Strategy Collingwood's Best 22 2015

[magpieswmb]

williams keefe seedsman
langdon reid toovey
varcoe greenwood sidebttm
fasolo cloke goldsack
elliott witts broomhead
golt pendlebury swan
kennedy adams freeman
sub: thomas

next in line: dwyer,karnezis,armstrong,frost,blair,sinclair,ramsay,crisp,oxley
dont rate young, grundy, brown, mccafer, white (earn there spots)

 

[Apex36]

I'd like to see him in there but not a lock. Could be in and out.


With Moore it depends on what your objective is.

If the team wants to win a premiership next year and that is the all in objective I'd be playing Karnezis instead in the front half and rotating up the field as someone who will play stronger football next year.

Purely for development I like the quality key forwards in the team as early as possible. If you look at the stats of all those key forwards who play early: Joe Daniher, Tom Lynch (GC), Jeremy Cameron, Lance Franklin, Jarryd Roughead, Travis Cloke, Matthew Pavlich, Nick Riewoldt. They're not season one performers but if you look at that improvement the following years, those guys have all improved rapidly, season to season.

I also see that consistency of position to be critical for key position players. Daniel Merrett, Leigh Brown, Brent Staker, Lachlan Hansen. You can't throw those kinds of guys around and each time they moved around they seem to take a step back and really struggle to play their best footy and it's only when they've had that consistency of role that they've played their best footy. About the only guy who has seamlessly changed position without any issues in recent times is Matthew Pavlich.

Collingwood based on what Nathan has said to the media/online to fans is suggesting the opposite approach which is starting him back (with no if any deadline to move him forward) and there isn't any indication he'll play at all season one, but most probably he doesn't given he is expected to play back and there are too many more advanced options for him to see any senior opportunities.
Just the lack of senior exposure but then the lack of consistency will both slow down his potential for development. And it's not like he doesn't know how to play back, he did it most of last year. So I don't personally see it as necessary learning when guys like Jeremy Cameron/Lance Franklin/Nick Riewoldt/Travis Cloke and the vast majority of those great forwards have never played back.


--

Ketchup it's an interesting comment regarding Greenwood's inconsistent ball drop.

The stats suggest according to the AFL prospectus that Adams is the second worst of the 200 most frequent kicks of the footy and his ability to hit inside 50 targets was incredibly poor. Given he is that bad and in his mid 20s it's hard to see his footskills improving. It's just hard to carry someone that extremely bad by foot through the midfield, unless it's Marley Williams who I feel would in that inside ball winning role be a more dominant Greenwood with a few other tricks.

Adams in his mid 20's? The kid only turned 21 in September...

 

[Knightmare]

Adams in his mid 20's? The kid only turned 21 in September...

In that post I spoke of Greenwood, not Adams.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Toovey Brown Frost
Langdon Reid Williams

Sidebottom Adams Greenwood

Varcoe Cloke Broomhead
Elliot Witts White

Grundy Pendlebury Swan

Goldsack Freeman Thomas

Sub Fasolo


Young isn't fit but I would have him in over Toovey

PK might be an option instead of going in with two Rucks White can 2nd ruck

Thomas has a month to prove he is best 22 if he isn't play Crisp or Degoey

Would like to play Seedsman but for who?

I'd love to see that back 6 play every game in 2015.

 

[Apex36]

In that post I spoke of Greenwood, not Adams.

You should go back and edit your post then, because this is pretty confusing:

The stats suggest according to the AFL prospectus that Adams is the second worst of the 200 most frequent kicks of the footy and his ability to hit inside 50 targets was incredibly poor. Given he is that bad and in his mid 20s it's hard to see his footskills improving.

 

[Knightmare]

You should go back and edit your post then, because this is pretty confusing:

Edited for accuracy.

 

[Ketchup]

Ketchup it's an interesting comment regarding Greenwood's inconsistent ball drop.

The stats suggest according to the AFL prospectus that Greenwood is the second worst of the 200 most frequent kicks of the footy and his ability to hit inside 50 targets was incredibly poor. Given he is that bad and in his mid 20s it's hard to see his footskills improving. It's just hard to carry someone that extremely bad by foot through the midfield, unless it's Marley Williams who I feel would in that inside ball winning role be a more dominant Greenwood with a few other tricks.

It was just something I noticed when watching (the limited) amount of videos available. I guess there is hope, Jobe Watson is known to have clearly bettered his skillset, but at his age (greenwood) it may be too late to even bother.

 

[Knightmare]

It was just something I noticed when watching (the limited) amount of videos available. I guess there is hope, Jobe Watson is known to have clearly bettered his skillset, but at his age (greenwood) it may be too late to even bother.

