Official Club Stuff Carlton Academy - Next Gen & Father/Son/Daughter Discussion

[Jimmae]

That's a bit of a laugh. Apart from point 3 (fine, take an average over a few days/nights if you really want to), but if you cannot accurately measure height due to points 1 or 2, find a new job.

I'm suggesting that the players and stewards often don't give enough of a shit.

3 cms here and there isn't going to make or break a player. They'd be more focused on measurement techniques to assess current level of flexibility, or to get the correct shoe fit.

 

[Coops93]

it's not just AFL, most sports around the world add a KG here or a CM there to player profiles. Not sure what the end goal is but it happens.

The NFL sometimes even lower players weights, I remember reading/listening to a podcast with a former Nose Tackle (Probably the biggest players in the NFL) and he said that his listed weight was something like 315lbs but in reality he was easily over 340 most of his career - in his words anyway. I guess something that drastic could be gamesmanship, but everyone knew it was obviously BS just by looking at him, so ultimately what's the point if no ones falling for it anyway?

 

[BlueJet]

What’s the incentive to lie with a players height?

Get out the tape, measure the height, write it down.

What’s the issue?

Ego, perceived draftability etc come into play. Regional Managers obviously have a vested interest in maximising the numbers selected amongst their cohort.
Either way, I certainly don't take listed heights as gospel.

 

[Red_man2008]

Because he’s indigenous, as a Carlton fan, I’m not sure how you aren’t aware of this.

Im aware he’s indigenous. Not all indigenous players go to a NGA. he is exactly the player that shouldn’t be on one.

 

[sweethoney]

Im aware he’s indigenous. Not all indigenous players go to a NGA. he is exactly the player that shouldn’t be on one.

I still don’t understand how Jesse Motlop was one too

 

[DangerousD]

I still don’t understand how Jesse Motlop was one too

I’m not sure what you two are missing. Motlop is indigenous and lived within Fremantles zone.

Being Indigenous makes him eligible

 

[DangerousD]

Im aware he’s indigenous. Not all indigenous players go to a NGA. he is exactly the player that shouldn’t be on one.

Which ones don’t?

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Lots of inconsistency of measurements in footy then and now. He and his dad probably have above average reach for their respective heights, but Ang Christou was a legit 1.9 m player, with Kouta being shorter than him (listed as 188 through to 191 over his career).

Ang stood taller to Glenn then than his son does now, so I'd go so far as to say Glenn is 183ish. Archi is probably 187-188.

This is all fairly marginal stuff as his leap, reach, raw acceleration, and his endurance in order to mark and pressure are of far more overall importance.

He'd play like a medium forward, and despite his craft, his pressure and defensive game would need a lot of work. Further to that, he's not going to blow anyone away on the lead with his pace.

Different position to Lemmey, and we're probably set to lose Crocker and Cahill at the end of this season. He'd be arguably be a cheaper alternative to either.

Remember that all VFL teams have salary caps, and I'm not sure the standalone clubs necessarily have enough wiggle room to keep everyone happy, it's more about getting regular games.

It's all conjecture at best but the only shots I could find of the players together belies your theory. Glenn could very well have been a fraction shorter than listed but that still says little about Archi's height. Anyway, you at least have a point about one thing; invite him over to the VFL side and see how he goes.

 

[sweethoney]

I’m not sure what you two are missing. Motlop is indigenous and lived within Fremantles zone.

Being Indigenous makes him eligible

So every indigenous person qualifies as a nga? Even if there fathers qualify them as father sons or are premiership players and so on?

 

[Cringle]

I also thought the idea of NGA was to incentivise finding hidden talent that may not have otherwise considered a realistic career in AFL.

Whereas, although Motlop and Walker’s son are indigenous, it’s reasonable to believe that they would have always at least considered the possibility.

Perhaps the NGA should be null and void if the prospect is already apart of a father-son academy.

Would make a little more… sense.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I also thought the idea of NGA was to incentivise finding hidden talent that may not have otherwise considered a realistic career in AFL.

