Collingwood List Management Thread

[Jelly Bean]

I am not sure I get your answer - are you saying that you wouldn't trade Witts for O'Meara?

I am pretty sure that GWS would need far more than just someone like Witts to give up the draft pick that will pick O'Meara (or another 17 year old). Maybe something like an established player plus Witts. I don't think even Witts plus our first draft pick would do it.

 

[KissmeRobbo]

I am not sure I get your answer - are you saying that you wouldn't trade Witts for O'Meara?

I am pretty sure that GWS would need far more than just someone like Witts to give up the draft pick that will pick O'Meara (or another 17 year old). Maybe something like an established player plus Witts. I don't think even Witts plus our first draft pick would do it.

Well then I definitely wouldn't, if there's even a chance of a Sandilands type advantage then our mids and game plan goes to another level

Never trade keys for mids

 

[Number 10]

Well then I definitely wouldn't, if there's even a chance of a Sandilands type advantage then our mids and game plan goes to another level

Never trade keys for mids

This does beg the question then. Before Jolly came to the Pies, would you have traded Pendlebury for Sandilands?

 

[Ron]

I didn't know that, brings Didak, Swan, O'Brien, Pendlebury, Thomas, Beams and Sidebottom a year closer, and Cloke and Reid 2 years closer, some important players bumped.

Player eligibility for Veterans list under new rules

2012: Davis Johnson Tarrant Didak
2013: Swan
2014: Maxwell
2015: Cloke Shaw O'Brien
2016: Pendlebury Thomas
2017: Reid Toovey Goldsack
2018: Dawes Wellingham McCarthy Dick
2019: N Brown Beams Macaffer
2020: Sidebottom Blair

Swan was drafted in 2001, so wouldn't he be eligible next year for the Vets list? This is his 10th year at the club now.

 

[KissmeRobbo]

This does beg the question then. Before Jolly came to the Pies, would you have traded Pendlebury for Sandilands?

I'd love to say no, especially after seeing what he has become.. but if I think back to a decade where the ruck highlights were McKee Richards Wood and Fraser I can't tell you I wouldn't have..

In the end Buckley never won a flag with those ruckman

 

[Knightmare]

How can people say they'll delist Buckley given the amount of games they've put into him? Nick Maxwell said this year they rate him and they're determined to make him a top 22 player. He's shown some good signs this year. He'll probably play this week.

I know people have mixed views on Buckley but to say he'll get delisted is ridiculous

24 year old. Depth player. Doesn't even project as a best 22 talent when Ben Johnson or Leon Davis retire with better young talents in Jye Bolton, Paul Seedsman and Tom Young.

If we retain Buckley another year all we are retaining is a depth player.

Would GWS be into a straight swap Witts for Omeara?

If we did a deal for O'Meara, Witts would be a big part of it and an asset GWS would consider very desirable.

Add Wellingham + 1st rounder and maybe they do the deal.

But do we want to give up our next potential never generation no.1 ruckman? We have enough mids.

 

[blaze036]

GWS would be very interested in witts, however O'meara is worth a fair bit more and a straight swap would need to be sweatened. Maybe N.brown+witts or goldsack

 

[the mighty T]

GWS would be very interested in witts, however O'meara is worth a fair bit more and a straight swap would need to be sweatened. Maybe N.brown+witts or goldsack

if they asked for this, i'd politely ask them to leave the room before the laughter begins

A premiership winning full back in his early 20's + a young ruckman/another premiership player for an untried midfielder, an area to which we are already in surplus..

thanks but no thanks

24 year old. Depth player. Doesn't even project as a best 22 talent when Ben Johnson or Leon Davis retire with better young talents in Jye Bolton, Paul Seedsman and Tom Young.

If we retain Buckley another year all we are retaining is a depth player.



If we did a deal for O'Meara, Witts would be a big part of it and an asset GWS would consider very desirable.

Add Wellingham + 1st rounder and maybe they do the deal.

But do we want to give up our next potential never generation no.1 ruckman? We have enough mids.

Agree with bolded

 

[Bay Pie]

Swan was drafted in 2001, so wouldn't he be eligible next year for the Vets list? This is his 10th year at the club now.

The change to the vets list rule, to just 10 years of service, comes in with free agency, at the end of 2012. Dids is in a similar boat, in that he'd have 10 years service up but not yet the new qualifying 2013 season. Dids also isn't 30 until 2013 so he'd qulaify either way.

