Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXV - 'Loopy' Season has begun

[BlueBlood15]

Personally, I don't see an issue with this. I'm sure some will.

The coach's job is to win games and, by extension, flags.

The list management team's job is to balance the immediate needs of the list with the future list strategy, and ensure that the finite resources (cap space, draft picks, list spots) are utilised efficiently.

There will naturally be times that the preferences of each department clash. Neither side is necessarily right by default either - maybe this is the year that an elite ball user will catapult us into a GF appearance, but maybe it won't and overcommitting resources to that signing will hamper us in years to come.

I expect there will be robust discussion between the two departments. The LM team has the final say, so the onus is on the coaching group to convince them. Likely outcome is some kind of compromise - where the LM team commit to trying to secure Houston is the price fits within certain parameters, and if not then they will work to draft or recruit an alternative player who potentially brings some of the same skills.

You are absolutely right BB. There’s nothing wrong with a coach pushing for a player to win now and the list management team wanting to take a longer term strategy.

However, why such a tension may be problematic for us is that it needs to be resolved by a quality head of football who oversees both the coaches and the list management team. Unfortunately at Carlton we’ve got Brad Lloyd.

 

[Jimmae]

Houston isn't worth what Port want for him, and it gives them a bonus for signing Isaac Cumming. For ****'s sake Carlton, do some serious groundwork and get the player we need instead of rolling over.

If that can't be done just go with Wilson, he's got the skills.

I want to clarify this further: chase Isaac Cumming, and bare minimum make it so Port has to get ridiculous with their money... we should be able to afford him.

Houston for anything more than a pick in the 18-30 range is a waste of time when we have to continue developing our list.

This place has gone mad haha. They’d rather take a speculative risk with pick 11 as opposed to bring in Houston all because we have Wilson who hasn’t played a senior game.

This kind of thinking is peak Carlton supporter. You should rename your account to one of the following:

• ShillForVoss
• GhostOfElliot
• CashBagsMakeFlags

Congratulations on calling everyone else mad when you can't read what's being presented in front of you, and for agreeing to trading away two first round picks (this one in a very strong draft) for a 28 year old who has average pace for an AFL player, let alone a running defender.

Was all for drafting Houston as a rookie years ago, but this kind of assessment is over the top and ludicrous. He's not worth a first at this age, ever.

This is what pick 11 can genuinely put us in the frame for this year:



But I doubt you've spent the 2 minutes to go find out, and instead spend weeks on end throwing foolish pot shots at everyone else who has the audacity to use more than 20 words to communicate an idea. Put a pin in it.

 

[Stamos]

Have you ever heard the story about the four list managers having a conference call?

One was rebuilding from the bottom, one who just missed the finals, another who almost lost their way completely but scraped in due to two of the others, and one on the precipice of a colossal choke job.

I haven't.
Is this a recent story?

Hartley, Leppitsch, Austin, Cripps?

 

[DollarsandSense]

I don't know yet if the lack of Bluemours is exciting or quite disturbing........

 

[Opium]

Personally, I don't see an issue with this. I'm sure some will.

The coach's job is to win games and, by extension, flags.

The list management team's job is to balance the immediate needs of the list with the future list strategy, and ensure that the finite resources (cap space, draft picks, list spots) are utilised efficiently.

There will naturally be times that the preferences of each department clash. Neither side is necessarily right by default either - maybe this is the year that an elite ball user will catapult us into a GF appearance, but maybe it won't and overcommitting resources to that signing will hamper us in years to come.

I expect there will be robust discussion between the two departments. The LM team has the final say, so the onus is on the coaching group to convince them. Likely outcome is some kind of compromise - where the LM team commit to trying to secure Houston is the price fits within certain parameters, and if not then they will work to draft or recruit an alternative player who potentially brings some of the same skills.

Didn't Austin by and large build the bulldogs list? He helped get them a premiership. The coach needs to adapt to a more modern simplified game plan and delegate to assistant coaches accordingly. Let the list manager do his job without any quick fixes. Needs to play the kids that have earned their spot. Fancy Binns winning the VFL league best and fairest in his first season and not given an opportunity. It's quite sad and must be demoralising for the players.

 

[Soapy V]

I don't know yet if the lack of Bluemours is exciting or quite disturbing........

As I said, sadly the bullying of a few has ruined it for the many. So many in the know posters have been lost and it's extremely disappointing

 

[Juddrockz]

I don't know yet if the lack of Bluemours is exciting or quite disturbing........

Even the media has been pretty quiet today aswell.

 

[bradfisher14]

Didn't Austin by and large build the bulldogs list? He helped get them a premiership. The coach needs to adapt to a more modern simplified game plan and delegate to assistant coaches accordingly. Let the list manager do his job without any quick fixes. Needs to play the kids that have earned their spot. Fancy Binns winning the VFL league best and fairest in his first season and not given an opportunity. It's quite sad and must be demoralising for the players.

