Preview Changes vs Richmond

[Coobk001]

Nah, don't agree whatsoever.

Firstly, our tall defenders conceded 3 goals against a team with no notable big forwards on a slippery night where the teams managed 15 goals between them - it's hardly a huge win.

Secondly, the loss of Trengove has effects all over the ground. It means Westhoff spends time in ruck, robbing our forward line of one of its two talls. It means Trengove is no longer in the back line, replaced by O'Shea who is a good player but a totally different, less physical player. And it weakens our ruck division in general because our new back up, 25% ruckman in Westhoff just isn't any bloody good and simply goes there to give Lobbe a rest.

It's just awful structure. Period.

It may not be a great structure but importantly it is the best we have at the moment. No point crying over our defensive structure because Jonas, Hombsch and O'Shea is our best set up back there. Clurey is not ready and will not give us what O'Shea does.

The only question in our selections was do we bring in Butcher. However as Hinkley has said, he isn't performing well enough and quite frankly at a time when our goalkicking is hurting us I'm pretty sure Butchers poor kicking is keeping him out.

I see no real surprises with our selections, we're trying to pick the best available 22 and we've done it. We certainly are missing Trengove but not much can be done without a replacement for him. Right now we are also missing Colquhoun to take the spot of a Mitchell and probably even Redden who would help fill the Trengove hole. Hell it also would've been nice to be bringing in quality like P Stewart and Moore instead of S Gray and Newton, also would've even be nice to had the choice of bringing in Heath to that small defender spot. However we don't have those options at the moment so we have to do the best with what we have.

For mine I'd play Butch, but I can understand why we don't.

 

[charcolechaddy]

This thread is like the start of the apocalypse !

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Justin Westhoff has kicked 18 goals and 15 behinds from 15 games this year.

John Butcher has kicked 28 goals from 11 games in the SANFL this year.

Yet people still say Butch shouldn't be in the side because of his goalkicking.

Westhoff even had a 5 game run where he didn't kick a single goal.

Why don't we drop Westhoff if it's all about form? Oh, structure overrules in this case hey.

 

[SureBuddy]

Justin Westhoff has kicked 18 goals and 15 behinds from 15 games this year in the AFL.

John Butcher has kicked 28 goals from 11 games in the SANFL this year.

Yet people still say Butch shouldn't be in the side because of his goalkicking.

Westhoff even had a 5 game run where he didn't kick a single goal.

Why don't we drop Westhoff if it's all about form? Oh, structure overrules in this case hey.

Just thought I would highlight a couple of key words for you.

 

[JohnHinckleyJr]

Was ken in Snow White?

 

[Killer Power]

it's gonna be funny if we win and everyone's riding up kens ass again..

Why? I swear it is like groundhog day around here with some posters. Last week it was like "in kern we trust", "look at our win / loss ratio" etc etc. Then we lost. And they were like "but we created the shots, just didnt kick straight". Well back out the rushed behinds and you will probably find that we were more accurate than them.

Fast forward a week and we get the same incredulity from the same people that anyone disagree with our structure. I must have missed the posts where they admitted that selections cost us the game last week.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Just thought I would highlight a couple of key words for you.

Yeah, one's kicking goals in the SANFL and not getting a call up, the other isn't kicking goals in the AFL and is keeping his spot.

Thanks for the highlight.

From rounds 5 - 10, Westhoff kicked 0 goals, 4 behinds.

In the corresponding timeframe, Butch kicked 13 goals, 7 behinds.

I'm not saying we drop Westhoff, I'm just saying there are some double standards floating about with the "form" reasoning.

 

[SureBuddy]

Yeah, one's kicking goals in the SANFL and not getting a call up, the other isn't kicking goals in the AFL and is keeping his spot.

Thanks for the highlight.

From rounds 5 - 10, Westhoff kicked 0 goals, 4 behinds.

In the corresponding timeframe, Butch kicked 13 goals, 7 behinds.

I'm not saying we drop Westhoff, I'm just saying there are some double standards floating about with the "form" reasoning.