2013 season it is.

 

[Number 10]

I'd love to say no, especially after seeing what he has become.. but if I think back to a decade where the ruck highlights were McKee Richards Wood and Fraser I can't tell you I wouldn't have..

In the end Buckley never won a flag with those ruckman

Good answer, wouldn't know what I would do!

 

[KissmeRobbo]

So this should be the final revision then?

2012: Tarrant Johnson Davis
2013: Swan Didak
2014: Shaw Maxwell
2015: Cloke O'Brien
2016: Pendlebury Thomas
2017: Reid Dawes N Brown Toovey Goldsack Dick
2018: Wellingham McCarthy
2019: Beams Sidebottom Macaffer Rounds
2020: Blair

2013 really opens up now!

 

[twaters]

Let us think....Let's trade our first home-grown young ruck and possible power forward in yonks, with first round pick, and one or two premiership players for.....Chris Judd? Maybe, maybe not.

But for an untried 17 year old mid who says I'm not sure I want to leave WA, has the questionable taste of training at Freo, and may want to leave in two years back to WA anyway? Tell GWS they are dreaming.

A Witts in hand is better than trading the farmstead for phantoms in the bush.

 

[gifted1]

If we did a deal for O'Meara, Witts would be a big part of it and an asset GWS would consider very desirable.

Add Wellingham + 1st rounder and maybe they do the deal.

But do we want to give up our next potential never generation no.1 ruckman? We have enough mids.

it might seem like im picking on you KM, im not, i love your posts, but this is ridiculous.

Players are a commodity, yes, to a degree but a club is also a club, one of the last things a club will do is have a trainee scholar, part of the club for years as an underage kid etc then trade him at the first opportunity....it just sends the wrong message to all nsw scholars and even draftees....we've relocated him down to melbourne a year early so the chances of us lumping him into a deal for o'meara are extremely remote.

The to suggest 1st round pick, wellingham and witts for O'meara......bloody hell, GWS would jump at that.......wellingham if given the opportunity is the equal or better of ward from the dogs...they'd love sharrod, M.Williams is on the record as saying wellingham is the most under rated player in the comp.

Im an O'meara fan, watched most of his champs on dvd and once live, however i'd be reluctant to trade wellingham when we're in premiership mode.....clearance winners dont grow on trees.....if we had to trade a good young player i'd rather it be beams, he is more of a linker, hard runner....no doubt he's good at it, but they're easier to replace than someone who influences stoppages, reads the ball off the ruck brilliantly, can create stoppage goals etc...wellers has massive upside..wouldn't give up (and neither would the club)3 potential good/very good players for O'meara (pick 25, witts, wellingham) as much as i rate him.

You need to be very careful trading out players, or cutting careers short for that matter, it affects the fabric of clubs, using up players and spitting them out creates a bad culture...if that means missing on o'meara than so be it.

 

[Old Spice]

Let us think....Let's trade our first home-grown young ruck and possible power forward in yonks, with first round pick, and one or two premiership players for.....Chris Judd? Maybe, maybe not.

But for an untried 17 year old mid who says I'm not sure I want to leave WA, has the questionable taste of training at Freo, and may want to leave in two years back to WA anyway? Tell GWS they are dreaming.

A Witts in hand is better than trading the farmstead for phantoms in the bush.

Yeah, it's a good point. Don't grow on trees.

That said, I'd still be looking to try and wangle O'meara with some established players and 1st pick, both to get cap relief and another prospect coming through.

If you were to play devil's advocate, I guess you could posit that we have Ceglar as a prospect and could always trade in an established ruck in post 2012 drafts, when our 1st pick would be lower in the draft, bundled with a player. Remembering that there is now a bit of a surfeit of rucks owing to sub-rule.

But the sheer size and excellent early form as exposed to date means he may be an absolute uber ruck in ensuing years.

I'm probably inclined toward your position though.

I'm pretty convinced that's the clubs position too.

 

[gifted1]

further to my post, you need to create an enviroment where young players work hard, improve, get the rewards, be part of the club......the more light they see at the end of the tunnell the harder they work and improve....you cant just ship them off at the drop of the hat....collingwood doesn't do this, thats why we're highly resepcted in the recruiting business.

 

[mdc]

gifted, I agree with the crux of your post re: keeping successful teams together, cultivating a culture of loyalty etc, but...

wellingham if given the opportunity is the equal or better of ward from the dogs...

