Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[South of the Yarra]

Neither Martin or KB come close to Gordon Coventry’s Finals Record.

111 goals in finals

• 5 Premierships
• 9 goals in a Grand Final
• 7 goals in a Grand final
• 66% of the goals in another Grand Final including doubling the opposition Goal Tally
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Preliminary Final
• 7 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 6 in a Preliminary Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 4 in a Preliminary Final
• 4 in a Grand Final
• 6 in a Semi Final
• 7 in a Prelim Final

 

[Sirlemsip]

You said he had one amazing season and many ‘good’ seasons.

History tells you a single season averaging 24 and 1.2 is rarely done. Martin averaged that over a decade. So I was addressing the falsehood that Martin wasn’t ultra consistent and elite for a very long time … and uber elite from 2016-2020.

He had one year that was arguably as good as anyone ever, and another 8-9 x seasons that were absolutely elite - not ‘best ever’, but elite nonetheless. You don’t average 24+ and 1.2+, get 200+ Brownlow votes and finish top-3 in the B&F nine times if you’re not consistently elite.



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If it is about the semantics of the word I chose - then yes, his other seasons were 'great' seasons (not just 'good').

it still doesn't change the fact that many other players around the same time also had 'greater' seasons in every year except 2017. Often, they were also considered more consistent players as well.

You have picked 'Disposals and goals per game' as your metric, but those aren't the only things that clubs and supporters value. What about contested marks? Tackles? Leadership?

In my view (and I suspect that of many others) there are a bunch of players that you can group together as the elite players of the competition during Dusty's career.

GAJ and Buddy are on a level of their own.
Then in the next rung down are all of: Judd, Dusty, Fyfe, Dangerfield and Neale.
Depending how long you want to make that list, and how far back you want to go, you could add a bunch more: Pendlebury, Goodes, Bontempelli, Cripps, Black, Voss, Buckley etc etc.

 

[TCS]

Neither Martin or KB come close to Gordon Coventry’s Finals Record.

111 goals in finals

• 5 Premierships
• 9 goals in a Grand Final
• 7 goals in a Grand final
• 66% of the goals in another Grand Final including doubling the opposition Goal Tally
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Preliminary Final
• 7 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 6 in a Preliminary Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 4 in a Preliminary Final
• 4 in a Grand Final
• 6 in a Semi Final
• 7 in a Prelim Final

What can you tell us about the level of Coventry's finals opponents?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Whats K.Bs finals stats. I'm not old enough to remember his early days but his final few years were pretty good and have read if the norm smith was around earlier he would probably won a few

KB finals averaged just under 22 disposals, 2.3 goals.

Grand Finals he averaged 22.5 disposals, 2.1 goals.

Matthews corresonding figures were:

All finals 20 disposals, 2.5 goals.

Grand Finals he averaged just under 20 disposals and 2.4 goals.


I saw loads of both of these players and these stats probably reflect their finals performances fairly. Bartlett got about 10% more disposals, Matthews had about 10% more scoreboard impact. Bartlett imo can be a bit under-rated in some circles but to my way of thinking Matthews was a better player. Neither would have had a significant amount of goal assists, certainly not near as many as someone like Dusty, who averaged over 1.1 per final, which is really high.

When you consider goals + assists & then adjust for the sigificantly lower scoring in Dusty's finals, I would think Dusty would shade Matthews for scoreboard impact if anything(just in finals.) And then if you also adjusted disposals to the era, Dusty is probably also shading Matthews.

In Grand Finals there isn't anyone who can match Dusty, as has been said.

Where Matthews elevates himself above Dusty statistically is in kicking loads of goals in home & away matches.

So when comparing Dusty to any of these players I think it mainly comes down to whether you want the better home & away player(many more games of much lesser importance) or finals(much fewer games but of much greater importance.)

 

[South of the Yarra]

What can you tell us about the level of Coventry's finals opponents?

I can tell you he was better than everyone else that played against them. Significantly.

 

[Sirlemsip]

So when comparing Dusty to any of these players I think it mainly comes down to whether you want the better home & away player(many more game of much lesser importance) or finals(much fewer games but of much greater importance.)

You don't make finals without a good home & away season.

That is why you need to look at overall performance in both.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Neither Martin or KB come close to Gordon Coventry’s Finals Record.

111 goals in finals

• 5 Premierships
• 9 goals in a Grand Final
• 7 goals in a Grand final
• 66% of the goals in another Grand Final including doubling the opposition Goal Tally
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Preliminary Final
• 7 in a Semi Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 6 in a Preliminary Final
• 5 in a Semi Final
• 4 in a Preliminary Final
• 4 in a Grand Final
• 6 in a Semi Final
• 7 in a Prelim Final

Coventry played 31 finals for a goals average of 3.58, against his H&A average of 4.32, so a decline of 17%. His GF goal average was 3.56, so slightly down again.

KB’s finals goal average was 2.30 v 1.90 H&A, so a 21% bump. His GF goal average was 2.14 , again above H&A.

