Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Mobbs]

Not the term "Muscovite imperialism" though.

Yes, well, that's a concatenation of two things from me. 1) I argue Russia is imperialist and 2) I commonly refer to (what we now hear is Russia) as Muscovy.

However I don't claim that being a muscovite makes you imperialist. Being imperialist, makes you imperialist - anyone can do it. I only use the term Muscovy/Muscovite to highlight the appropriation of the name Russia, which is based off Rus/Ruthenia - old names for what is now known as Ukraine. It's a useful name mainly only to refute the occasional Russian propaganda that Ukraine doesn't exist, or only exists as a satellite of Russia. Ukrainians will commonly refer to Russia as Muscovy, to remind us of the appropriation of the name.

Muscovite is not an insult. It's now a name for people from Moscow (contacts in SPb would sometimes refer to their friends on Moscow as Muscovites - there is typical inter-city rivaly much like Sydney-Melbourne etc), and historically a name for people from the Principality of Moscow (or the entity that followed directly after prior Russia, can't remember which). As the level of empire expanded, the name changed to Russia to incorporate some classical history found within the Ruthenian past.

(btw Moscow is a super old name, and its derived from the name of the the river, and from memory the only thing they've ever worked out is that it means something about water).

Learn to ****ing read.

 

[IlovethePies]

Learn to ****ing read.

Look mate, I think i have said enough already to explain my previous comment about you being bloodthirsty.

You are influenced by extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalist propaganda.

 

[Mobbs]

Look mate, I think i have said enough already to explain my previous comment about you being bloodthirsty.

You are influenced by extreme right wing Ukrainian nationalist propaganda.

Ok don't learn to ****ing read then. It's your right!

 

[Mobbs]

Another fantastic watch, from Savage Sage, debunking once again a craptonne of lies implanted into the susceptible by the empire formerly known as Muscovia.

 

[IlovethePies]

Another fantastic watch, from Savage Sage, debunking once again a craptonne of lies implanted into the susceptible by the empire formerly known as Muscovia.

Again, the term "Muscovia"...man you are really exposing yourself here.

Do you enjoy streaking?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

...sorry but if you deny facts it is impossible to have a sensible debate.... Do some research with an open mind, or stay stuck in your current position which makes of you -whether conscious of it or not - a supporter of the US drive to 3rd world war.

Russia claimed it to be a coup, but this is widely regarded as propaganda.

Just because you drank the cool-aid doesn't make it a fact.

 

[IlovethePies]

Russia claimed it to be a coup, but this is widely regarded as propaganda.

Just because you drank the cool-aid doesn't make it a fact.

If that is all you've got, then clearly you are not worth debating.

 

[IlovethePies]

war crimes have always been normal in my mind.

think it through.... we are talking about so called democratic governments who are now agreeing that it is ok for any government to carry out targeted assassinations against high level military/political figures in another government.

What does this mean, for example, when Trump becomes President?

When Trump was president last time, he carried out the assassination of the Iranian general and political figure, Soleimani.

With the normalisation of terrorism to assassinate military/political figures, what do you think Trump might do this time round??

 

[Crankyhawk]

think it through.... we are talking about so called democratic governments who are now agreeing that it is ok for any government to carry out targeted assassinations against high level military/political figures in another government.

What does this mean, for example, when Trump becomes President?

When Trump was president last time, he carried out the assassination of the Iranian general and political figure, Soleimani.

With the normalisation of terrorism to assassinate military/political figures, what do you think Trump might do this time round??

On the specific question of trump, I could see him turning against domestic threats first. I don’t expect he would restrain himself from removing an international opponent if there was personal gain (more likely extort personal favors to not kill someone imo)

 

[Aussie in exile]

Your denial of this is what is laughable.

Like you denying the USSR/Russia coup crushing in Hungary and Czechoslovakia when they didn't like what was happening their and what about the recent events in Georgia where Russia stole Georgian or doesn't that count?

 

[wannabejack]

Opinion: Why Did Usyk Brandish Mazepa’s Sword After Winning

As a proud Ukrainian Usyk was rubbing Ukraine’s centuries-long continuing struggle for freedom in the face of Putin’s imperialist Russia.

www.kyivpost.com

The proud Ukrainian warrior showed the sporting world the saber of Ivan Mazepa, a famous Cossack leader who tried unsuccessfully to liberate Ukraine from Russian rule at the beginning of the 18th century by siding with the Swedes.

“Muscovy, that is, the Great Russian nation, has always been hated by our Little Russian [the name given by the Russians to Ukrainians at this time] nation; in its malicious intentions it has long set out to drive our nation to ruin,” he [Ivan Mazepa] wrote.

