The rabbi
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That's what can happen when you quickly cut & paste & edit someone else's post to extract a little urine out of them.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Opinion Best 23 Pre Trade/Draft - Season 2024
- Thread starter Son_Of_God29
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Riccardi not adding to the depth given delisted…but
I think what teams who make a big jump have shown is that they not only need improvement in prior year best 23 but that they need at least 3-4 come into that 23 (at expense of the prior year).
Cats in 22 we have SDK, Stengle and someone (sorry you will all correct me) come into best 22 with people like Higgens, Dal (and Hendo leaving) falling out from 2021? Collingwood this year had 4 new to the club in best 22 etc.
So I think we need to hope that 3 “newbies” come in…
You have J Clark and Conway (although he is in twice) so we “need” one or two more. To me that needs to be either Dempsey/Knevitt or maybe pick 7/8. I am not saying they are currently in that best 23 but if we are going to challenge I think history says one or both will need to have break out years. Maybe you could count Guthrie
In terms of who needs to come out (not because they get worse just because we need others to get better than them) I think we have a number of candidates who would be picked end of 2023 but we need to be out of 23 at end of 2024 for us to be a contender…no suprise that all of them are probably in their last year (like higgins and Dal in 2022)…
Stanly (to be replaced by a surging Conway) - tbh as much as I love Conway I think this is the least likely in 2024
2E (If he is still in best 23 at end of the year I don’t think we contend)
MOC
Rohan (I love him but again I think we need players to go past him for us to truely contend)
Kolo
Bews
Again, I am not saying those 6 are not best 23 as it currently sits…but I think 3 of them NEED to be out of best 23 for us to challenge
I am also not 100% Bowes retains his spot in best 23 and Parfitt is a who knows…
Iv Beeb a fan of Blitz playing midfield the last few years, but next year I'd like move back to defence, but still can play as that 2nd ruck.
We need to do some small steps and make his position in the midfield and give that to younger kid so we can put more youthful players in the midfield, as we need to keep bleeding youthful kids
We need to do some small steps and make his position in the midfield and give that to younger kid so we can put more youthful players in the midfield, as we need to keep bleeding youthful kids
small 4wards
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this is a proper spitball idea but the only person with similar speed to him on the list is probably Holmes, i.e wondering if we could play him as a pressure forward to run down defenders
Conway has to be starting ruck.. Time to start developing him. Looked super promising against the doggies
Dempsey is all class and has brilliant hands and vision. Something we severely lack in the middle. I would play him every week and run him through the midfield/forward.
Clarke needs to be in there. I'd look to play him off halfback with a few stints through the mid.
My starting 23 - 2024
J Henry SDK Z Guthrie
J Clarke Stewart Duncan
Holmes Bruhn Blicavz
Close Cameron Rohan
O Henry Hawkins Stengle
Conway Danger Dempsey
INT/EMG - C Guthrie Bews Miers Atkins Kolo MO'C Bowes Parfitt Knevitt Stanley Tuohy
Dempsey is all class and has brilliant hands and vision. Something we severely lack in the middle. I would play him every week and run him through the midfield/forward.
Clarke needs to be in there. I'd look to play him off halfback with a few stints through the mid.
My starting 23 - 2024
J Henry SDK Z Guthrie
J Clarke Stewart Duncan
Holmes Bruhn Blicavz
Close Cameron Rohan
O Henry Hawkins Stengle
Conway Danger Dempsey
INT/EMG - C Guthrie Bews Miers Atkins Kolo MO'C Bowes Parfitt Knevitt Stanley Tuohy
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This is why we don't let St Kilda barrackers pick our team
While it's fun to do a best 22, to win premierships its more about the top 30. Especially with the increased games lately, we need to be able to cycle through good players.
Anyway below is my best/expected(boring) 22 to start the season.
Bews SDK Henry
Duncan Stewart Zuthrie
Holmes Guthrie Blicavs
Miers Cameron Henry
Close Hawkins Stengle
Conway Dangerfield Atkins
O'Connor Kolo Bruhn Rohan
Emerging players / back up: Stanley, Tuohy, Parfitt, Clark, Knevitt, Dempsey, Neale, Bowes, Mullin
By the end of the year, we'd hope to have started phasing out older players and have some younger players take over:
Anyway below is my best/expected(boring) 22 to start the season.
