleashed after Putin's decision to invade Ukraine.

He would recognise so much of what he achieved during his tenure in Nazi Germany. Goebbels said: “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”

And this is exactly the playbook that the US and European msm utilised to perfection. "Unprovoked war, unprovoked war" was drummed out in an endless barrage. It was a highly successful campaign to prevent any serious discussion or analysis of the role of US, German and British intervention from 2014 onwards, once a pro-NATO government had been installed in Ukraine.

And for those who wish to misinterpret what I am saying, let's make clear that the exposure of NATO's role in using its proxy government in Ukraine as a vehicle for provocation against Putin does not equate to support for Putin.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine was inhuman and catastrophic, and in no way do I excuse it. But it was not unprovoked. Hence, it is clear that both sides in this conflict, the Putin regime and the Zelensky regime represent class forces that are hostile to the well being of the broad populations within both Ukraine and Russia.

 

[wannabejack]

That man also had something to say about accusing others of that you are most guilty.

I must admit I did go a bit far using Goebbles.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Yeah, keep forgetting how many times I have to repeat this.

The Ukrainian government is involved in an imperialist war of aggression against Russia, and is willingly sending ever more young Ukrainian men to die for the profit interests of Ukrainian oligarchs and their NATO/US financial backers.

The rest of Ukrainian society is being held to ransom by the criminals and fascists in the Zelensky government.

Oh dear here you go again forgetting that Russia invaded Ukraine.

 

[RonSon]

Farrrrr out.

Ukraine is involved in an imperialist war, but Russia isn't.

Please, IlovethePies explain how this is so.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of the "unprovoked war" campaign unleashed after Putin's decision to invade Ukraine.

He would recognise so much of what he achieved during his tenure in Nazi Germany. Goebbels said: “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”

And this is exactly the playbook that the US and European msm utilised to perfection. "Unprovoked war, unprovoked war" was drummed out in an endless barrage. It was a highly successful campaign to prevent any serious discussion or analysis of the role of US, German and British intervention from 2014 onwards, once a pro-NATO government had been installed in Ukraine.

And for those who wish to misinterpret what I am saying, let's make clear that the exposure of NATO's role in using its proxy government in Ukraine as a vehicle for provocation against Putin does not equate to support for Putin.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine was inhuman and catastrophic, and in no way do I excuse it. But it was not unprovoked. Hence, it is clear that both sides in this conflict, the Putin regime and the Zelensky regime represent class forces that are hostile to the well being of the broad populations within both Ukraine and Russia.

Didn't Russia with the help of Germany invade Poland at the start of the 2nd world war ina unprovoked attack?

 

[IlovethePies]

Ukraine is involved in an imperialist war, but Russia isn't.

Please, IlovethePies explain how this is so.

Of course Russia is involved in an imperialist war.

But Russia is the target of imperialism.

Ukraine is the proxy agent being used by imperialism to conduct its war of aggression against Russia.

Imperialism at this point prefers to use Ukrainian cannon fodder rather than its own cannon fodder.

That might soon change, as the European powers debate the possiblity of sending NATO troops in to reinforce the Ukrainian army, which is now massively depleted due to its staggering losses on the battle field.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Of course Russia is involved in an imperialist war.

But Russia is the target of imperialism.

Ukraine is the proxy agent being used by imperialism to conduct its war of aggression against Russia.

Imperialism at this point prefers to use Ukrainian cannon fodder rather than its own cannon fodder.

That might soon change, as the European powers debate the possiblity of sending NATO troops in to reinforce the Ukrainian army, which is now massively depleted due to its staggering losses on the battle field.

Did Ukraine attack Russia first or Russia attack Ukraine?
Let's also talk about Russia/Soviet union joining forces with Nazi Germany to attack Poland at the start of the 2nd world war.

 

[Bloods86]

Of course Russia is involved in an imperialist war.

But Russia is the target of imperialism.

Ukraine is the proxy agent being used by imperialism to conduct its war of aggression against Russia.

Imperialism at this point prefers to use Ukrainian cannon fodder rather than its own cannon fodder.

That might soon change, as the European powers debate the possiblity of sending NATO troops in to reinforce the Ukrainian army, which is now massively depleted due to its staggering losses on the battle field.

This reminds me of Confederate revisionism, where the Union started it and it was a "war of northern aggression".

 

[IlovethePies]

This reminds me of Confederate revisionism, where the Union started it and it was a "war of northern aggression".

I know i said it was late, and I was too tired, but honestly, you need to get a grip. Comparing "confederate revisionism" with the imperialist provocations against Russia is grotesque.

I honestly think that you are better than that.

 

[Bloods86]

I know i said it was late, and I was too tired, but honestly, you need to get a grip. Comparing "confederate revisionism" with the imperialist provocations against Russia is grotesque.

I honestly think that you are better than that.

It's the same concept. A factually and morally objectionable revision of history/events in order to portray the instigator as victim.

