Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[TheCatStevensExperience]

It seems there was a surplus this year as they picked 3 of them, and left out Blakey and a player like Vlastuin(CD rate his season higher than Stewart's) did not even make the squad. There are others around, Luke Ryan, Hayden Young, Ryan Burton, Jordan Ridley, Redman, Lever, Ballard, Broad, to name a few off the top of my head who were high int he ratings this season.

Which one are you going to choose?




Vlaustin 2023 stat rankings:


I assume they don't include a stat if the player isn't top 20.


Stewart stat rankings:

 

[Caligo]

Probably because there is a dearth of medium sized defenders in the game right now and has been for over 10 years now.

Stewart is a bit lucky in that regard..

I am not sure that is true. I think Stewart perhaps has been just lucky to get selected ahead of them in a surprising number of years. Sicily from my club easily could have taken a few of those jackets, and almost every other team in the league has a similar player.

Small defender is the same. My club has hardwick. Yours has Newman. Either easily could have been AA, along with a dozen others spread over many clubs.

I don't think it is a lack of quality mid sized defenders though.

 

[TheCatStevensExperience]

Conversely, 2+ Norm Smith Medals is undeniable in relation to a player's greatness.

Martin
McLeod
Hodge
Ayres

Undoubtedly the top 4 players in the last 40 years.

Have there been any arguments about the illegitimacy of AA nominations because it's done in part by the media? Cos I have news for fans of the Norm Smith indicator....

 

[Caligo]

well you kinda have to make a grand final and win one, and you have only done that 2 times since 1958, so that is kinda the problem

If you are Geelong you don't even have to win to get a NS!

 

[TheCatStevensExperience]

I am not sure that is true. I think Stewart perhaps has been just lucky to get selected ahead of them in a surprising number of years. Sicily from my club easily could have taken a few of those jackets, and almost every other team in the league has a similar player.

Small defender is the same. My club has hardwick. Yours has Newman. Either easily could have been AA, along with a dozen others spread over many clubs.

I don't think it is a lack of quality mid sized defenders though.

Sicily, I agree, is overlooked too often. Incredible player.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Conversely, 2+ Norm Smith Medals is undeniable in relation to a player's greatness.

Martin
McLeod
Hodge
Ayres

Undoubtedly the top 4 players in the last 40 years.

Say what you want about Norm Smith Medals. Just make sure you pronounce on Dustin Martin kicking 8 less goals than the whole opposition teams across his 3 Grand Finals. Whilst playing mainly midfield. With no joe the gooses. And not including goal assists, he got 5 of those as well. Just let's hear what you have to say about those facts Fajjy Wajj.

But but but Pendlebury was 4th best player in a Grand Final once, absolutely dominated chip kick receives.

 

[TheCatStevensExperience]

well you kinda have to make a grand final and win one, and you have only done that 2 times since 1958, so that is kinda the problem

Weird how Nathan Buckley is a Norm Smith medallist then, isn't it?

 

[Fadge]

If you are Geelong you don't even have to win to get a NS!

Geelong players can win Norm Smith Medals without even playing in the Grand Final.

I've just backed Jeremy Cameron for this year's Normie.

 

[Caligo]

Sicily, I agree, is overlooked too often. Incredible player.

I feel that way as a biased Hawk, but Stewart was arguably slightly better in quite a few seasons when they were both elite.

I kinda felt like maybe the selectors didn't want two very similar players, but 2023 proves me wrong yet again. Both get their jackets.

 

[TheCatStevensExperience]

Richmond fans taking the return to "Richmondy" service well, judging by the replies.

 

[HarryBeef]

Patrick Dangerfield has 8 All Australian jumpers Dusty has 4, so he is twice as good as Dustin Martin

Agreed

 

[TheCatStevensExperience]

Patrick Dangerfield has 8 All Australian jumpers Dusty has 4, so he is twice as good as Dustin Martin

The most accurate thing posted by a Richmond supporter ever

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Which one are you going to choose?

View attachment 1791267


Vlaustin 2023 stat rankings:

View attachment 1791269
I assume they don't include a stat if the player isn't top 20.


Stewart stat rankings:

View attachment 1791271

I'm starting from these ratings below and asking the questions from there tbh. The first list does not include key defenders, the second list does. Stewart essentially rates 5th or 6th amongst medium defenders and 10th-12th for defenders overall depending how many games you want a player to have played to be in consideration:

 

[Roby]

So apart from Geelong fans, I see a lot Collingwood and Carlton fans. Dusty has done something, none of those clubs have ever achieved: win 3 Norm Smiths in four years.

You have to COMBINE the achievements of all three clubs. They collectively achieved Norm Smiths in 1987, 1988, 1990.

Let's see if these three clubs can emulate Dusty again, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Noidnadroj]

That's because he knew he didn't deserve it, just like Dusty in 2017 and 2019, who selfishly hung on to his

He gave his first Norm Smith to Will Murray, the quadriplegic son of Richmond’s mindfulness coach, Emma Murray:

Dustin Martin gives his Grand Final medal to young quadriplegic fan

Dustin Martin has shown that below the rugged exterior of sleeve and neck tattoos and beneath his immense and perhaps unmatched talent beats an extremely kind heart.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Noidnadroj]

This thread gets more ridiculous by the day. A bloke who has had 4 good seasons at most is not close to being the GOAT. The desperation by Tigers fans is getting rather sad to be honest.