Have you watched the games in the SANFL at all man? Comparing his games in that league to the AFL is ridiculous.

Round 9 SANFL:

11 Butcher J, 10 disposals, 6 Marks, and 1 Goal, 3 Behinds, 2 Tackles.

Round 10 SANFL:

11 Butcher J, 10 disposals, 4 marks, 3 Goals, 1 Behind, 2 Tackles.

Round 11 SANFL:

11 Butcher J , 10 disposals, 4 Marks, 1 Goal, 3 Behinds, 0 Tackles.

Round 12

11 Butcher J, 13 disposals, 3 Marks, 0 Goals, 1 Behinds, 2 Tackles.

This is the stats from John's last 4 games.

Are you seriously trying to argue that he is banging down the door for a call up?

5 Goals in 4 weeks as the #1 forward in the SANFL league. 1 goal in the last 2 weeks (the weeks most people on here have been calling for him to be picked) You still can honestly not see why Ken is not picking him? Structure is one thing, but you got to actually show something, even something little. Yes we need structure, but unfortunately John is far from being ready.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Have you watched the games in the SANFL at all man? Comparing his games in that league to the AFL is ridiculous.

Round 9 SANFL:

11 Butcher J, 10 disposals, 6 Marks, and 1 Goal, 3 Behinds, 2 Tackles.

Round 10 SANFL:

11 Butcher J, 10 disposals, 4 marks, 3 Goals, 1 Behind, 2 Tackles.

Round 11 SANFL:

11 Butcher , 10 disposals, 4 Marks, 1 Goal, 3 Behinds, 0 Tackles.

Round 12

11 Butcher, 13 disposals, 3 Marks, 0 Goals, 1 Behinds, 2 Tackles.

This is the stats from John's last 4 games.

Are you seriously trying to argue that he is banging down the door for a call up?

5 Goals in 4 weeks as the #1 forward in the SANFL league. 1 goal in the last 2 weeks (the weeks most people on here have been calling for him to be picked) You still can honestly not see why Ken is not picking him? Structure is one thing, but you got to actually show something, even something little. Yes we need structure, but unfortunately John is far from being ready.

When did I argue he was banging down the door? Did you just decide to skim over my post or what?

We've been calling for Butch to be picked all year, not just the last two weeks.

All I was saying is that form doesn't mean squat sometimes. I compared Westhoff vs Butcher over the same timeframe earlier in the year. Butcher was in FAR better form but didn't even get close to a look-in and no one ever thought Westhoff was going to be dropped. Form is a furphy.

Butch WAS showing something and didn't get rewarded. He's slowed down a bit since, but still hasn't been awful - and when our structure is obviously failing, he's a good option to bring in.

Just sick of hearing "his kicking is why he isn't in the team" - he's been more accurate than Westhoff this year!

 

[smeagolem]

Yeah, one's kicking goals in the SANFL and not getting a call up, the other isn't kicking goals in the AFL and is keeping his spot.

Thanks for the highlight.
is still
From rounds 5 - 10, Westhoff kicked 0 goals, 4 behinds.

In the corresponding timeframe, Butch kicked 13 goals, 7 behinds.

I'm not saying we drop Westhoff, I'm just saying there are some double standards floating about with the "form" reasoning.

I disagree Butch isn't as versatile this early in his career compared to Westy. Eg Butch doesn't ruck, westy is Third in the AFL for marks averages 18 disposals per game and can play anywhere on the park and has the tank. Butch is still developing and will get better but at the moment you can't go comparing the two IMO.

 

[SureBuddy]

When did I argue he was banging down the door? Did you just decide to skim over my post or what?

We've been calling for Butch to be picked all year, not just the last two weeks.

All I was saying is that form doesn't mean squat sometimes. I compared Westhoff vs Butcher over the same timeframe earlier in the year. Butcher was in FAR better form but didn't even get close to a look-in and no one ever thought Westhoff was going to be dropped. Form is a furphy.

Butch WAS showing something and didn't get rewarded. He's slowed down a bit since, but still hasn't been awful - and when our structure is obviously failing, he's a good option to bring in.

