Preview Changes vs Richmond

[Steve Dore]

Because Hoff doesn't shank 10 meters out and can play forward and back

Forward, back and in ruck.

He hit the post from a set shot from the Eddie Bett's Pocket on Saturday night. I doubt Butcher would have even scored from that shot.

I'd like to see Butcher playing well and in the side not just in the side because he is taller than Kane Mitchell, Jake Neade and Sam Gray.

 

[manureid]

Westhoff has been absolutely terrible at set shots this year. Westhoff is a different player, but his form has been down this year comparing to last year and he's had some very rough patches. He's kept his spot because of structure and tickets in the bank, not form, that was my only point in bringing Westhoff up.



Why is he the only key forward that can seemingly always get away from his defender for those joe the goose handballs? That suggests elite play reading skills. But apparently it's a negative, not a positive.

Again, it's got nothing to do with me wanting to replace Westhoff with Butcher, it's just me explaining why I feel we should have Butcher in the AFL team regardless of SANFL form.

You misunderstand. You used his goals as an example of being in better form as well as better accuracy. Apples and oranges.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Anyone who is arguing that Westhoff's goalkicking has been "fine" this year is absolutely kidding themselves. He has zero ability to take a clutch set shot and has struggled with them since he failed to execute handing the Gold Coast their first win. He's fine early in a game, he's fine late in a game when we're smashing them, but if it's late in a game and it's close, he just never finishes anymore.

Honeyboy Wilson is right in that it's ludicrous to be pointing to Butcher's set shot accuracy as the reason he can't be picked when Westhoff's is just as bad if not worse this year (even if his kicking action looks better, all that matters is that they aren't going through the big sticks) and as a team we just kicked 7.18

 

[1954]

Quite a number of Butchers goals I have seen have been handballs over the top (Joe the goose?), so in that instance accuracy is not an issue. Cannot compare SANFL form to AFL either. What would Westhoff be doing in the SANFL? Probably a lot better than Butcher.

As an aside, I want Butcher or Shaw in the team.

I thought at last, I'm on the same page as the glove puppet, and f*** me, you have an eachway bet, so ( as an aside ) I will need to show resilience and keep the faith. ( insert sh*t stirring emoticon, which unfortunately I can't locate. )

 

[Honeyboy Wilson]

You misunderstand. You used his goals as an example of being in better form as well as better accuracy. Apples and oranges.

I used them as his form as a FORWARD. Considering he's our second key forward, his form ain't crash hot for the role he plays in the forward line. But for structural reasons (needing a ruck chopout and someone who can float around the ground and down back to take intercept marks), form doesn't matter. No one else can do what he does.

In saying that, has he been in anywhere near approaching good form? I doubt we'd find his name mentioned much in the votes this year after each game. Most reviews would state his output has been down. Yet Butch is getting a reputation that he's underperforming in the SANFL, when in reality he's had better form at that level than Westhoff has at AFL level, and Westhoff has barely gotten a mention. That's what happens when you're winning I suppose.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I used them as his form as a FORWARD. Considering he's our second key forward, his form ain't crash hot for the role he plays in the forward line. But for structural reasons (needing a ruck chopout and someone who can float around the ground and down back to take intercept marks), form doesn't matter. No one else can do what he does.

In saying that, has he been in anywhere near approaching good form? I doubt we'd find his name mentioned much in the votes this year after each game. Most reviews would state his output has been down. Yet Butch is getting a reputation that he's underperforming in the SANFL, when in reality he's had better form at that level than Westhoff has at AFL level, and Westhoff has barely gotten a mention. That's what happens when you're winning I suppose.

Considering Butcher was dropped to a chorus of "He's just gotta learn to hit the scoreboard!" (by people who were suddenly very sheepish about that being the reason he shouldn't be in the side after he had 2 bags of 5 in his first 3 weeks at SANFL level), i'd suggest goalkicking matters.

 

[bart7575]

I don't see the reason to bring in Butcher just because we need an extra tall in the FWD line? Our kicking for set shots has been terrible so why bring in the worst in the team to exacerbate the situation? This game will be won in the midfield and if we can shut down Cotchin and Martin we will win. Secondly Gray, Ebert, Wingard, Hartlett and Polec are due to hit the scoreboard for majors. Lastly if Young gets a full game I hope he has a cracker!

 

[cj_09]

Logan and Newton in a week to late. Wet, slippery, contested ball game...not in. Fast dry deck at Etihad....in they come. It is odd. I think enough has been said about Mitchell still in and no 3rd tall that I dont need to add my 'WTF' on that.

Totally agree, Logan should have played the last two games, simple.

Bringing him in now... Face palm.

Fast, dry deck and we bring in another two short people and not one of Butcher/Shaw... Another face palm.

**** it, it is what it is and hopefully we bring home the points.

 

[Long live PAFC]

I agree a third tall is very much needed for the reasons outlined in the thread 'case for a third tall.' Unfortunately Butcher cannot kick at the moment and seems low on confidence. Shaw seems to be in reasonable form but there are doubts over his ability to run out a game. Harvey is certainly not ready yet and our other talls are injured.

So do you play Butcher to take pressure of Schultz and provide another tall target for the smalls to crumb off and, in so doing, risk missing many set shots and further denting his confidence? Do you play Shaw when he may not be ready and risk an injury or dent in confidence? Or do you play a Mitchell/Newton/Neade, knowing you'll get 10-20 touches and a goal?