Tigers

 

[Coops93]

Hypothetical…..as a Carlton person..I want us to win a flag/s asap.
People on here say ‘we can’t get rid of this player’, but if we did & won a flag next year would you really care?
How upset would u be?
Team or player?
Personally I’d trade anyone if it meant we won a flag next year.

I think the issue that often comes up is a lot overrate our players and underrate external players, I think Houston has been a microcosm of that. There's been suggestions that we should pick Billy Wilson instead of trading in Houston! A 2 time AA with the no.1 rated kick in the game and people have said our half backs are just as good of kick so we don't need him etc.

Sure, there's conversations to be had about the value of trading in a 28 yr old HBF, but people get a bit silly when hyping up our players in comparison.

Happens every year with every trade candidate. I get it, we have an emotional investment on these guys because we love the team and therefor love the players and want all of them to be great, but it leads to some silly comparisons and down talking of trade candidates.

 

[Soapy V]

Didn't Austin by and large build the bulldogs list? He helped get them a premiership. The coach needs to adapt to a more modern simplified game plan and delegate to assistant coaches accordingly. Let the list manager do his job without any quick fixes. Needs to play the kids that have earned their spot. Fancy Binns winning the VFL league best and fairest in his first season and not given an opportunity. It's quite sad and must be demoralising for the players.

Yep. For all the discussion around recruits and the draft the biggest improvement, by a long way, in 2025 will come from Fitness, Improved game plan and playing the youth, if we can get these areas right

 

[Blue_Fusion]

SOS had his failures. I have known our midfield has problems for 3 seasons now. What has Austin done to fix that?

If it's the coach thinking he has a team and midfield good enough to win a flag he is as bad as Ratten was. That was one of the things that brought him undone IMO.

Is the coach not directing the recruiting team well enough or is it the recruiting team aren't that good?

2020: Zac Williams FA to repurpose him as a mid - said he was "the perfect fit" and spent 41 on Jack Carroll. Spent pick 8 on Adam Saad.

2021: George Hewett FA. Spent pick 6 on Adam Cerra.

2022: Blacres for a F3. Spent pick 11 on Ollie and spent 32 on Binns.

2023: Nothing.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Matt Korcheck came to us at the same time as Mason Cox came to Collingwood - at the time Matt was rated more highly by AFL insiders both athletically and skill wise than Mason Cox.

Development has been a huge issue for us going back 15 years - I thought that Luke Power and our creation of our Reserves side would improve our player development but the jury is still well and truly out.

Matt Korcheck is the development hill that you are prepared to die on? A bloke that was probably odds on to fail. I'd go as far to say that it's only because Mason Cox beat those odds that he's even remembered.

That's a bit weird.

 

[BigFrizz36]

2020: Zac Williams FA to repurpose him as a mid - said he was "the perfect fit" and spent 41 on Jack Carroll. Spent pick 8 on Adam Saad.

2021: George Hewett FA. Spent pick 6 on Adam Cerra.

2022: Blacres for a F3. Spent pick 11 on Ollie and spent 32 on Binns.

2023: Nothing.

Actually 2023 could be Billy Wilson in due course. Still a bit off but has shown he has some traits that would qualify him as a quick burst midfielder.

 

[carlton_99]

Actually 2023 could be Billy Wilson in due course. Still a bit off but has shown he has some traits that would qualify him as a quick burst midfielder.

Or Elijah Hollands

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Disposal efficiency is meaningless as a stat - any kick over 40m to a contest is counted as effective.

I don't think its meaningless at all fwiw. I'm simply stating, as i did in another post, 2 players with very, very similar numbers over the last four seasons, its interesting to me how one player is deemed garbage yet another is deemed a god like status. I find it amusing.

 

[Stamos]

I don't think its meaningless at all fwiw. I'm simply stating, as i did in another post, 2 players with very, very similar numbers over the last four seasons, its interesting to me how one player is deemed garbage yet another is deemed a god like status. I find it amusing.

It's pretty meaningless when you're using it to judge key defenders.
It is well down the list of things they need to be good at to be good at their job.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

I want to clarify this further: chase Isaac Cumming, and bare minimum make it so Port has to get ridiculous with their money... we should be able to afford him.

Houston for anything more than a pick in the 18-30 range is a waste of time when we have to continue developing our list.

This kind of thinking is peak Carlton supporter. You should rename your account to one of the following:

• ShillForVoss
• GhostOfElliot
• CashBagsMakeFlags

Congratulations on calling everyone else mad when you can't read what's being presented in front of you, and for agreeing to trading away two first round picks (this one in a very strong draft) for a 28 year old who has average pace for an AFL player, let alone a running defender.