Mazepa’s attempt to throw off Muscovite domination by siding with the Swedish King Charles XII ended in disaster. Peter’s victory over the Swedes and their Ukrainian allies at Poltava in 1709 sealed the fate of Ukraine and confirmed the emergence of Muscovy, or Russia or the Russian Empire, as it was henceforth to be known, as a major European power.

Voltaire wrote favorably about Mazepa and the Ukrainian cause in his first book, the History of Charles XII, in 1731. “Ukraine has always aspired to be free,” he wrote, and was of the opinion that, as part of the Russian Empire, it was ruled by Peter I “in slavery.”

The fight against "Muscovy" continues.

 

[IlovethePies]

On the specific question of trump, I could see him turning against domestic threats first. I don’t expect he would restrain himself from removing an international opponent if there was personal gain (more likely extort personal favors to not kill someone imo)

so true...he will use targeted assassinations against internal opponents.

He has the backing of the Supreme Court, and the normalisation of targeted assassinations.

This is the current drift of capitalist politics.

 

[wannabejack]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-says-russian-forces-executed-five-pows-2024-12-22/

Lubinets said on the Telegram messenger app that Russian troops shot the five unarmed soldiers after capturing them. He gave no details, but will report this fact to the UN.

From another article
Ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets reacted to a video allegedly showing Russian troops executing Ukrainian prisoners of war (POWs) on Dec. 22
It is however difficult to prove such apparent war crimes to the international court, as retrieving such bodies is often impossible.

 

[Aussie in exile]

so true...he will use targeted assassinations against internal opponents.

He has the backing of the Supreme Court, and the normalisation of targeted assassinations.

This is the current drift of capitalist politics.

Not dissimilar to Putin's opponents in Russia is it.

 

[wannabejack]

.....

Mazepa’s attempt to throw off Muscovite domination by siding with the Swedish King Charles XII ended in disaster.
....

Some here might even say that the Cossack leader Ivan Mazepa was fighting a "proxy" war for the Swedish King Charles XII.

 

[jatz14]

so true...he will use targeted assassinations against internal opponents.

He has the backing of the Supreme Court, and the normalisation of targeted assassinations.

This is the current drift of capitalist politics.

He is taking a leaf out of the book of his hero, and backer of right wing extremists everywhere, Putin.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

Here is a quote from the Editorial position of the NY Times (written 2 days ago):

"It can’t be ignored that in his first term, Mr. Trump played a significant role in fostering at least some of the risk the world now faces. Yet, given the changed landscape, the United States will have no choice but to lead — something that, based on his campaign rhetoric, Mr. Trump appears to embrace.

In the past, Mr. Trump has said that he first appreciated the true danger of nuclear weapons after talking to an unlikely source: his uncle, an M.I.T. professor. In 1986, when he was still principally a New York real estate developer, Mr. Trump reached out to the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War, which had just received a Nobel Peace Prize for its disarmament work. He hoped to arrange negotiations with the Soviets to lower the nuclear threat.

Now it will be the job of President Trump to pull the world back from the brink. It’s time to discuss what he and the United States should prioritize."


Points to note for the various war mongers and idiots on this thread:

a) Even the NY Times, a mouthpiece for the US intelligence agencies and Wall St, recognises that the threat of nuclear war is very real.

b) The NY Times and the so called "progressive Left"( ie the Democrats, for whom the NY Times speaks) have degenerated to such a level that they are calling on Trump to "pull us back from the brink"

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Here is a quote from the Editorial position of the NY Times (written 2 days ago):

"It can’t be ignored that in his first term, Mr. Trump played a significant role in fostering at least some of the risk the world now faces. Yet, given the changed landscape, the United States will have no choice but to lead — something that, based on his campaign rhetoric, Mr. Trump appears to embrace.

In the past, Mr. Trump has said that he first appreciated the true danger of nuclear weapons after talking to an unlikely source: his uncle, an M.I.T. professor. In 1986, when he was still principally a New York real estate developer, Mr. Trump reached out to the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War, which had just received a Nobel Peace Prize for its disarmament work. He hoped to arrange negotiations with the Soviets to lower the nuclear threat.

Now it will be the job of President Trump to pull the world back from the brink. It’s time to discuss what he and the United States should prioritize."


Points to note for the various war mongers and idiots on this thread:

a) Even the NY Times, a mouthpiece for the US intelligence agencies and Wall St, recognises that the threat of nuclear war is very real.

b) The NY Times and the so called "progressive Left"( ie the Democrats, for whom the NY Times speaks) have degenerated to such a level that they are calling on Trump to "pull us back from the brink"

funny thing is Trump talking about not protecting countries is exactly what would create a nuclear arms race. This is one of the biggest reasons the US play world police. The moment they don’t have military bases and strong alliances around the world in the moment every country seeks Nuclear weapons for protection.
If they are actually worried about Nuclear weapons then you fully support Ukraine so that other countries know they don’t need nuclear weapons in the future for protection.