When you've done it all your life it does make it a challenge and generally it doesn't improve with guys rarely able on the fly to change their techniques so drastically.

It is remarkable that Jobe Watson late career improved his kick and Ben Johnson also similarly went from a poor kick early on to a pretty good kick in the end. But they're the only exceptions that come to mind as guys who late career have been able to improve by foot. So based on that while we'll surely work with him on it, it's against the odds that he improves it drastically.

 

[mike123]

Agree with Greenwood. Cant see how Brown is a lock. Kicks the ball up and under every time and for a big guy is terrible 1 on 1. He cant live off his 2010 grand final appearances forever

Sounds more like Frost

 

[pugsville]

Best 22

Elliot [*], Reid -[R](1) Swann - [R]
Broomhead [P], Cloke [*], White - [Q](2)
Sidebottom [*], Greenwood -[R], Varcoe - [R]
Langdon [P], Keefe -[Q] (3), Seedsman [P](4)
Toovey [R], Brown - [R], Williams [P],
Grundy [P], Pendlebury[*], Adams [P],
Witts [P] (5), Goldsack - [Q], Thomas [P], Blair [Q] (6)

Emerg Frost [P], Dwyer [Q], Fasolo [Q]


Notes.
[*]. locked in class, chance for All Australian in their position on exposed recent form.
[R] - can they reclaim their best? Swann, Reid, Brown, Toovey, Varcoe included Greenwood bit can he keep last years form in his case
[P] - good potential but not consistent good performers yet
[Q] - has queries or marginal selection.

(1) Best FF option, Reid if fit, but he's also best CHB option. I prefer Reid forward if he's 100% but easing back in at CHB could be the option.
Other contenders White, Witts, Grundy, Karnezis, Keefe, Brown (none of them really ready or with form at FF)
(2) Best 3rd Tall, White has impact but goes missing for large chunks of games.
Other contenders - Goldsack, Karnezis, or going small Fasolo, or later 2015 DeGoey.
(3) Best CHB outside Ried, Frost/Brown more full backs but could be preferred.
(4) Seedsmen more suited to wing at this stage, less strong in 1 on 1 defence, but other contenders have issues, Young, Armstrong during 2015 some of the young guys could add pressure. (Maynard? S'Berg)
(5) Two rucks ? Grundy + Witts + White? I've put Witts as he's more definite than other bench contenders, Witts v Fasolo?
(6) Blair, Dwyer, Kennedy it's a raffle. McCaffer if fit and there is a whole range possible youngsters as the season progresses. Selected blair as Adams/Greenwood needs centre sqaure backup.

Where does Reid play?
The Forward Structure, Reid/Cloke/White Witts/Cloke/White ?
The Backline talls Keefe/Brown?

 

[KissStephanie]

Seedsman definitely best 22 guys and gals?

No.

Round 1 Team:
B: Alan Toovey, Nathan Brown, Tyson Goldsack
HB: Marley Williams, Ben Reid, Tom Langdon
C: Nathan Freeman, Taylor Adams, Travis Varcoe
HF: Dane Swan, Travis Cloke, Ben Kennedy
For: Patrick Karnezis, Jesse White, Jamie Elliott
Foll: Brodie Grundy, Scott Pendlebury, Steele Sidebottom

Inter: Jarrod Witts, Levi Greenwood, Tim Broomhead, Josh Thomas

Emer (from): Jarryd Blair, Alex Fasolo, Jack Frost, Clinton Young, Lachie Keeffe, Sam Dwyer, Paul Seedsman, Ben Sinclair.

 

[Anzacday]

I disagree. It might be the most inexperienced team in a while, but not the weakest, and I would love to see a team from 2004-05 that you think is better.

Hey KS - It's best not to respond.

 

[Knightmare]

Comparing those 2004/2005 teams and the team today is a really interesting one and I'm with THATSGOLD.

There are differences. 2004/2005 definitely for me had better the better top end. A clearly better best 5, best 10 and substantially better best 15. Better key position players. Better veteran talent and certainly a stronger group of leaders. The primary edge of the 2015 team not that we've seen it in action yet is a substantially better young core group of talent and substantially better depth and quantity of options worth playing at AFL level.

Assuming injuries are not a factor and the objective is to win a game of footy today I'm taking the team of 2004/2005 over the 2015 team. The injuries to Nathan Buckley and the games he missed played a big part in those teams both seasons not playing finals footy. So overall I would agree that the 2015 Collingwood team is the worst on paper until they prove otherwise as the worst team we've fielded since 2000 when it was Nathan Buckley, Paul Williams, some really good key forwards (Tarrant and the Rocca's) and then a question of - then who? With a bunch of guys who weren't sufficiently fit to play out the season.