Just sick of hearing "his kicking is why he isn't in the team" - he's been more accurate than Westhoff this year!

Okay you clearly want an argument. Westhoff is an established player in the team and has been for years, I just don't see how your argument can be comparing the two. Westhoff does SO much more around the ground than just a key forward. He is our goto man when we are in trouble, slotting him straight in the hole. Our backup ruckman, our loose on the wing when required.

Do you watch much of Butch? You are looking at his goals and behinds as a guide on his accuracy, you really have to factor in all the ones that don't even make it on target man. Boy that is a heck of a lot!!!

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Okay you clearly want an argument. Westhoff is an established player in the team and has been for years, I just don't see how your argument can be comparing the two. Westhoff does SO much more around the ground than just a key forward. He is our goto man when we are in trouble, slotting him straight in the hole. Our backup ruckman, our loose on the wing when required.

Do you watch much of Butch? You are looking at his goals and behinds as a guide on his accuracy, you really have to factor in all the ones that don't even make it on target man. Boy that is a heck of a lot!!!

I watch a lot of Butch. I don't clearly want an argument, I'm just saying form for this side is just an excuse. Ken now has favourites and form doesn't dictate who gets picked. Ken wants a running game, so we go smaller than most teams, therefore spots for talls are limited.

And exactly - Westhoff offers something for our STRUCTURE. That's why he's in the team regardless of form! It's like you're making my argument for me! But when he's doing all those things, we have one key forward who is getting double and triple teamed in Schulz.

STRUCTURALLY, Butcher would help both Schulz and Westhoff and may even snag a few himself while developing at a higher level.

I only brought up Westhoff to highlight that regardless of form, he's getting picked, because we need him structurally. It's the same reason I and a few others want Butch to be picked.

Edit: To prove about my form argument - Gray got dropped after the Crows game. He's now in the side after... not playing a game in the SANFL. Must be a helluva trainer to show serious form there.

 

[FallingLiefs]

as much as he has had a few poor weeks he's still averaging 2.5 contested marks in the last month. which is elite. Someone like that would be invaluable in our current set up of hard working forwards.

 

[1954]

I believe the club is still ahead of where the coach and supporters could have realistically expected it to be.
Ken clearly has a team structure, but he has lost players crucial to that structure, and doesn't feel he has `like for like ' replacements who can get the job done, so he has continued to go small at selection.

The fact remains he has still taken a basket case from the boondocks to a top 4 contender in a season and a half, and I suspect he knows what he needs to change for the team to keep improving, and if it doesn't happen this year, then so be it.

Too many of us ( me included ) have gotten ahead of ourselves, and have been luxuriating in the comfort zone for too long this season, the number of times I have seen next in line Power listed players c*ck up for the Maggies, and supporters say `it doesn't matter because we are 10 goals in front ' is baffling.
Then when the bloke is upgraded and makes the same elementary mistake in an AFL game at a crucial time, all hell breaks loose from probably those same people.

Disclaimer
The author of this post still reserves the right to have a spit on the match thread if the team puts in a crapola effort against the tiggers.

 

[Steve Dore]

.....
In: S. Gray, Logan, Neade, Newton

......

Is the AFL celebrating Vertically Challenged Round this weekend?

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

what's up port fans? sportsbet has given the power 11.5 pt line in this game. am I missing something? a top 4 team vs a cellar dweller. I'm thinking of placing a large wager, something in the area of mortgage for port to win by over 11 pts. what you guys think? easy money or should I be concerned about something?

 

[yepits2020]

When did I argue he was banging down the door? Did you just decide to skim over my post or what?

We've been calling for Butch to be picked all year, not just the last two weeks.

All I was saying is that form doesn't mean squat sometimes. I compared Westhoff vs Butcher over the same timeframe earlier in the year. Butcher was in FAR better form but didn't even get close to a look-in and no one ever thought Westhoff was going to be dropped. Form is a furphy.