I’m just doing the maths… he has 200+ Brownlow votes … nah, something doesn’t add up.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Fadge]

I'm starting from these ratings below and asking the questions from there tbh. The first list does not include key defenders, the second list does. Stewart essentially rates 5th or 6th amongst medium defenders and 10th-12th for defenders overall depending how many games you want a player to have played to be in consideration:

View attachment 1791275

View attachment 1791277

Happy to take Trey Ruscoe as the #3 ranked defender in the competition.

Do you even stop to think before you post this drivel?

 

[TheCatStevensExperience]

So apart from Geelong fans, I see a lot Collingwood and Carlton fans. Dusty has done something, none of those clubs have ever achieved: win 3 Norm Smiths in four years.

You have to COMBINE the achievements of all three clubs. They collectively achieved Norm Smiths in 1987, 1988, 1990.

Let's see if these three clubs can emulate Dusty again, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Er, no other club has ever achieved that. It's not just Carlton, Geelong and Collingwood.

If by "emulate Dusty" you mean "Be good for 4 years then do little else of significance", then Collingwood did that in the late 2000s.

I'm starting from these ratings below and asking the questions from there tbh. The first list does not include key defenders, the second list does. Stewart essentially rates 5th or 6th amongst medium defenders and 10th-12th for defenders overall depending how many games you want a player to have played to be in consideration:

View attachment 1791275

View attachment 1791277

Right, so magic beans rankings from Champion Data (which we'll never know the meat of) vs, ya know....the stats and the people selectors went with.

Additionally, players need to play a minimum number of games to be in AA contention so "how many games" is important.

 

[Roby]

Er, no other club has ever achieved that. It's not just Carlton, Geelong and Collingwood.

If by "emulate Dusty" you mean "Be good for 4 years then do little else of significance", then Collingwood did that in the late 2000s.




Right, so magic beans rankings from Champion Data (which we'll never know the meat of) vs, ya know....the stats and the people selectors went with.

What?

Lol.

Edit. No surprise you got a like from the most illogical poster in this forum, Fudge. But Hawthorn won 3 norm smiths not long ago.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Er, no other club has ever achieved that. It's not just Carlton, Geelong and Collingwood.

If by "emulate Dusty" you mean "Be good for 4 years then do little else of significance", then Collingwood did that in the late 2000s.




Right, so magic beans rankings from Champion Data (which we'll never know the meat of) vs, ya know....the stats and the people selectors went with.

You are literally producing segments of CD stats to support your position then telling us their ratings based on ALL of the data they collect is not not credible.

Whatever their ratings are, they are objective.

 

[Felis catus nigrans]

Stewart is a tremendous player, but he is more like about the 100th best AFL player this century, and I am pretty sure he is number 1 for AA selections per season played. So he is one of many anomalies the AA process throws up. But he is a very major anomaly. His finals record is not especially great, which is another pointer as to where he really sits in the overall scheme of things.

I have seen him compete for the ball against Dusty on plenty of occasions, and Dusty normally has his measure. There is something seriously wrong when Stewart is AA in over 70% of his seasons and Dusty is AA in about 40% of his seasons from the same age.

Stewart doesn’t have to play Dusty each week and most teams don’t play Richmond’s style (because without Dusty it’s a lot lower percentage).

Stewart just goes around spoiling other teams fun.

If your argument is that AA isn’t a great measure when it comes to a GOAT argument then I think that’s pretty evident.

But Stewart is good value for his AA blazers.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Happy to take Trey Ruscoe as the #3 ranked defender in the competition.

Do you even stop to think before you post this drivel?

I didn't include Ruscoe because he played only one game. So you think you have found something to undermine their credibility by locating a player who played one single game in defence and had a high rating match. Or maybe you don't think that and you are trolling. Who cares, it means nothing.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

So apart from Geelong fans, I see a lot Collingwood and Carlton fans. Dusty has done something, none of those clubs have ever achieved: win 3 Norm Smiths in four years.

You have to COMBINE the achievements of all three clubs. They collectively achieved Norm Smiths in 1987, 1988, 1990.

Let's see if these three clubs can emulate Dusty again, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

1988

Are you really a Hawthorn supporter or just another nuffie Tiger in disguise?

 

[TheCatStevensExperience]

You are literally producing segments of CD stats to support your position then telling us their ratings based on ALL of the data they collect is not not credible.

Whatever their ratings are, they are objective.

And the ones I posted are objective, measurable stats. Who's to know if CD come up with some bizarre process for assigning quality of X, Y or Z based on the team played or whether it's Tuesday or whatever else - they are not definitively objective because we don't know what they are.

We can both see the stats in the examples I have shown. Neither of us can know what goes into the CD ranking.

 

[Fadge]

Edit. No surprise you got a like from the most illogical poster in this forum, Fudge.

Woohoo!

Another badge of honour for me!