List Mgmt. Contracts, trades, draft - 2022 superstar edition

[Keys]

Link to contract status of all players -

The Contracts Thread

2024 List Changes : Out: Retired- Gaff Delisted - Jones, Trew(R), Baker(R), Witherden, Burgiel, Culley(R), Rotham, L Edwards Traded - Darling (NM) Barrass (Hawthorn) In: Trade/FA acquisitions - Graham (Richmond) Baker (Richmond) Owies (Carlton) Draft - Allan (Pick 16) Shanahan (Pick 30) Gross...

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[Priddis Is Done]

The Dogs are in dire need of a good key back. Their interest is based more on wishful thinking rather than any actual basis.

They should consider moving Naughton back, JHU, Bruce and Darcy as the key forwards next year.

Gov would be the more achievable pursuit, not that I'd want him to go.

5 year deal at $1M a year to prise him out of the state (and business interests) and pick 10 and say 25.

It would give food for thought to both Gov and the club.

Clubs are wasting their energy on Barass.

 

[CoastersFlag No.5]

Interesting analysis by Cal Twomey. Another Dandenong Stingray 194cm midfielder with good skill and pace Henry Hustwaite. Has had a growth spurt and could complement Culley.
Oli Hotton a medium forward who can play midfield performs really well as a goal kicking mid. Also Busslinger who has been exceptional down back for WA u19's. Could see us taking a risk like with Chesser but it's all speculative at this stage.

 

[Ochre]

Well, at least you admit it.

For mine, the only reason we've actually seen our list this year, or any youth, was because Simpsons hand was forced due to injuries and covid.

Once the old guard all get back, Sheed, Cole, Gov, Yeo, are all available it'll be back as close to the 2018 team as he can get it.



Prepare yourselves.

Hurn, Barrass, Edwards
Cole, McGovern, Duggan
Gaff, Yeo, Sheed
Cripps, Darling, Petrucelle
Ryan, Allen, Rioli

Naitanui, Kelly, Shuey

INT: Redden, Williams, Waterman, Jones

2023 AFL Masters Premiers

 

[Keys]

Wait, you're arguing we should keep Zane Trew on our list over Shuey? Langdon to the rookie list?

How about both of them go. Zane Trew struggles to get 15 touches in the WAFL. He can go. If he shows signs he can be picked up in future years for nothing.

Langdon, just buy out and kick him out. He's not AFL standard.

We can play more than 6 midfielders, that's half our problem so far.

Our forward line should be Rioli, Allen, Ryan, Cripps, Darling, plus midfielder (Shuey/Kelly/Sheed types swapping off half forward/mid), and two midfielders on the bench. That's 8 midfielders in the team. 16 games might be the upper limit of Shuey games next year, but if he's prpeared to know he's not guaranteed first choice that's fine.

I’d be more inclined to keep Winder than Trew but I doubt that changes your point.

The question is does 1 year of Shuey in a season that we likely finish bottom 6 of more value than giving a crack to a still developing player who might become a half decent contributor in the years ahead. Maybe he doesn’t come on and we delist him next year instead but what have we really lost ?

I’m no fan of Langdon but the reality is he’s contracted and paying him out to play for a WAFL side not named Beagles is pointless.

I’m not going to throw the toys out of the cot if Shuey plays on but I’d prefer to see him bow out whilst he’s still playing reasonable footy.

 

[briztoon]

This is my concern too - hence why I've been suggesting we retire a minimum of 1 of Hurn/Shuey/Redden this year and then the other 2 (plus likely Nic) next year.

Having them all around and available will pressure us into playing them. And they are (or will be) better options, they will perform better on the day, than younger kids. But we need to build for 2024-2027. We should be expecting a premiership in that timeframe (no 3-5 year rebuild that minnow clubs do. We have a history of expectation and entitlement, that to be honest has served us quite well).

Going to be some tough decisions at the end of the year, maybe some that surprise supporters and players, but it's now time to push forward with the list refresh/rebuild.

I’m sorry but .

If you rebuild through the draft, it takes those kids 6 to 8 years to get to a point where they are ready to genuinely challenge for a flag.