This is wildly optimistic.

Im an O'meara fan, watched most of his champs on dvd and once live, however i'd be reluctant to trade wellingham when we're in premiership mode.....clearance winners dont grow on trees.....if we had to trade a good young player i'd rather it be beams, he is more of a linker, hard runner....no doubt he's good at it, but they're easier to replace

I know I'm a Beams fanboy compared to everyone else here, but this is nuts. He's not a link player, he's an inside contested ball winner moonlighting at half-forward for the good of the team. Even playing totally out of position, he's averaging nearly as many clearances as Wellingham, who's playing in the centre (3 and 3.3 per game respectively).

I think Wellingham's stylistic qualities (pace, fluidity, overall Juddiness aesthetically) overshadow the fact that he's still a really inconsistent player who rarely puts together 2 good quarters, let alone 2 good matches.

He adds much needed pace to our midfield group and I certainly wouldn't be trading him unless I had to, but much sooner Wellingham than Beams. One's a nice complimentary player, the other is going to be challenging for Copelands for the next 10 years.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Can Collingwood actually trade Witts? I don't think they can if he is not on the senior list.

 

[Knightmare]

it might seem like im picking on you KM, im not, i love your posts, but this is ridiculous.

Players are a commodity, yes, to a degree but a club is also a club, one of the last things a club will do is have a trainee scholar, part of the club for years as an underage kid etc then trade him at the first opportunity....it just sends the wrong message to all nsw scholars and even draftees....we've relocated him down to melbourne a year early so the chances of us lumping him into a deal for o'meara are extremely remote.

The to suggest 1st round pick, wellingham and witts for O'meara......bloody hell, GWS would jump at that.......wellingham if given the opportunity is the equal or better of ward from the dogs...they'd love sharrod, M.Williams is on the record as saying wellingham is the most under rated player in the comp.

Im an O'meara fan, watched most of his champs on dvd and once live, however i'd be reluctant to trade wellingham when we're in premiership mode.....clearance winners dont grow on trees.....if we had to trade a good young player i'd rather it be beams, he is more of a linker, hard runner....no doubt he's good at it, but they're easier to replace than someone who influences stoppages, reads the ball off the ruck brilliantly, can create stoppage goals etc...wellers has massive upside..wouldn't give up (and neither would the club)3 potential good/very good players for O'meara (pick 25, witts, wellingham) as much as i rate him.

You need to be very careful trading out players, or cutting careers short for that matter, it affects the fabric of clubs, using up players and spitting them out creates a bad culture...if that means missing on o'meara than so be it.

I'm not convinced O'Meara would be the right option either.

Or another of those 17 year olds now for that matter unless there is a particularly attractive deal.

I'm allot more comfortable finding our 3/4 delistings now than I was 1/2 months ago. So a trade with GWS is hardly necessary and possibly not in our best interests considering premierships are our business.

In trade week unless the right player comes up at the right price I'm not super worried about making any trades.


With the potential O'Meara trade I'm just keeping it realistic and talking the currency GWS would be looking at in a trade.
I wouldn't do Witts, 1st rounder + Wellingham either.
Witts + Wellingham. Maybe, but still wouldn't be super comfortable doing it.


With O'Meara/ other 17 year olds the detail that is important is that we won't have whoever it is until 2013.
- Which means a full season before we get any potential benefit of any kind out of the trade (so short term would hurt to lose Wellingham and not have that 1st rounder as an extra potential talent who might help improve us).

Witts is a potential franchise ruckman - which is MUCH harder to get than a midfielder - of which there is a surplus of quality of around the league relative to a potential high level ruckman.

With O'Meara the kind of production we would expect in 2013 is maybe 18 disposal average or thereabouts mostly as an outside mid. Would have influence with his pace. Would be best 22 player - probable best 18.
Year 2 might become a 21 disposal player and probable best 15 player.
- Immediate production would be of a similar level to what you'd expect from Wellingham but only from season 3 - 2015 is it likely that he would go past Wellingham. Again add to that the 1st rounder we miss out on + Witts and short term it's not going to help us win premierships and long term you have to ask questions also because it's a hell of allot to give up. Make no mistake.

As for Beams. Wouldn't trade. Beams over Wellingham anyday. Higher hurt factor. Higher potential. Younger. More consistancy.
I would re-consider your rating of Wellingham. For mine in that top 15-20 region at the club. Would take Ward over Wellingham myself.