Martin’s disposal average was similar, but his goal and Goal assist average in finals was 2.82 v 1.80 H&A, so a 57% jump (goals only was 1.69 v 1.09 so a 55% jump). His GF average was 5.0, so a 277% jump (goals only was 3.33 v 1.09 so a 306% jump)

So Coventry was an inferior performer in finals than H&A, KB was a superior performer, and Martin … well …. off the charts.


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[Meteoric Rise]

You don't make finals without a good home & away season.

That is why you need to look at overall performance in both.

Equally, there are a lot of home & away games where the presence or absence of a gun player would not matter to the result. This is not as true for finals which tend to be played between more evenly matched teams.

 

[Sirlemsip]

Equally, there are a lot of home & away games where the presence or absence of a gun player would not matter to the result. This is not as true for finals which tend to be played between more evenly matched teams.

Sure. Agree.

Dusty still isn't the GOAT though.

 

[TCS]

Longevity is underrated and GAJ had that in spades compared with Dusty

Yes, he has Dustin covered where longevity is concerned, can't argue against that.

Dusty's GF were superior.

And that's Dustin playing a special role in the greatest system AFL football has ever seen. Imagine what he could've did if he played a more selfish game?

GAJ's best GF was the 2008 GF.

That was the GF where the Geelong players made it about themselves. 2007 was for the fans, 2008 was supposed to be for the players. So Gary jnr's 38 & 2 was a selfish effort that didn't go towards winning the flag.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Sure. Agree.

Dusty still isn't the GOAT though.

I am not saying he is. Just that he has some unique selling points in the argument - and they are very desirable ones at that.

I started watching footy in the 70's. I have never seen or heard of any player tearing final after final apart over a 4 year period the way Dusty did. Before I have seen one player have a great finals series, or maybe recurring brilliance in a couple of GF's(Hodge, Jarman, Ayres.) But never seen another player do what Dusty did - basically match or better the players with the biggest finals scoreboard impact of the era while only spending a third of his time forward - and no Joe the Gooses, downfield frees, 50m penalty gifts, soft free kicks or uncontested chest marks amongst that - just about all from winning contests and brilliant finishes. All this was done while he was also carrying a big load in the midfield.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yes, he has Dustin covered where longevity is concerned, can't argue against that.

And that's Dustin playing a special role in the greatest system AFL football has ever seen. Imagine what he could've did if he played a more selfish game?

That was the GF where the Geelong players made it about themselves. 2007 was for the fans, 2008 was supposed to be for the players. So Gary jnr's 38 & 2 was a selfish effort that didn't go towards winning the flag.

Also, when you look at the 2 goals - 1 from a double 50m penalty, the other from a Joe the Goose he just needed to convert from 25m under no physical pressure.

 

[Xtreme]

Retired as the greatest player in the AFL era OF ALL TIME. Nobody else matches him, not even the "son of god" could sweep every award available in a single season.

When Richmond needed a lift Dusty delivered and more.

 

[Captain_Bender]

In fact, the 1980's finals KB went absolutely insane:
QF: 22 disposals, 6 goals
SF: 17 disposals, 8 goals
GF: 21 disposals, 7 goals

All at the ripe young age of 33

 

[Sttew]

I am not saying he is. Just that he has some unique selling points in the argument - and they are very desirable ones at that.

I started watching footy in the 70's. I have never seen or heard of any player tearing final after final apart over a 4 year period the way Dusty did. Before I have seen one player have a great finals series, or maybe recurring brilliance in a couple of GF's(Hodge, Jarman, Ayres.) But never seen another player do what Dusty did - basically match or better the players with the biggest finals scoreboard impact of the era while only spending a third of his time forward - and no Joe the Gooses, downfield frees, 50m penalty gifts, soft free kicks or uncontested chest marks amongst that - just about all from winning contests and brilliant finishes. All this was done while he was also carrying a big load in the midfield.

You've told us this 692 times!

 

[South of the Yarra]

Coventry played 31 finals for a goals average of 3.58, against his H&A average of 4.32, so a decline of 17%. His GF goal average was 3.56, so slightly down again.

KB’s finals goal average was 2.30 v 1.90 H&A, so a 21% bump. His GF goal average was 2.14 , again above H&A.

Martin’s disposal average was similar, but his goal and Goal assist average in finals was 2.82 v 1.80 H&A, so a 57% jump (goals only was 1.69 v 1.09 so a 55% jump). His GF average was 5.0, so a 277% jump (goals only was 3.33 v 1.09 so a 306% jump)

So Coventry was an inferior performer in finals than H&A, KB was a superior performer, and Martin … well …. off the charts.


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You might want to do a check of the weather and ground conditions etc in some of the games Coventry played in comparison to Martin in finals. Games where the weather was so bad only 3 goals were kicked. Coventry’s finals record stands alone.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yes, he has Dustin covered where longevity is concerned, can't argue against that.

And that's Dustin playing a special role in the greatest system AFL football has ever seen. Imagine what he could've did if he played a more selfish game?

That was the GF where the Geelong players made it about themselves. 2007 was for the fans, 2008 was supposed to be for the players. So Gary jnr's 38 & 2 was a selfish effort that didn't go towards winning the flag.