Bews SDK Henry
Duncan Stewart Zuthrie
Holmes Guthrie Blicavs
Miers Cameron Henry
Close Hawkins Stengle
Conway Dangerfield Atkins
O'Connor Kolo Bruhn Rohan
Emerging players / back up: Stanley, Tuohy, Parfitt, Clark, Knevitt, Dempsey, Neale, Bowes, Mullin
By the end of the year, we'd hope to have started phasing out older players and have some younger players take over:
- Tuohy and Duncan mid/half back spot to be replaced by combination of O'Connor, Mullin and Bowes, with Bews as lockdown defender until he can be replaced.
- I always find it hard to find a spot for Kolo, who then goes on to play almost every game and is rarely dropped.
- We are missing that one prime Dangerfield-esk midfielder (fingers crossed for Bazlenka 2024) but we will need to manage the likes of Danger and Guthrie, to pump midfield minutes into Holmes, Clark, Bruhn, Knevitt, even Parfitt as a last resort.
- Stanley and Conway to share ruck duties and play 10-15 games each.
- Whilst Hawkins is evergreen, I expect him to retire before he is 40, so we need to be able to pump a minimum 10 game into Neale.
- Rohan can play and still has value, but replaced by Henry, whilst rotating in Dempsey.
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You really need to improve on attention to detail - ie. make sure you are using the correct account when posting
I like a fair bit of your post but given Smith has left, I think only one of Tuohy and Duncan need to be phased out. Or they can share a rotating veteran role. It's too extreme to cull too many veterans at once.
Bews currently looks more cooked than Duncan - just because he is younger and we have a need for a lockdown small doesn't mean he should get preference. We need our class and precise ball use back.
Kolo on the other hand, I feel we need him in the side and need to pray he can find some form. Our defence is always reliant on 3 talls, with one particularly adept at intercepting and sagging off - which would be Henry.
Blicavs I see as inside mid and relief ruck who will also sit back behind the ball for protection. I'd rather unleash Dempsey, Bowes or even Miers/Close up to the wing for some more dynamism and class. Because I feel we can cover forwards, especially if Dangerfield rotates through the half forward flank a fair bit.
I think with a full strength side and the youngsters a year further in we will have plenty of options. 2023 we simply had to make do with what we had and accept we wer starting 5 best 22 down most weeks.
For my best 22, how we play is important.
I think a lot of teams are going to try to emulate Collingwoods play style. A lot of teams will flood the contest. I think the way to beat that is it move the ball out as quickly as possible and take advantage of the extra space a kick away from the congestion. if we don't have control then a high hacked kick forward or knock on our aim should be to move the ball forward as quickly as possible. My aim would be to play a three kick to I50 game from congestion. The way I'd facilitate this is by ensuring our wingmen have an aerial advantage. Ahead of the ball we should be as tall as possible.
On a turnover from half back, unless there is quick play on through the centre we should aggresively switch with Duncan given a license to cut through the middle of the opposiving side doesn't move across in an organsied fashion. I would stop playing Stewart as a plus one. I want him playing against a midsized marking opponent and then run off when appropriate.
I'd also try to preserve Dangerfield, the best way to do that is to minimise his inside mid minutes. I want him 50-50 forward mid.
Blicavs moves to the fat side wing, and no longer does any ruck work. I'd move O.Henry to the skinny side wing, he likes having space for long leading marks. When Blicavs goes to the bench or takes some inside mid minutes Rohan pushes to the wing.
I'd stop playing Cameron as a KPF, half the teams weren't sending a KPD to him anyway. Rohan takes the fat side HFF.
Having a half forward line of Cameron Neale and Rohan gives us a massive freedom to move the ball in all directions. Where ever their opposing teams intercepting KPD goes we chose the different option.
One risk is that our inside midfield rotations are shallow.