Whereas, although Motlop and Walker’s son are indigenous, it’s reasonable to believe that they would have always at least considered the possibility.

Perhaps the NGA should be null and void if the prospect is already apart of a father-son academy.

Would make a little more… sense.

I'm sure this was the way it started. It was designed to pick up kids who might otherwise have chosen other sports.

Now, you just have to be indigenous or TSI, or have one parent born overseas, be 12-16 years old and live in the region. You don't have to be a latecomer to the sport or considered more likely to be lost to the sport.

I assume Carlton wanted the smaller region they got because of a concentration of European kids. I say that having not lived in Melbourne since I was a kid in 1980, so I really have no knowledge at all. I'm not sure there are an awful lot of indigenous kids living in our region but I could be wrong. Does anybody have any idea of the demographics in our NGA area? How many junior football clubs? How much population compared to other teams NGA areas?

We're certainly not harvesting this area very much.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Carlton’s zone is incredibly multicultural, and football heartland.

It beggars belief we’ve got 2 bits of sweet fa out of it, can only be because we put practically zero effort into harvesting talent from there.


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[DangerousD]

I'm sure this was the way it started. It was designed to pick up kids who might otherwise have chosen other sports.

Now, you just have to be indigenous or TSI, or have one parent born overseas, be 12-16 years old and live in the region. You don't have to be a latecomer to the sport or considered more likely to be lost to the sport.

I assume Carlton wanted the smaller region they got because of a concentration of European kids. I say that having not lived in Melbourne since I was a kid in 1980, so I really have no knowledge at all. I'm not sure there are an awful lot of indigenous kids living in our region but I could be wrong. Does anybody have any idea of the demographics in our NGA area? How many junior football clubs? How much population compared to other teams NGA areas?

We're certainly not harvesting this area very much.

Hi ODN I live in our zone and have for the last 8 years, Darebin is listed as having the largest metropolitan population of indigenous people, which isn’t a huge amount as more than half of the states 48,000 indigenous people live in rural areas.

Seperate from this I can tell you our zone is very multicultural, taking in the Northern Knights zone which includes suburbs like Richmond, Collingwood, Fitzroy, Clifton Hill, Abbotsford, Notthcote, Thornbury, Preston, Reservoir, Heidelberg, Carlton and more, our zones population is about 500,000

The NGA criteria focuses mainly on indigenous, Asian and African kids,

 

[DangerousD]

Carlton’s zone is incredibly multicultural, and football heartland.

It beggars belief we’ve got 2 bits of sweet fa out of it, can only be because we put practically zero effort into harvesting talent from there.


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Not that simple, Northern Knights have been poor for years, if the kids they choose don’t qualify there’s not much we can do.

Then there is the question, how much time and effort do you put in to a program that says you can’t take the kids who are very good? You can only take players after pick 40.

 

[Revenant1965]

Not that simple, Northern Knights have been poor for years, if the kids they choose don’t qualify there’s not much we can do.

Then there is the question, how much time and effort do you put in to a program that says you can’t take the kids who are very good? You can only take players after pick 40.

Just a random thought... one would hope we'd invest back into the community irrespective of draft potential to support young people and grow support for AFL/Carlton... and I'm not saying we're not doing this either... there are many more Acadamy players across the country that can ever get drafted, and I'd like to think it's about investing in the wider footy community as well as looking for potential talent.

 

[DangerousD]

Just a random thought... one would hope we'd invest back into the community irrespective of draft potential to support young people and grow support for AFL/Carlton... and I'm not saying we're not doing this either... there are many more Acadamy players across the country that can ever get drafted, and I'd like to think it's about investing in the wider footy community as well as looking for potential talent.

Kind of related, a friend of mine has friends in the Danniher squad (Essendon), a squad for kids transitioning to Calder Cannons.

The people there aren’t happy with who Calder are selecting, so Essendon are trying to have more involvement with how Calder run and develop their squads.

There has been a lot of talk the last few years in regards to how Australia can have a very large Indian, Sri Lankan, Pakistani, Afghani and Nepalese population, yet have barely any players from these backgrounds even playing state cricket.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

I'm sure this was the way it started. It was designed to pick up kids who might otherwise have chosen other sports.