 

[IlovethePies]

A single long range missile into a residential area would be an escalation? After how many of Putin's long range missile attacks on civilians?

Okay Pies...

Yes it would, RS.

Because when NATO long range missiles start hitting distant cities such as Kazan, this will only provide fuel to those right wing fascists in Russia who want to pressure Putin into using even more devastating weapons against Ukraine.

There is just no way out by supporting an escalation of this war.

The only progressive way out of it is to fight for an end to it.

....that is what motivates me in everything I post here.

 

[IlovethePies]

Russia can end this at any time by taking their army and going home.

Reasonable point.

But the reality is that Russia can't do this.

Where would they have to withdraw to?

If it were to the borders that existed before the war started, this would represent a catastrophic strategic defeat to the Putin regime, because Ukraine would still be armed and utilised by US/NATO imperialism as a platform for launching military incursions, provocations against the Putin regime.

Putrin will not back down to accepting the previous situation (by withdrawing the Russian military presence from Ukraine), because the previous situation was what ignited the war in the first place.

US/NATO imperialism is on the warpath to overthrow Putin and dismember the Russian federation

Putin is fully aware of this agenda.

This is why it is impossible for Russia to end the war by "going home".

It is why this war is not a localised war in Ukraine, but in reality is part of an emerging global war, ie World War 3, which will destroy humanity unless the international working class builds its own revolutionary party.

 

[rank and file]

Reasonable point.

But the reality is that Russia can't do this.

Where would they have to withdraw to?

If it were to the borders that existed before the war started, this would represent a catastrophic strategic defeat to the Putin regime, because Ukraine would still be armed and utilised by US/NATO imperialism as a platform for launching military incursions, provocations against the Putin regime.

Putrin will not back down to accepting the previous situation (by withdrawing the Russian military presence from Ukraine), because the previous situation was what ignited the war in the first place.

US/NATO imperialism is on the warpath to overthrow Putin and dismember the Russian federation

Putin is fully aware of this agenda.

This is why it is impossible for Russia to end the war by "going home".

It is why this war is not a localised war in Ukraine, but in reality is part of an emerging global war, ie World War 3, which will destroy humanity unless the international working class builds its own revolutionary party.

Not sure who is paying for the international working class revolution,they need guns let alone bullets.
Maybe Albo will dig deep for a vote catcher.
End of the day Israel will get what it wants
and Putin will be happy agreed by US and SA.
China not even scratching their head playing the long game.

 

[Visions]

Reasonable point.

But the reality is that Russia can't do this.

Where would they have to withdraw to?

If it were to the borders that existed before the war started, this would represent a catastrophic strategic defeat to the Putin regime, because Ukraine would still be armed and utilised by US/NATO imperialism as a platform for launching military incursions, provocations against the Putin regime.

Putrin will not back down to accepting the previous situation (by withdrawing the Russian military presence from Ukraine), because the previous situation was what ignited the war in the first place.

US/NATO imperialism is on the warpath to overthrow Putin and dismember the Russian federation

Putin is fully aware of this agenda.

This is why it is impossible for Russia to end the war by "going home".

It is why this war is not a localised war in Ukraine, but in reality is part of an emerging global war, ie World War 3, which will destroy humanity unless the international working class builds its own revolutionary party.

TLDR;

Russia cant go back to pre-war borders because of NATO presence in Ukraine at its doorstep, Ukraine needs to capitulate so that Russia can go to new borders with NATO presence in Poland and Romania at its doorstep instead.

 

[Seeds]

^Colonial expansion is only one of these facets, and as I have repeatedly made clear, the US above any other nation is most widely engaged in annihilating countries, changing governments with the purpose of installing stooge regimes, overseeing genocide in the Middle East to reconfigure national boundaries in its own interests.

The NATO powers are also involved significantly.
Finally, the role of finance capital as even more important than the transfer of commodities and international capitalist monopolies are all predominantly based in the US/Europe. The US and Europe control dominate the global financial system, and the transfer of finance capital dictates production. (Examples: Vanguard, Black Rock...)

Russia is miniscule in the overall scheme of world finance capital.
This is what is meant by the scientific use of the word imperialism. Everyone here simply uses it to mean the conquering of territory, and as the above makes clear, this is not what the scientific use of the term means at all.

Some here make ridiculous claims such that imperialism existed in the time of the Roman empire, or the Middle Ages etc, and this is why it is necessary to point out that this is not the scientific meaning of imperialism.

Imperialism is the highest stage of world capitalism, when the term is used in the scientific manner.

Russia is simply not a player of any significance in this system. It is the US and NATO which were able to attempt to strangle Russia's economy by applying sanctions and financial chokeholds, not vice verca. In other words, it was US and NATO who wielded global financial power, not Russia.

Can you list the countries the US annilhated and the stooge governments they imposed?

 

[Aussie in exile]

Had been waiting expectantly for the Mobbs Bloodthirstiness Tier List but gotta go back to work tomorrow, so ... pushing on ...