I would suggest our performances against Adelaide and the Bombers were lost by poor kicking and a below par midfield output rather than needing another tall. We got the entries just could not convert.

If we had a tall in form and fit then they would be playing but we don't. Case closed for now.

 

[Long live PAFC]

Also Cassisi and Mitch need a spell - Logan, Young and Newton to play.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Should be easy money.

Port have lost 3 of its last 4 so there's this perception of fear and doubt.

Yeah victims of the moment syndrome

 

[El_Scorcho]

We actually won the midfield battle with the Bombers. We beat them in clearances and in general midfield play as I saw it.

Where we lost the game was our inability to get through the Bomber's press (because nobody but Pittard and O'Shizzy was prepared to run the ball out of the backlines) and the fact that the Essendon talls had control in the air. Even if they didn't mark, they brought it down to the advantage of their players. We weren't able to do that in the forwardline because often the guys flying for the ball were the smalls who should have been crumbing.

 

[tangolikelama]

PAFC
Hinkley: Sam Gray will probably replace Monfries #pafclive
11/07/2014 1:07 pm

ffs Kern ffs

 

[Forzaport]

Thursday's team selection already made that obvious.

 

[bart7575]

We actually won the midfield battle with the Bombers. We beat them in clearances and in general midfield play as I saw it.

Where we lost the game was our inability to get through the Bomber's press (because nobody but Pittard and O'Shizzy was prepared to run the ball out of the backlines) and the fact that the Essendon talls had control in the air. Even if they didn't mark, they brought it down to the advantage of their players. We weren't able to do that in the forwardline because often the guys flying for the ball were the smalls who should have been crumbing.

This is my point. Same situation against Sydney but against them we used out opportunities in our FWD 50. Goal kicking has killed us and we have just been rushed with our decisions and used the ball over the last 2 weeks but credit to the Crows and Essendon, their pressure caused it. I think this week we will see a scoreline more like 15.12 instead of 7.18. If so we will win.

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

PAFC
Hinkley: Sam Gray will probably replace Monfries #pafclive
11/07/2014 1:07 pm

ffs Kern ffs

 

[yepits2020]

And guess what guys. Mitchell is likely to play (at this stage anyway) Still wondering if Cassisi will come up.

 

[tangolikelama]

Lets make Lobbe sub while we're at it

 

[Forzaport]

Anyone who is arguing that Westhoff's goalkicking has been "fine" this year is absolutely kidding themselves. He has zero ability to take a clutch set shot and has struggled with them since he failed to execute handing the Gold Coast their first win. He's fine early in a game, he's fine late in a game when we're smashing them, but if it's late in a game and it's close, he just never finishes anymore.

I think it's perception and the stigma of missing that Gold Coast goal will stick for a very long time. Sure Westhoff is a confidence player and he has missed key clutch goals in the past but his goal kicking really is fine. Few players are reliable clutch goal kickers. Even Schulz has missed his fair share of clutch goals.

Some examples of Westhoff goals that aren't early in a game or late when we're smashing them in 2014: he kicked 2 critical goals to give us the win against Melbourne in Alice, kicked 1 and missed 1 critical goals against Sydney in the final quarter and he kicked 1 to put us in front of the doggies when they had all the play in the 2nd quarter. He also pounded Carlton into the ground with 4 goals in the 2nd quarter when the game was hot in round 1.

I'm sure if I dig further into the past I'll find plenty of examples where Westhoff has kicked important goals.

 

[yepits2020]

PAFC
Hinkley: Sam Gray will probably replace Monfries #pafclive
11/07/2014 1:07 pm

ffs Kern ffs

Has worked for us before... On its own, this is not a problem. Even had Cornes bemoan Gray's unlucky dropping. Far more concerned with not having someone really tall in the backlines, or brining in a tall forward to release Westhoff. Seems just not right.

 

[yepits2020]

Lets make Lobbe sub while we're at it

Best idea I have read on this thread. Consistent with our direction.

 

[Andre]

Lets make Lobbe sub while we're at it

Sam Gray starting ruck.

 

[Jdawgz]

6'0 and over is the appropriate height for footy..how tall is kane mitchell? :s

 

[Coobk001]

I think the majority are in agreement that the major issue with our lineup is probably just the lack of another forward option, and that we can't do much more about Trengove & Bobby than we are doing.

Given that, I thought I'd just raise a couple key stats:
- Port are still #1 in the comp for marks inside 50. While it may appear we are crying out for another tall forward, this would certainly indicate that we dont.
- Port are still #1 for inside 50's in the comp. Indicating that we are still getting it in there a lot. So if we are marking it a lot as well, maybe our biggest issue is the ability to actually finish, and/or win the ground ball. Theoretically with this stat we should have the most marks, however we should also be putting a far greater score on the board and maybe the coaches are seeing that our ability to get the ball at ground level when it is in there is a problem.

Maybe the coaching staff and their analysis is just showing a lot different stuff than what the majority on here want to believe. I mean you only have to look at the negativity around Pittard and then actually look at the positive results he has got statistically to see how the eyes and bias are skewing views around here.

I for one will trust that they have a plan and an idea of how to get us back on track, as they've got us this far and I think we will get back on track this week.

 

[Puddy]

Really needed Stewart in imo, means Westhoff can play his proper position