Now, you just have to be indigenous or TSI, or have one parent born overseas, be 12-16 years old and live in the region. You don't have to be a latecomer to the sport or considered more likely to be lost to the sport.

I assume Carlton wanted the smaller region they got because of a concentration of European kids. I say that having not lived in Melbourne since I was a kid in 1980, so I really have no knowledge at all. I'm not sure there are an awful lot of indigenous kids living in our region but I could be wrong. Does anybody have any idea of the demographics in our NGA area? How many junior football clubs? How much population compared to other teams NGA areas?

We're certainly not harvesting this area very much.

And like every rule or initiative the AFL implement, clubs ultimately find ways to exploit it to their advantage.

The latest is North applying to the AFL to have Ryley Sanders included in their NGA in order to receive concessions in the upcoming draft.

"The AFL is weighing up whether one of Tasmania’s brightest young talents is eligible to join North Melbourne’s Next Generation Academy less than nine months from this year’s draft.

It’s understood the approach has previously been knocked back due to a purported issue around Sanders’ eligibility.
But North has not given up on hope on adding Sanders to the club’s academy. It’s understood the matter remains before the AFL’s NGA committee, who will weigh up whether Sanders is eligible to join."

CODE Sports

CODE Sports

www.codesports.com.au

Chances are it won't lead to anything as he's a potential top 10 draft prospect - but apparently there are other clubs pretty pished off with the request. Given NGAs were introduced in back 2015 as a means to encourage multicultural and First Nations players to take up football, this seems like an absolute rort.

 

[Les Grossman playaaaa]

Not that simple, Northern Knights have been poor for years, if the kids they choose don’t qualify there’s not much we can do.

Then there is the question, how much time and effort do you put in to a program that says you can’t take the kids who are very good? You can only take players after pick 40.

I had two boys in the NFNL rep squads, who were both good, but not as good as other kids that didn't make it. It was their height that got them selected. A lot of shorter kids in the northern region, so when someone with a bit of height and ability comes along, they seem to get looked at first. The league loses a lot of good players in U16/U17 because they feel they won't be looked at because they're not 6 foot plus.

NFNL did at one stage push to see if kids had either one or both parents from overseas or first Australian, however, not many indigenous kids playing (and some not willing to acknowledge they were due to racism within clubs/league), and those kids with parents from overseas were usually not that good or a very raw talent that will take longer to come on i.e Akuei.

Akuei went to school with my boys and a lot of people were surprised when he was selected because he didn't appear capable enough. However, with the right environment and good coaches/people around him, as well as his own determination, he's come a long way. I am very happy for him and wish him every success with the opportunity he's been presented.

 

[Arr0w]

I also live in one of our zones, Northcote and while there are a reasonable strong number of indigenous players, it's hard to keep them interested, due to many factors, predominantly family support, my experiences any way

About a decade ago, one under18 kid was very talented, moreso than 5 of our metro kids (2 AIS, 1 drafted). I or an assistant would pick him up for training and or gameday, but he was embarrassed by the situation, quiet respectfully kid

At times he would rip games apart, other times he looked spent quite early in a game. Digging deeper we discovered that after school he would also work nights to support his family.

We tried helping through funding, club or otherwise, but that embarrassed him further.

I know there is more support these days, but it's still difficult to keep these type of kids involved.

Many gifted footballers don't get enough support as juniors, it's a bloody shame

 

[Juddernaut08]

I also live in one of our zones, Northcote and while there are a reasonable strong number of indigenous players, it's hard to keep them interested, due to many factors, predominantly family support, my experiences any way

About a decade ago, one under18 kid was very talented, moreso than 5 of our metro kids (2 AIS, 1 drafted). I or an assistant would pick him up for training and or gameday, but he was embarrassed by the situation, quiet respectfully kid

At times he would rip games apart, other times he looked spent quite early in a game. Digging deeper we discovered that after school he would also work nights to support his family.

We tried helping through funding, club or otherwise, but that embarrassed him further.