Butch WAS showing something and didn't get rewarded. He's slowed down a bit since, but still hasn't been awful - and when our structure is obviously failing, he's a good option to bring in.

Just sick of hearing "his kicking is why he isn't in the team" - he's been more accurate than Westhoff this year!

Butch's kicking has not been more accurate..... still shanks it big time from 20 metres out........his goals are not coming from set shots.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

Butch's kicking has not been more accurate..... still shanks it big time from 20 metres out........his goals are not coming from set shots.

Neither are Westhoff's, what's your point?

 

[yepits2020]

Neither are Westhoff's, what's your point?

My point is that arguing to have Butcher in the team by comparing him to Westhoff does not hold, in my view. Westhoff is and has proven to be a better kick and player. Butch's kicking is still a problem. I am confident he will fix it, but right now it is a problem....

 

[manureid]

Quite a number of Butchers goals I have seen have been handballs over the top (Joe the goose?), so in that instance accuracy is not an issue. Cannot compare SANFL form to AFL either. What would Westhoff be doing in the SANFL? Probably a lot better than Butcher.

As an aside, I want Butcher or Shaw in the team.

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

My point is that arguing to have Butcher in the team by comparing him to Westhoff does not hold, in my view. Westhoff is and has proven to be a better kick and player. Butch's kicking is still a problem. I am confident he will fix it, but right now it is a problem....

Westhoff has been absolutely terrible at set shots this year. Westhoff is a different player, but his form has been down this year comparing to last year and he's had some very rough patches. He's kept his spot because of structure and tickets in the bank, not form, that was my only point in bringing Westhoff up.

Quite a number of Butchers goals I have seen have been handballs over the top (Joe the goose?), so in that instance accuracy is not an issue. Cannot compare SANFL form to AFL either. What would Westhoff be doing in the SANFL? Probably a lot better than Butcher.

As an aside, I want Butcher or Shaw in the team.

Why is he the only key forward that can seemingly always get away from his defender for those joe the goose handballs? That suggests elite play reading skills. But apparently it's a negative, not a positive.

Again, it's got nothing to do with me wanting to replace Westhoff with Butcher, it's just me explaining why I feel we should have Butcher in the AFL team regardless of SANFL form.

 

[Shaucob_Burjan]

I can understand the no 3 talls up forward thing but I am disappointed in how the gold pass has creeped into Ken's coaching.

I propose a ban on recruiting short people for the next 5 years.

 

[Forzaport]

what's up port fans? sportsbet has given the power 11.5 pt line in this game. am I missing something? a top 4 team vs a cellar dweller. I'm thinking of placing a large wager, something in the area of mortgage for port to win by over 11 pts. what you guys think? easy money or should I be concerned about something?

Should be easy money.

Port have lost 3 of its last 4 so there's this perception of fear and doubt.

 

[Pedro59]

Justin Westhoff has kicked 18 goals and 15 behinds from 15 games this year.

John Butcher has kicked 28 goals from 11 games in the SANFL this year.

Yet people still say Butch shouldn't be in the side because of his goalkicking.

Westhoff even had a 5 game run where he didn't kick a single goal.

Why don't we drop Westhoff if it's all about form? Oh, structure overrules in this case hey.

Because Hoff doesn't shank 10 meters out and can play forward and back

 

[AJJPAFC]

My point is that arguing to have Butcher in the team by comparing him to Westhoff does not hold, in my view. Westhoff is and has proven to be a better kick and player. Butch's kicking is still a problem. I am confident he will fix it, but right now it is a problem....

Westhoff has failed hopelessly to deliver when it counts this season. His set shot kicking this year is every bit as poor as Butchers. And as for all the other gear, what exactly, has he given us in the last month? Westie is a passenger right now, frankly O'Shizzle would make a better back up ruckman, at least he plays with some ****ing heart.

You can ALWAYS count on Butcher to give you whatever he's got, granted it's not always great, but the chasing, tackling, and just good old effort are always there from Butch. The same cannot be said of Westhoff in recent times. People are starting to make noises about Gus, which is fair enough, but the Hoff is no different right now.