 

[IlovethePies]

funny thing is Trump talking about not protecting countries is exactly what would create a nuclear arms race. This is one of the biggest reasons the US play world police. The moment they don’t have military bases and strong alliances around the world in the moment every country seeks Nuclear weapons for protection.
If they are actually worried about Nuclear weapons then you fully support Ukraine so that other countries know they don’t need nuclear weapons in the future for protection.

??? What?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

??? What?

Obviously if countries like Poland, Japan, South Korea and hopefully Australia ect didn’t have strong alliances with the US they would all currently be looking at producing nuclear weapons after seeing what can happen to a country like Ukraine who isn’t under US protection. Trump’s isolationist rhetoric is dangerous (although he has several good points)
Allowing imperialistic countries like Russia to freely steal land is only going to increase the future risk of nuclear war because of obvious reasons.

 

[IlovethePies]

Obviously if countries like Poland, Japan, South Korea and hopefully Australia ect didn’t have strong alliances with the US they would all currently be looking at producing nuclear weapons after seeing what can happen to a country like Ukraine who isn’t under US protection. Trump’s isolationist rhetoric is dangerous (although he has several good points)
Allowing imperialistic countries like Russia to freely steal land is only going to increase the future risk of nuclear war because of obvious reasons.

I still don't understand what you are saying.

Ukraine is clearly under US protection: the US has been pumping billions of dollars of military aid into Ukraine.

The imperialist countries are the US, and its NATO allies.

Russia is not an imperialist country. It is the target of US and European imperialism.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I still don't understand what you are saying.

Ukraine is clearly under US protection: the US has been pumping billions of dollars of military aid into Ukraine.

The imperialist countries are the US, and its NATO allies.

Russia is not an imperialist country. It is the target of US and European imperialism.

lol tell Poland that if Russia invaded them the US would provide the same support they have to Ukraine and they would start building Nukes tomorrow.

Sorry I forgot, the country invading another country to steal their land aren’t the imperialist’s.

 

[Zidane98]

I still don't understand what you are saying.

Ukraine is clearly under US protection: the US has been pumping billions of dollars of military aid into Ukraine.

The imperialist countries are the US, and its NATO allies.

Russia is not an imperialist country. It is the target of US and European imperialism.

Ukraine is not under the protection of the US.

Ukraine gets aid in the form of obsolete military equipment. Munitions that are expiring anyway from the US.

It gets absolutely zero military assistance from US and / or NATO.

This is a fact.

You also at fully aware of the fact that Russia is about the only imperialist state left on earth these days. Russia attacks, invades, subjugatea neighbours that do not submit to Moscow's wishes.


If other states see Ukraine defeated to Russia, a state it signed an explicit security agreement with they will seek nuclear weapons as it is simply a proven fact that nuclear states do not get invaded.

So you should be supporting Zelensky & Ukrainians in their heroic fight against Russian fascist scum if you value a world without nuclear weapons.


We all know you the reasons why you don't and instead choose to repeat ad nauseam pro Russian lies about Putin's war on Ukraine.

 

[IlovethePies]

lol tell Poland that if Russia invaded them the US would provide the same support they have to Ukraine and they would start building Nukes tomorrow.

Sorry I forgot, the country invading another country to steal their land aren’t the imperialist’s.

Mate, you need to take a critical view, and avoid falling in with propaganda.

There has never been any evidence whatsoever produced to show that Putin intends to invade Poland, or any other NATO country on its border.

This is just NATO propaganda to portray Putin as an insane empire building madman.

I absolutely oppose Putin for his dictatorial and murderous policies.

But he is not seeking empire. He is seeking a deal with the US/NATO to guarantee Russia's borders and security.


In fact, it is NATO/US imperialism, backing Zelensky, and seeking to use the Ukrainian army as cannon fodder to overthrow Putin and install a more pliant, stooge government in Russia, which will agree to hand over all of Russia's massive mineral wealth to US and European capitalist corporations.

And it is this aim which is leading to the threat of nuclear war, because clearly Putin and those class layers who support him will not just lie down and surrender.

 

[rank and file]

Ukraine is not under the protection of the US.

Ukraine gets aid in the form of obsolete military equipment. Munitions that are expiring anyway from the US.

It gets absolutely zero military assistance from US and / or NATO.

This is a fact.

Except for The Ukraine Defence Contact Group that meets at Ramstien once a month to nut out what they're going to give Ukraine.
An alliance of 57 countries including all the NATO members,to suggest that all they're giving away is 'obsolete military equipment' and 'munitions that are expiring anyway' is absurd.