FB Henry De Koning Z.Guthrie
HB Stewart Kolodjashnij Duncan
C O.Henry Guthrie Blicavs
HF Cameron Neale Rohan
FF Dangerfield Hawkins Stengle
Fol Stanley Bruhn Atkins
Int Bowes Holmes Miers Close
I think a lot of teams are going to try to emulate Collingwoods play style. A lot of teams will flood the contest. I think the way to beat that is it move the ball out as quickly as possible and take advantage of the extra space a kick away from the congestion. if we don't have control then a high hacked kick forward or knock on our aim should be to move the ball forward as quickly as possible. My aim would be to play a three kick to I50 game from congestion. The way I'd facilitate this is by ensuring our wingmen have an aerial advantage. Ahead of the ball we should be as tall as possible.
On a turnover from half back, unless there is quick play on through the centre we should aggresively switch with Duncan given a license to cut through the middle of the opposiving side doesn't move across in an organsied fashion. I would stop playing Stewart as a plus one. I want him playing against a midsized marking opponent and then run off when appropriate.
I'd also try to preserve Dangerfield, the best way to do that is to minimise his inside mid minutes. I want him 50-50 forward mid.
Blicavs moves to the fat side wing, and no longer does any ruck work. I'd move O.Henry to the skinny side wing, he likes having space for long leading marks. When Blicavs goes to the bench or takes some inside mid minutes Rohan pushes to the wing.
I'd stop playing Cameron as a KPF, half the teams weren't sending a KPD to him anyway. Rohan takes the fat side HFF.
Having a half forward line of Cameron Neale and Rohan gives us a massive freedom to move the ball in all directions. Where ever their opposing teams intercepting KPD goes we chose the different option.
One risk is that our inside midfield rotations are shallow.
FB Henry De Koning Z.Guthrie
HB Stewart Kolodjashnij Duncan
C O.Henry Guthrie Blicavs
HF Cameron Neale Rohan
FF Dangerfield Hawkins Stengle
Fol Stanley Bruhn Atkins
Int Bowes Holmes Miers Close
B Guthrie Blitz Bews
HB Stewart DeKoning J Henry
C Holmes Atkins Knevitt
HF Miers Cameron O Henry
F Close Hawkins Stengle
R Conway Dangerfield Guthrie
Int Duncan Bowes Bruhn
Parfitt Rohan
Have to play Blitz down defence as it's start of moving younger midfielders into his position. Still play as the 2nd ruck
Obviously Stanley and Conway will share the ruck during the season, as Stanley will play majority of them
Hoping Willis has a full pre-season, as he can be something special.
Stengle is on notice for me, his season this year was very poor, but hope his body is better.
Neale I hope plays 8-10 games this season.
Clarke, Dempsey, Clohesy and basically alot of other kids can surprise us all and push anyone to get in there
HB Stewart DeKoning J Henry
C Holmes Atkins Knevitt
HF Miers Cameron O Henry
F Close Hawkins Stengle
R Conway Dangerfield Guthrie
Int Duncan Bowes Bruhn
Parfitt Rohan
Have to play Blitz down defence as it's start of moving younger midfielders into his position. Still play as the 2nd ruck
Obviously Stanley and Conway will share the ruck during the season, as Stanley will play majority of them
Hoping Willis has a full pre-season, as he can be something special.
Stengle is on notice for me, his season this year was very poor, but hope his body is better.
Neale I hope plays 8-10 games this season.
Clarke, Dempsey, Clohesy and basically alot of other kids can surprise us all and push anyone to get in there
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J Henry
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lettheboysplay
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I am sorry, but just.. it's not hard to look up the spelling of a player's surname. Also, Dempsey in the middle. A guy who has played seven games where he has averaged just a tick over 8 disposals... gargh.
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I appreciate the format of having 30 senior core players - I also think clubs are very much line-oriented now, excepting for a few blokes who do both - e.g. Blicavs, Jack Henry from time to time, Dangerfield etc.