We keep hearing this from…. Well, you.

Was it the greatest system the game has ever seen?

The Cats system that operated from 07-11 had what was on paper one of the weakest forward lines of any triple premiership team in history if you look at the key forwards in it.

Mooney was a solid contributor, Hawkins was not a ‘good’ player until the end of 2011, Podsiadly was reasonable for a couple of seasons.

Our best forwards were two guys who averaged 20 touches a game for much of that period, along with a few smaller guys like Stokes and Byrnes, neither of whom were elite small forwards.

Yet we kicked scores and won by margins that none of the other dynasty teams did largely through often an entire swarm of players marching the ball upfield as quick as they could by hand and overlapping before the other team could react.

It’s defence went from being man on man based to having Harley, Scarlett, Milburn all zoning off at times while Egan (Scarlett as well to begin with) then Taylor took the main opposition forward, Enright and Wojscinski made rebounding an artform - the former of whom did so while locking down countless smaller forwards as well.

The word system seems to only be used when it suits certain people:

By all means Richmond’s system WAS outstanding. Everyone had a job to do based around a couple of genuine focal points in each line and a rigidly adhered-to gameplan that took a hell or a lot of beating.

Hawthorn had their cluster combined with their unsociable football, their defence built around one primary key man with Lake and then Frawley, Gibson zoning off, Hodge marshalling everything and distributing off the back to Mitchell etc in the middle and a fleet of forwards. That their personnel up forward was full of stars doesn’t mean it wasn’t still a system.

I wasn’t around to watch the hawks of the 80s but aside from being as hard as nails I’m sure they had a distinct style and system as well.


Just saying ‘because we were VERY system based means we had the greatest system of all’ is a very blanket statement.’

In fact, if the system was so good, wouldn’t it have outlasted the coach and the personnel who have since departed?

 

[Sttew]

Yes, he has Dustin covered where longevity is concerned, can't argue against that.

And that's Dustin playing a special role in the greatest system AFL football has ever seen. Imagine what he could've did if he played a more selfish game?

That was the GF where the Geelong players made it about themselves. 2007 was for the fans, 2008 was supposed to be for the players. So Gary jnr's 38 & 2 was a selfish effort that didn't go towards winning the flag.

I've started my stop watch....

 

[TCS]

Also, when you look at the 2 goals - 1 from a double 50m penalty, the other from a Joe the Goose he just eeded to convert from 25m under no physical pressure.

I don't remember his goals, but there you go. And when you consider that someone here said that Richmond's GF opponents were low level, Gary jnr's 38 & 2 was achieved whilst playing for by far the best team of the 2008 season, and his team still lost.

 

[Mr Meow]

I've started my stop watch....

Pretty interesting what MR gets away with, in that this was always going to lead to that other troll creating a burner account, and the same old Richmond heads piling in with their insecure and laughable Ablett bashing.

All because his Pendlebury trolling was called out for what it was.

Fragile ego.

 

[TCS]

Was it the greatest system the game has ever seen?

Yes.

The Cats system that operated from 07-11 had what was on paper one of the weakest forward lines of any triple premiership team in history if you look at the key forwards in it.

It's interesting that most people believe that the midfield battle is where the game is won, so why bring up the forward line? Is it to draw attention to your potent midfield?

Anyway, our midfield was not known for winning clearances and having some players collecting 40 possies a weak, all that speaks to the greatest system that the AFL has ever seen, the Caracella system!

Our forward line in 2017 was Reiwoldt.

 

[TCS]

and the same old Richmond heads piling in with their insecure and laughable Ablett bashing.

I believe my comment about Gary jnr's 38 & 2 in the 2008 GF are more than fair.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

You might want to do a check of the weather and ground conditions etc in some of the games Coventry played in comparison to Martin in finals. Games where the weather was so bad only 3 goals were kicked. Coventry’s finals record stands alone.

There was an average of about 21 goals kicked in the finals Coventry played. Coventry averaged 3.6 per final playing 100% full forward.

There were an average of around 23 goals scored in the finals Dustin Martin played in. Dusty scored or assisted 2.8 per final - whilst only playing around 30-35% forward, almost none of that at full forward.

Those are the facts.

 

[Tiger2709]

Dusty was a great finals player, no doubt.

He had three fantastic GF performances, but even Richmond supporters would agree that the overall quality of opponents was... low.

Anyway, you agree with my point - as a Richmond supporter you rank Dusty above GAJ.

Let's see what some other neutrals think.

We went in as underdogs in all bar the Giants game and Adelaide were considered a very strong side that year but of course they all appeared lacking once we smashed them

I rank Dusty's efforts to help his team win, above Gaz's personal achievements every day of the week, one is a one club player that helped win 3 flags off his own back, while knocking back large offers to go elsewhere, the other chose money over his team, simple decision for me no matter which club I supported, Dusty is the man.

 

[Tiger2709]

the same old Richmond heads piling in with their insecure and laughable Ablett bashing.

Lol you've posted 765 times in a Dustin Martin thread, who is insecure?



the same old Geelong heads piling in with their insecure and laughable Dusty bashing.