As the Muscovian terrorism of missile barrages aimed at energy infrastructure continues, threatening the ability of the Ukrainian civilian population to heat a home or workplace throughout the harsh winters, Ukraine of course eventually concedes.

Concedes that they need to knuckle down and mitigate!

From [Servant of the People TG]


View attachment 2191933View attachment 2191934View attachment 2191935

Note that hospitals and emergency services are a favourite target of Russian aggression - we have discussed many times on these threads direct attacks on hospitals, as well as double-tap offensives striking emergency personnel who arrive on the scene of original missile attacks. Energy infrastructure attacks add to these threats if you're a medical service.

"Ilovethepies" would be very critical if Ukraine done the same in Russia, but he thinks it's alright for Russia to do it.

 

[Mobbs]

**** I posted it on the wrong thread. I'll switch it over. Sorry Aussie in exile for orphaning your reply.

 

[IlovethePies]

Well if the War crime” offends you try lodging a complaint. My view is that war crimes almost never are relevant and are determined after the war ends. In this case the perpetrators are like to have died by the end of war. So I don’t see anyone giving a shit. And surely the worker rights part of you should be happy that military and political bosses sending workers to death are themselves getting killed.

I don't care that Kirillov is dead either. I am just pointing out that the SBU is using terrorist methods to assassinate adversaries off the battle field, and the US/NATO governments are happy to go along with that - just as they were with the pager attack by Mossad in Lebanon, or Israel's targeted assassinations of military and political figures off the battle field.

It is a comment on the ongoing normalisation of war crimes on and off the battle field by the socalled "civilised democratic " governments that I am pointing to, not any concern for the death of a figure such as Kirillov.

It shows that these governments are fully embracing the evisceration of international law, and this points to a dangerous turn in the world, because it means that they are preparing to use such methods themselves in the near future.

 

[IlovethePies]

Here's some light reading for you conducted by 35 independent experts in international law and genocide. It is indeed a genocide and I will keep on using the term.

An Independent Legal Analysis of the Russian Federation’s Breaches of the Genocide Convention in Ukraine

Here's the follow up report a year later:

Updated Report on Russia's Commission of Genocide in Ukraine

Cant say I'm surprised that you find it hard to believe that Russia has trying to eradicate the Ukrainian people and culture, yet have no problem believing and sprouting that taking out a Russian General who is responsible for the use of chemical weapons is a war crime....

Thanks for posting this, I have already read alot and will continue to read through it.

The violence is horrific, the war crimes are horrific

The level of barbarism is in line with the nature of this invasion: Putin carried it out in defence of the wealth and profits of many of the most right wing, corrupt, and fascistic sections of the Russian capitalist class.

I do note that there is no definitive case that has been assembled yet as proof of genocide, unlike for example the case brought against Israel.

One of the proponents of the full genocide claim is Timothy Snyder. Snyder claims to be a historian, and he once was, but now writes historical revisionism designed to cover up the role of the OUN (Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists) in the Nazi Holocaust.

Whenever the NY Times wants to add fuel to its anti-Russia campaign, it routinely interviews Synder who now functions not as a reputable historian but as a propagandist for the US state.

In his book called Bloodlands, written in 2010, there was no mention whatsoever of the OUN, the Ukrainian fascists who collaborated with the Nazis in the extermination of Poles and Jews in Ukraine. This outrageous faslification of history serves to cover up the Ukrainian government's ongoing glorification of Stepan Bandera, the leader of the OUN.

The OUN’s ideology was shaped by violent anticommunism, ethnic Ukrainian nationalism and anti-Semitism. A May 1941 document by the OUN-B included a paragraph calling for the “clearing” of “hostile elements from the terrain of Ukraine.” It stated, “at a time of chaos and confusion liquidation of undesirable Polish, Muscovite and Jewish activists is permitted, especially supporters of Bolshevik-Muscovite imperialism.”

(One poster here - Mobbs, I think it was - used the term "Muscovite" imperialism in one of his posts, so we can now see the historical source of that particular terminology, ie Ukrainian fascism. )

There are many specialists in the field of Holocaust history who know that Snyder is covering up the history of Ukrainian fascism, but are afraid to speak out because of the prevailing anti-Russia campaign.

Snyder has also falsely claimed that the famine in the USSR in 1932 to 1933 was a deliberate genocide of the Ukrainian population by the Stalinist government. This claim has been rejected by all historians devoted to genuine historical scholarship.

It is no accident that Snyder is one of the leading proponents of the claim that Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine. He directly attributes the cause of the war to Putin's alleged "genocidal nature".

No serious historian would ever attribute WW2 to Hitler's "genocidal nature", even though Hitler did indeed carry out genocide. The causes of war are much deeper and to be found within the economic foundations of society, not in the minds of individual madmen.

So I would regard anything Snyder is claiming or involved in with total skepticism.