 

[gifted1]

everyone is pretty quick to forget what wellingham can do, i rate him higher than beams, im happy to be on the outer here, but i highly doubt i'd be on the outer with recruiters from other clubs. Put them both up for trade i have absolutely no doubt wellingham would receive the higher bids.

As for beams being a tough inside mid, i dispute that, he is a predator, picks and choses when to go, when he has to go he does but he is more a link runner, finisher, not a first dibs centre bounce mid like ball, wellingham, swan, pendles etc.

wellingham has massive upside being a late comer to football, late developer etc, he is 18 months older than beams but was miles behind in his football development when he joined the club, has large scope, as evidenced by the melbourne match this year when given the opportunity to be a key mid.

I rate ward but you need to realise the difference in opportunity, ward spends alot of his time now as a cb mid, his opportunity versus the wellingham opprtunity...wellers is behind swan, daisy, ball, pendles....as would ward. You cant just judge a player on the stats, you need to look at situations......and recall how good wellingham was for us in last years finals series.....remember how poor beams was when the heat turned up...

I rate beams, ward and wellingham.....but some a little higher than others.

 

[mdc]

and recall how good wellingham was for us in last years finals series.....remember how poor beams was when the heat turned up...

Each to their own on the rest, but Wellingham only played well in 2 finals, our big win over Geelong and our big win over St.Kilda. Let's not make him out to be some sort of finals warrior.

In any case, given Beams' excellent record of standing up against Geelong and other top sides, I'm very confident he'll put the aberration of last year's finals* behind him, and go out and wreck shit this year.

*Just as a p.s, he still averaged more touches in last year's poor finals series than Wellingham.

 

[10571z]

What would collingwoods aim be this year in the draft. Being an apparent super year surely we would be looking to do a trade or 2 to grab a early draft pick.

 

[Zahki]

I thought this years draft was supposed to be very weak. Next year is the superdraft right?

 

[TradeDraft]

I'm not convinced O'Meara would be the right option either.

Or another of those 17 year olds now for that matter unless there is a particularly attractive deal.

I'm allot more comfortable finding our 3/4 delistings now than I was 1/2 months ago. So a trade with GWS is hardly necessary and possibly not in our best interests considering premierships are our business.

In trade week unless the right player comes up at the right price I'm not super worried about making any trades.


With the potential O'Meara trade I'm just keeping it realistic and talking the currency GWS would be looking at in a trade.
I wouldn't do Witts, 1st rounder + Wellingham either.
Witts + Wellingham. Maybe, but still wouldn't be super comfortable doing it.


With O'Meara/ other 17 year olds the detail that is important is that we won't have whoever it is until 2013.
- Which means a full season before we get any potential benefit of any kind out of the trade (so short term would hurt to lose Wellingham and not have that 1st rounder as an extra potential talent who might help improve us).

Witts is a potential franchise ruckman - which is MUCH harder to get than a midfielder - of which there is a surplus of quality of around the league relative to a potential high level ruckman.

With O'Meara the kind of production we would expect in 2013 is maybe 18 disposal average or thereabouts mostly as an outside mid. Would have influence with his pace. Would be best 22 player - probable best 18.
Year 2 might become a 21 disposal player and probable best 15 player.
- Immediate production would be of a similar level to what you'd expect from Wellingham but only from season 3 - 2015 is it likely that he would go past Wellingham. Again add to that the 1st rounder we miss out on + Witts and short term it's not going to help us win premierships and long term you have to ask questions also because it's a hell of allot to give up. Make no mistake.

As for Beams. Wouldn't trade. Beams over Wellingham anyday. Higher hurt factor. Higher potential. Younger. More consistancy.
I would re-consider your rating of Wellingham. For mine in that top 15-20 region at the club. Would take Ward over Wellingham myself.

I would not Trade Witts as he is the Best Ruck Prospect this Club has since Monkhurst and we can see with Jolly how a Dominant Big Bodied Ruckman can help the Team get to a Flag

 

[Knightmare]

This year. Top 10 strong. Top 20 strong. Not super deep.

2012 will be the superdraft. There will be some super talents. Potential is there for allot of sides to do VERY well in both the 1st + 2nd rounds next year.

 

[TradeDraft]

This year. Top 10 strong. Top 20 strong. Not super deep.

2012 will be the superdraft. There will be some super talents. Potential is there for allot of sides to do VERY well in both the 1st + 2nd rounds next year.

Where would you rate witts?