I honestly think Cam Guthrie was being groomed as a half back before he got injured. He was best on ground for a quarter against Carlton in Round 2 (after a stinky first three quarters) where he had about 12 touches and 6 or 7 marks. I feel he will play more down back next year as Bruhn, Clark, Holmes and even someone like Mullin get more midfield time. Doesn't mean he won't still see a large number of midfield minutes but he gives our defence something we really, really lacked this year. Creativity and presence - Stewart the exception of course.
Our huge issue is our KPP depth down back with Esava leaving and Sam still developing. I see Henry as a very serviceable swingman and when fit an excellent player for us, but I still think he's more of a Tom Stewart zone defender than a lock down. Kolo is lockdown but not super big and Zach Guthrie has shown he is a very proficient defender of small-mid sized forwards. That means when we play a club like Brisbane or Carlton, we will have some personnel issues if Curnow and McKay (a little bit lol but also think he will be much better with some time off footy) catch fire.
For us to be a top four side again next year (and I'm eternally optimistic), we need serious improvement from our young kids. Clark showed in two quarters he is going to be a real player if he stays fit. I was super impressed. He will play a fair bit - while I put down the bloke just before re: Dempsey, we need him to find some of his seconds form in the ones. I personally think Conway should be our first choice, but with Stanley playing too in order to not chuck him to the wolves. Bruhn will be better for a preseason and I think his season was a little underrated. Had some crucial moments, just needs to find the ball a bit more and be in the game for longer. Only 20. Huge upside.
I'm currently sitting in the 'Limited Tuohy appearances' camp, not because I don't adore the bloke and what's he has contributed to the club, but we really need to inject some youth into our wing-back rotation. At least one of Knev and Mullin should be playing every game (pending fitness). Not sold on Bowes - think he is a good depth player, but question marks on his composure, and reluctantly on his courage under fire - I don't like criticising guys for being 'soft' who are on a professional sporting ground because that is ridiculous, but I did note a couple of Josh Hunt-like moments from him. Hopefully he can put on twenty kilos of muscle like Josh and become a player - he's highly skilled and as I said, good depth.
I think Rohan's speed is invaluable, but as you said, he's ageing and injury prone and Ollie Henry is going to be a star when everything starts to work for him - to kick 40-odd goals in his third season is astounding.
Neale looked good round 24 - just hard to see where he consistently plays whilst Hawk and Jez are still clearly are first choices - hope we can get some games into him and he doesn't pull a Ratagaleou (with all due respect). Let's face it, Hawk isn't playing 24+ games at his age - it would be crazy.
Also a couple of kids it is do or die for: James Willis has some potential but not sure where he fits - half forward. Clohesy should get some games - looks like a TAK Jr. Mitch Hardie - not too sure. Probably on borrowed time, but is far from terrible.
Knevitt SDK Jack Henry
Zuthrie Disco (Stew) Mitch (back/mid/wing)
Holmes (wing/mid) Bruhn (maybe some fwd time?) Blicavs (wing/mid)
Miers (more mid minutes) Cameron Dangerfield (mid rotation)
Stengle Hawkins OHenry
Conway (predominately ruck - 70%) Guthrie (back rotation) Atkins
Clark (wing/mid), Close(fwd), O'Connor (back/defensive mid), Stanley (Ruck, pinch fwd)
Mullin (back/defensive mid) Sub
Kolo, Neale, Rohan, Parf, Tuohy, Bews, Bowes, Clohesy etc etc
In saying all this, long way to go.
Except I'm not a STK fan.. I put that in my profile years ago when commenting on my local league so no-one would figure out who I was.. Now I cant find where to change it..
Our midfield is old and tired, with a distinct lack of any creative handballing/clearance players. So, yes, absolutely Dempsey. I would throw him in the deep end.I am sorry, but just.. it's not hard to look up the spelling of a player's surname. Also, Dempsey in the middle. A guy who has played seven games where he has averaged just a tick over 8 disposals... gargh.
He has shown he is a cut above in the reserves, can find the footy and the goals and has some X-factor about him.
His AFL stats wont show much, as he has mainly been the sub/floating forward.
What other midfield options do we have?
Dangerfield - Still got it, but aging, 34 in APR
Guthrie - 32 next year
Duncan - 33 in June - Wing/flank roles only now.