I know there is more support these days, but it's still difficult to keep these type of kids involved.

Many gifted footballers don't get enough support as juniors, it's a bloody shame

It's a great point.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

Hi ODN I live in our zone and have for the last 8 years, Darebin is listed as having the largest metropolitan population of indigenous people, which isn’t a huge amount as more than half of the states 48,000 indigenous people live in rural areas.

Seperate from this I can tell you our zone is very multicultural, taking in the Northern Knights zone which includes suburbs like Richmond, Collingwood, Fitzroy, Clifton Hill, Abbotsford, Notthcote, Thornbury, Preston, Reservoir, Heidelberg, Carlton and more, our zones population is about 500,000

The NGA criteria focuses mainly on indigenous, Asian and African kids,

These suburbs aren't really multicultural anymore and the demographic is overwhelmingly becoming either wealthy and old, or wealthy with very young kids, neither of which is particularly helpful for these purposes. Then , lots of the kids who are in the correct age bracket attend private schools. Thornbury heading in same direction. It's a terrible area to be given for these purposes imo. Amazing place to live though!

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Kind of related, a friend of mine has friends in the Danniher squad (Essendon), a squad for kids transitioning to Calder Cannons.

The people there aren’t happy with who Calder are selecting, so Essendon are trying to have more involvement with how Calder run and develop their squads.

There has been a lot of talk the last few years in regards to how Australia can have a very large Indian, Sri Lankan, Pakistani, Afghani and Nepalese population, yet have barely any players from these backgrounds even playing state cricket.

I can tell you why that's the case for cricket...... Having seen and been involved extremely first hand until a few years ago..... All of the under age pathways are dominated, and I mean absolutely dominated by bias - U/17s state teams chosen by the coach who happens to play at a grade club where most of the players get chosen from, then there's the racism that extends through the pathways to the grade clubs etc. In pre season where indian, Pakistani etc players often struggle to get into grade clubs in the first place. These get compounded by the selection policies of Klinger (for NSW) where they heavily bias players who went through these political, nepotistic pathways and ignore the 24 year old who has peeled off 5 grade centuries because he never played for NSW U/17s.

Anyways..... Nsw doing its best to make a cricket heartland angry.

So if Essendon are doing that I fully.understand and wouldn't mind more of it tbh.

Rant over.

 

[ferrisb]

I’m not sure what you two are missing. Motlop is indigenous and lived within Fremantles zone.

Being Indigenous makes him eligible

NGAs are supposed to be like football evangelism; introducing kids and talent (and communities) to footy that otherwise wouldn't get the exposure.

From the AFL's website: The program is targeted at Multicultural and Indigenous communities who may not have as much opportunity to be involved in football programs, or who have limited understanding of the game and how it is played.

I don't think Jesse Motlop - whose dad/uncles played 400+ AFL matches - or the son of Andrew Walker needs the NGA to learn about footy or to get involved in the sport.

I LOVE the idea of introducing footy and giving a pathway for immigrant / multicultural / indigenous kids. But if the eligibility rules are so simple it ends ups being a modern version of zoning - just based on parent's language and skin colour criteria as well as address.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

I can tell you why that's the case for cricket...... Having seen and been involved extremely first hand until a few years ago..... All of the under age pathways are dominated, and I mean absolutely dominated by bias - U/17s state teams chosen by the coach who happens to play at a grade club where most of the players get chosen from, then there's the racism that extends through the pathways to the grade clubs etc. In pre season where indian, Pakistani etc players often struggle to get into grade clubs in the first place. These get compounded by the selection policies of Klinger (for NSW) where they heavily bias players who went through these political, nepotistic pathways and ignore the 24 year old who has peeled off 5 grade centuries because he never played for NSW U/17s.

Anyways..... Nsw doing its best to make a cricket heartland angry.

So if Essendon are doing that I fully.understand and wouldn't mind more of it tbh.

Rant over.

Time for a UK cricket do better inquiry?


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[SkyhorseTamer]

Time for a UK cricket do better inquiry?


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If they somehow win 3-2 this series then come out here and beat us again..... Yes....