Regarding the 2015 list the young talent is really superb. Probably the best on any list outside the expansion clubs. We've just drafted that well and scored that quantity of quality talent. It's just not a team that is a threat to go anywhere in 2015 with no veteran leaders outside Pendlebury and few stars Pendlebury then a few guys who were once stars in Swan, Cloke and Reid then Sidebottom, Elliott and probably Broomhead though not yet acknowledge as being one of our better players are in my mind those better guys we have now when talking what they can do in 2015.



For those who either didn't see or don't recall those 2004/2005 sides. There was talent there. It's not like there wasn't talented teams, it was hardly that different to the 2002/2003 sides that made grand finals. Nathan Buckley was the man on that team, it was just unfortunate he only played the 15 and 11 games in 2004/2005 respectively. James Clement was one of the best tall backs in the game and really led that back half. Ben Johnson had his best years through 2004/2005 but in 2005 only played the 13 games. Tarrant and Rocca were both terrific but struggled to stay on the field those seasons with Tarrant only playing 14 games in 2004 and 17 in 2005. Then Rocca with 14 games in 2004 and 4 games in 2005. Didak when he played in those seasons played some strong footy but like the others missed games with 18 games in 2004 and 12 in 2005. Then Licuria, O'Bree, Holland, Burns and Lockyer played some good footy through those seasons and Wakelin was a solid piece down back.
Compare that to today and we just don't have that many guys who are in that performing to a high level stage in their career with half of those grand final teams of 2010/2011 gone, and that shouldn't surprise people when you look at how young so many of our better talents for 2015 are.

 

[PepperFace]

Sounds more like Frost

Frost is very similar i agree. Frost gives away less of those silly holding free kicks when its unnecessary so i have him ahead of brown

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Comparing those 2004/2005 teams and the team today is a really interesting one and I'm with THATSGOLD.

I'm going to split the difference and say 2007 was by far the strongest. You had the Buckley, Burns, O'Bree, Rocca, Lockyer, Presti, Clement, Wakelin, Fraser, Leon Davis crew, Johnson, Didak, Shaw, Swan, Cloke, Maxwell, Medhurst, a young Pendlebury, Thomas, O'Brien and even the best forward that never made it Sean Rusling. A bees dick from beating the Cats. A reminder of how good they could be...

Sigh...

But enough lauding the past. I still think there's enough latent talent in 2015 to take us to 6-7th this year at minimum.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

So I don't personally see it as necessary learning when guys like Jeremy Cameron/Lance Franklin/Nick Riewoldt/Travis Cloke and the vast majority of those great forwards have never played back.

Riewoldt is the odd one out, here. In 2002, Riewoldt's first full season, he played both ends of the ground. He won the rising star and also the Saints BnF.

 

[noideaatall]

2004 - 13th, 2005 - 15th. Not exactly outstanding results. Were those results an accurate representation of those teams? Or did we underperform, did we tank, was our coach useless or was it luck of the draw, fate and coincidence so to speak? I have no idea. What I remember was that belief we needed something more, some new injection of talent to take us back into the finals and beyond, to actually win the gf. It took 5 years, not to mention daisy, pendles, sidey and beams.

Ignorant I may be but when I look at our potential best 22 rd 1 and where that might be rd 22 I actually feel a lot more hopeful of this current side than I did of the 2004/5 teams. Right now the best 22 seems a bit whatever, too many average, nqr players but my hope is by season end we will see a number of players breakout and change that perception. We may be light on the top end of the list but I have never seen us so solid in the middle nor so much young talent coming through.

 

[Knightmare]

I'm going to split the difference and say 2007 was by far the strongest. You had the Buckley, Burns, O'Bree, Rocca, Lockyer, Presti, Clement, Wakelin, Fraser, Leon Davis crew, Johnson, Didak, Shaw, Swan, Cloke, Maxwell, Medhurst, a young Pendlebury, Thomas, O'Brien and even the best forward that never made it Sean Rusling. A bees dick from beating the Cats. A reminder of how good they could be...

Sigh...

But enough lauding the past. I still think there's enough latent talent in 2015 to take us to 6-7th this year at minimum.

I'm with you Sherriff re that 2007 group.

On paper that 2007 group was a dream team wasn't it? It was really that last year with those old guys from the 00s and the start of the build with those new guys.

Having key forwards of: Cloke, Rocca, Reid, Dawes and Rusling. Having key backs of: Clement, Wakelin, Prestigiacomo, Brown. The having that mix of the veteran midfielders and new current generation midfielders, really good general defenders.