Blitz - 33 in March
Atkins - 28 - A bull, but doesn't find the footy much.
Bowes - 26 - Brought in as a mid, but then was never played there.
Parfitt - 26 - Lacks class.
Bruhn - I think will make it. Has a brilliant shimmy/sidestep. Has some X-Factor, but struggles to find the footy. Best game was 23 touches only.
Holmes - Maxy is great, still developing but can go cold (absolutely toweled up by J Daicos late in the season). Still more of a wingman.
The problem with that lot is that they are all kicking mids. Not one of them seems to have any decent handballing skill/class/vision in close.
That's the sort of player we are missing, that's why I'd chuck Dempsey in there.
Kobe Gryant
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The midfield needs to change, but not for the reasons you're making out.
Duncan barely attended centre bounces all year. Parfitt hardly played. Danger was injured and then hampered thereafter. Guthrie was virtually out all year. Bowes was hampered himself and was 'Mr Fix it' to a degree with our injuries, likewise Blitz.
We're going to see a very different side next year. Bruhn, Holmes, Knevitt, Clark, Conway & potentially Sanders & Edwards is one of the better young midfield cores going around.
They are all going to need games, and hopefully with some injury luck, we'll have the ability to manage our veterans & kids through the season.
It all depends on development over the summer for mine, but we'll need to find the balance between youth & experience (Like 2022 & 2011).
Guthrie back in will be huge, and he's so vital to us that I'd be managing him to 15 games or so. Likewise Danger & Blitz as the old boys running through there.
I know many are prepared to right Duncan off, but I'm not prepared to stick a fork in him just yet. Hopefully he finally had uninterrupted off season, and he can resume off half back.
Holmes returns to the wing, with Bowes being released into the midfield. Bruhn, Clark, Knevitt & Dempsey will all need a minimum of 15 games next year, with their management being key too.
If we are to pick up a Sanders and/or Edwards, I'd like to see them get 5-10 games as well.
Up forward, O Henry, Close, Stengle & Miers will be the constants, with Jezza, Hawk, & Rohan's management again being key. Neale needs games, and the older guys need to be firing at the pointy end.
Down back, Stewart, Jack Henry & SDK & Zuthrie are locked in, with Kolo, Bewsy & Touhy on notice. We need some pace coming out of that backline, and I'd be prepared to draft Angus Hastie or pump games into Mullin to get it.
Again though, the pre-season will tell us a lot about where players are at. Players like Touhy, Duncan & Bews who appear to be on the brink might be okay with 6 months to refresh and become fit again. We don't know.
If I had to guess, I'd go with this:
FB Kolodjashnij. De Koning. Zuthrie.
HB Stewart. J Henry. Duncan.
C Holmes. Bruhn. Dempsey.
HF Close. Cameron. Miers
FF Henry. Hawkins. Stengle
FO Stanley. Dangerfield. C Guthrie
I/C Atkins, Blicavs, Clark, Rohan
Sub: Bowes
Depth/Management
Knevitt
MOC
Bews
Touhy
Mullin
Conway
Neale
Willis
Parfitt
Hardie
Kroeger
Clohesy
Pick 8/Sanders
Pick 25/ C Edwards
**********************
I've just made that up on the fly, and it's subject to change, but what suprised me most was how hard it was to fit players in.
We do have genuine depth, we just never got to see it because of the injury issues last year. Even when I was trying to favour kids over experience, it's hard to fit them all in.
We just need a little bit of luck, and the proper approach over the pre-season and things can really change for us IMO.
Management will be key, as will banking the wins early, but I'd be very optimistic as a Cats fan right about now.
At best, we have a big pre-season, get lucky with injury, we add a couple of kids to the side, and we're back where we belong.
Much like Holmes, SDK & Stengle in 2023, & Duncan, Christensen, Vardy & Menzel in 2011.
At worst, we have a poor year and play the kids, who are the best group of youngsters we've had since the early 2000s. It's the most exciting and potential filled group we've had in so long it's not funny.
Blicavs will be even more versatile next year according to the Herald Sun
We have plenty of depth but that does not win you the cup.