Was all for drafting Houston as a rookie years ago, but this kind of assessment is over the top and ludicrous. He's not worth a first at this age, ever.

This is what pick 11 can genuinely put us in the frame for this year:



But I doubt you've spent the 2 minutes to go find out, and instead spend weeks on end throwing foolish pot shots at everyone else who has the audacity to use more than 20 words to communicate an idea. Put a pin in it.

Rarely agree with you Jim but this is one of those times.

Horton is exactly what we need.

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

He played 15 games this year? Often subbed out, didn't really have much impact apart from a select few games.

You're right that he has age on his side but should he request a trade to WC, I think we'll be lucky to get a pick in the 30's for him.

I guess time will tell...

Carroll kind of has that " we're going to regret trading him " feel about him for some reason. IMO anyway

 

[TrueQldBlue]

Carroll kind of has that " we're going to regret trading him " feel about him for some reason. IMO anyway

Nah

On CPH2135 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gbatman]

2020: Zac Williams FA to repurpose him as a mid - said he was "the perfect fit" and spent 41 on Jack Carroll. Spent pick 8 on Adam Saad.

2021: George Hewett FA. Spent pick 6 on Adam Cerra.

2022: Blacres for a F3. Spent pick 11 on Ollie and spent 32 on Binns.

2023: Nothing.

Are we just drafting the wrong types of onballers? None of them tick the box we need. I think Lord does in a lot of ways, but we dropped him which was f***ing stupid and puts a lot of doubt over our coaching group in my opinion.

Or maybe we aren't pushing hard enough to play quicker players in there? We could have played Carroll in the middle a lot more than we have Kennedy, Cerra and Hewett. It just seems we are pushing really hard to play the slower guys. We play them whenever and as much as we can yet we have avoided playing Carroll to the same extent we avoided playing Dow last season. We had to be forced into doing it.

 

[JustaBattler]

Are we just drafting the wrong types of onballers? None of them tick the box we need. I think Lord does in a lot of ways, but we dropped him which was f***ing stupid and puts a lot of doubt over our coaching group in my opinion.

Or maybe we aren't pushing hard enough to play quicker players in there? We could have played Carroll in the middle a lot more than we have Kennedy, Cerra and Hewett. It just seems we are pushing really hard to play the slower guys. We play them whenever and as much as we can yet we have avoided playing Carroll to the same extent we avoided playing Dow last season. We had to be forced into doing it.

Lord is no faster than Kennedy or Hewett and cant play more than 60-% game time yet...-btw Kennedy has barely featured in the midfield all year anyway. Suggesting Lord or Carroll is faster than Cerra is just reaching.

PS I like Lord.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I want to clarify this further: chase Isaac Cumming, and bare minimum make it so Port has to get ridiculous with their money... we should be able to afford him.

Houston for anything more than a pick in the 18-30 range is a waste of time when we have to continue developing our list.

This kind of thinking is peak Carlton supporter. You should rename your account to one of the following:

• ShillForVoss
• GhostOfElliot
• CashBagsMakeFlags

Congratulations on calling everyone else mad when you can't read what's being presented in front of you, and for agreeing to trading away two first round picks (this one in a very strong draft) for a 28 year old who has average pace for an AFL player, let alone a running defender.

Was all for drafting Houston as a rookie years ago, but this kind of assessment is over the top and ludicrous. He's not worth a first at this age, ever.

This is what pick 11 can genuinely put us in the frame for this year:



But I doubt you've spent the 2 minutes to go find out, and instead spend weeks on end throwing foolish pot shots at everyone else who has the audacity to use more than 20 words to communicate an idea. Put a pin in it.

Love the way Hotton always looks for a team mate in better positions and doesn't hesitate.
It's rare for a smallish forward not to take the selfish option...pick him Curly.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

I don't know yet if the lack of Bluemours is exciting or quite disturbing........

We need a genuine ITK to return.

 

[BigFrizz36]

I don't think its meaningless at all fwiw. I'm simply stating, as i did in another post, 2 players with very, very similar numbers over the last four seasons, its interesting to me how one player is deemed garbage yet another is deemed a god like status. I find it amusing.

That's because you have cherry picked a few stats to try and make your case. Maybe add a few more like % of one on one losses and the quality of opposition that Weitering plays against versus that of Laverde and you'll get more of an idea as to why StKilda offered Weitering a huge $1.5 mill a year contract and why Laverde isn't being offered a contract extension by his current club.

 

[carlton_99]

I don't think its meaningless at all fwiw. I'm simply stating, as i did in another post, 2 players with very, very similar numbers over the last four seasons, its interesting to me how one player is deemed garbage yet another is deemed a god like status. I find it amusing.

Because numbers never give you the full picture especially at a position like key defender. McKay and Laverde couldn't tie Weitering's shoes. I don't even think * fans would disagree with that