I'm with you. It was one heck of a team on paper when you look at what those veterans had achieved and what those young guys at the time have gone on to achieve.

 

[Laurie Holden]

Been and gone....

How's the forward line in that game. Rocca, Cloke, Rusling, Medhurst, Didak and Davis. Lordy!!!!!

 

[mike123]

Frost is very similar i agree. Frost gives away less of those silly holding free kicks when its unnecessary so i have him ahead of brown

That's because Frost is usually two or three metres behind. I'd have Brown ahead because he can wrestle opponents (yes sometimes he does give away a free) to allow someone like Reid or Langdon to swoop past for an easy intercept mark.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I'm with you Sherriff re that 2007 group.

On paper that 2007 group was a dream team wasn't it? It was really that last year with those old guys from the 00s and the start of the build with those new guys.

Having key forwards of: Cloke, Rocca, Reid, Dawes and Rusling. Having key backs of: Clement, Wakelin, Prestigiacomo, Brown. The having that mix of the veteran midfielders and new current generation midfielders, really good general defenders.

I'm with you. It was one heck of a team on paper when you look at what those veterans had achieved and what those young guys at the time have gone on to achieve.

Agree here too 07 was the best team I've seen fielded. We lacked one thing and one thing only, a senior Ruckman. Josh and Guy just didn't cut it. Richards was too young to have an impact against the big Ottens.
On 15 I think we have a lot of youngish passengers on the list that have been recruited late in drafts. Seedsman Sinclair Thomas Williams even guys like Witts and Keeffe from NSW may not make it.

 

[iGNITER]

B - Frost Brown Toovey
HB - Williams Reid Langdon
C - Sidebottom Adams Swan
HF - Varcoe Cloke Goldsack
F - Elliott White Grundy
R - Witts Pendlebury Greenwood
INT - Thomas Broomhead Fasolo Freeman

 

[Knightmare]

Agree here too 07 was the best team I've seen fielded. We lacked one thing and one thing only, a senior Ruckman. Josh and Guy just didn't cut it. Richards was too young to have an impact against the big Ottens.
On 15 I think we have a lot of youngish passengers on the list that have been recruited late in drafts. Seedsman Sinclair Thomas Williams even guys like Witts and Keeffe from NSW may not make it.

And even Josh missed that final v Geelong with the barely serviceable Guy Richards and Chris Bryan required to play in his place. We came only 5 points short in the end so add even Josh and someone else and take Richards and Bryan out of that team and we could well have made up those 5 points. But that's the way it goes.

My only criticism of that 2007 team is that guys were not quite at the right stages of their career. A large number of the younger guys really broke into their own that season but were not as good as they eventually would become through those 2010/2011 grand finals and those who were a part of the 2002/2003 grand finals were not as good in the most part.

But look at that list top to bottom and looking at their careers in totality with what those veterans had done and what those younger guys were going to go on to do, and there are more guys on that list who had really good AFL careers than we've probably had at any time in the history of the club (outside of the 1927-1930 teams). It was just a unique list in that way.

Regarding the new generation guys you mention potentially not making it. I don't see Sinclair as nearly good enough and I don't think Thomas will last long term either as a guy who just doesn't cover enough ground or have the footskills to be played ahead of our other mids. Keeffe given he is playing forward may well fail and really fall away after the promising signs he has shown down back in recent years and lose his confidence completely. Seedsman no guarantee he makes it, but he has enough talent to.

I can't agree on Williams or Witts though. Williams has already proven he is made of AFL stuff and is among our better players. He is a best 10 on list player. He can play anywhere - back where he is probably our best general defender, forward and midfield he has the attributes for. He can't kick but he has enough of everything else for it to be ok.
On Witts it's not a question of whether he will or will not make it but rather will he be the number one or two ruck option. I'd going the number two ruck option behind Grundy, when Grundy really comes on but with Witts while a poor tap ruckman his followup work makes up for it and would be among the best five in the game with his ability to followup and tackle. Add to that his competence forward of centre and he's good and only getting better.

 

[iGNITER]

Agree here too 07 was the best team I've seen fielded. We lacked one thing and one thing only, a senior Ruckman. Josh and Guy just didn't cut it. Richards was too young to have an impact against the big Ottens.
On 15 I think we have a lot of youngish passengers on the list that have been recruited late in drafts. Seedsman Sinclair Thomas Williams even guys like Witts and Keeffe from NSW may not make it.

Yep. One of my biggest memories of this game was Ottens dominating us.

 

[noideaatall]

Yep. One of my biggest memories of this game was Ottens dominating us.

My memories of the mm era are all about ruckmen dominating us when it counted, all except those last two years.