How many A-grade players do we have? Perhaps Stewart only.
We have plenty coming through but potential is potential.
This year there will be a big turnover of players because of age and general clean out. Lets hope Bruhn, Clark, Conway ....come through We need some top shelf players badly.
How many A-grade players do we have? Perhaps Stewart only.
We have plenty coming through but potential is potential.
This year there will be a big turnover of players because of age and general clean out. Lets hope Bruhn, Clark, Conway ....come through We need some top shelf players badly.
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TheBrownDog
I think bowes will do ok if fit. Long term hes a placeholder but short term he gets games as we lack the middle age bracket (even more so with sav gone and if henry jack is injured). I think its more likely someone like bews falls out and bowes gets that spot. His footy when fit was ok and the versatility to play as a small back/hb (we will need someone there if we phase bews out as i think mullin is too raw for that) and a big body in mids to protect guys like clark has some value.
For me bruhn and ollie henry are clearly best 23 now.
On your bit the kids most likely to become best 22 in 2024 are clearly clark and knevitt (and the midfield needs them) and dempsey (unless we want to lose him to another club). Conway is the other one purely bc of our lack of depth at ruck but i doubt he is fit enough to play more than 12 games but 24 will be stanleys last year so conway is no1 by 25 unless we bring a mature ruck in.
Back to 24 i think ted mullin and neale are chances to be best 22 but they are further back than the others.
Hawkins and danger will play (when fit) for class and structure reasons and of the other over 30s blicavs and guthrie are the most important for structure along with stanley (until conway is ready).
Of the other over 30s
If dempsey becomes auto 22 we will have a forward half logjam so i think rohan struggles for games.
If danger and guthrie and atkins plus bruhn clark are your inside mids and knevitt and holmes are the two wingers i think tuohy gets pushed out.
If moc and bowes both play all year then bews falls out.
Those 3 plus stanley (if somehow conway gets a tank real quick) are the most likely to become the dahl/higgins/menegola of recent years.
Duncan is also marginal but i still think his down form was due to no pre season with calf issues and at his best his kicking skills are what we need and dont have a lot of. I think hes done physically as a high kms winger but i think he could play a role at hb or hf.
I do agree moc is marginal and could miss out too but what will help him is he is generally fairly fit (ie not injured much) and positionally versatile including good ability for tagging. Long term he is simply a placeholder until our kids come on but for the next couple of years he probably gets games like bowes.
I would have had kolo vulnerable as well but we have zero kpd depth with sav gone (unless we draft someone like vdh and he smashes it) so he will stay. We could go shorter down back and have moc or zuthrie be the 3rd tall but that is generally unlike us structure wise. What we need is to find a mature kpd so we can phase kolo out the year after. The only realistic way kolp goes right now is if blitz becomes 3rd tall back/2nd ruck but we have been reluctant to put him back there.
I dont think parf gets back in primarily because of his lack of positional versatility. Yes we need more mid depth but we also need guys who can roll through wings or other spots like knevitt can. If bruhn and clark are starting inside mids thats already 2 that cant play a 2nd position and i think both are much better than him long term. Unless he can reinvent himself somewhere else like as a small defender i think he spends the year in the vfl (where his leadership will be really good for the academy kids) then leaves as a free agent.
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Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
I dont disagree with a lot of that but clark has exactly that vision in close which will really help our midfield if he comes on.
Pure_Ownage
TheBrownDog
For me rohan is not needed if both ollie henry and dempsey plus the small fwds are there. 3 medium fwds none of whom can ruck are overkill (especially if danger plays part time fwd as well theres plenty of marking options but we need more mids). Either you give rohans spot to an extra 2nd ruck option (which would be neale as a fwd/relief ruck which you would only do if blitz goes back to defence) or you give it to an extra mid option-knevitt is my preference.
I agree the u23 group is very good and long term we will have a good team. The issue is the 24-28yo ish group is very average (atkins aside) and we probably have at least 6 retirements in the next 2 years so we will need to trade in some decent mid aged players (hello bailey smith) to bridge the gap between the older guys and the younger ones.
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