You currently don’t have have enough talent in the 21 to 25 age bracket who could lead you to a flag in 3 to 5 years.

So you’re going to have to trade in half a dozen A grade players in their prime, to genuinely challenge in 3 to 5 years.

And that’s not even taking in to consideration the other clubs that will be pushing for a flag in that time.

Or that Fremantle has drafted a significant portion of the top WA talent in recent years, so there’s only so much WA talent in other states to try and “bring home”, as tradeable targets.

 

[dinnaz]

Meanwhile Sheed is about to join this team again. With Shuey staying put that would means even less time for Culley, Clark and Chesser.

Ideally 2023 we play Chesser on a Wing or flank similar to Hough. Clark doesn't look like a keeper more like depth going ahead.
Lets see id Culley can play fwd so why not give him a 50/50 split in the middle over a full season?
Hurn should go as we have plenty of youth options and depth, but our midfield is trash so id keep Shuey for another year yet.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

2022: Shep, JK, Hurn/Shuey
2023: Hurn/Shuey, Nic Nat, Redden

This shouldn't be difficult

 

[Monocle]

Certainly a very precariously poised situation that the list manager faces at seasons end.
Just how the list gets altered will give us a much better indication of where our “brains trust” truely are with assessing the playing group.

Always a difficult and an emotionally taxing time when a Club has to call the end to one of its favourite sons.
This year the list manager needs to do that with several players …. do they stay or do they go ??????

Keys i thought your assessment a few pages back was pretty fair and on the money.

I also think that some of the spots that will be opened up will be due to several peripheral players requesting trades.

Let’s be brutally honest, who the * in their right mind would be happy at the prospects of playing at the Beagles for several weeks while waiting a call up.
The Beagles get smashed most weeks …. where is the fun playing in a team like that….. and more to the point it has the potential to delay player development.

Also the credits in the bank philosophy must have really pissed some of the younger players off.

No better example, IMO, of a young player being harshly treated by the match committee than XON who was unjustifiably dumped after the Collingwood game …. in which I thought he played his best game for the Club up to that point. He was dropped to make way for an out of form previously injured favourite son.

Also the Clubs relentless bull sh1t that they spin out also grates on me.

The line that Simpson spewed out a few weeks back ….. “we know where our list is at ….. we knew this was coming two years ago” …… oh F*** Off , that’s just unadulterated spin and bull shyte.

I ask you this:
If you genuinely knew that your list needed a thorough reboot two years ago…. Then who in their right mind would trade out two first rounders and two second rounders to pick up Kelly and a third rounder.

That just doesn’t pass the sniff test and if the hierarchy thought we would buy that steaming turd of a lie, then they are deluded.

That said, one thing that I will say is that on the two previous occasions when we needed a serious rebuild, we have done so spectacularly well.

Post the 94 Premiership we had a few okish years before we needed a rebuild and that culminated in a list that made two Grand Finals in 2005 and 2006.

Post the 06 Premiership we again had a few good years before we crashed and then once again needed a rebuild that lead us to two Grand Finals 2015 and 2018.

Post the 18 Premiership we got a bit lazy, complacent and sloppy, we also got creative in the blame game: hangovers, Hubs, Covid and Injuries.

So we now find our selves on the bottom end of a list and ladder swing.
I actually reckon that last year, was year one of our list rebuild.

So I am guesstimating that it will take us another three to four years to rebuild then a season or two to fine tune things - this is where we start trading in the missing pieces to fill the gaps in the list.
With us back being genuine contenders in 2028- 2030.

Seems like a hell of a along time away but I think that’s the timeframe that it will take.

 

[GlennTwenty]

Its hard to keep up with this thread for those of us that are too depressed to log on every day.
Miguel is in more skirmishes than Jackson Nelson

30

Jackson Nelson

Age

28

Ht

187cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.8

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.2

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

184.8

3star

D

14.8

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

4.8

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.3

3star

MG

171.8

3star

D

8.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

127.0

3star

during the Derby
Dark Sharks has come back more pessimistic than ep2006
Even Keys is waving his fists at clouds.

Anyone would think we embarassed outselves this year. Could be worse though, we could be Norf.

Someone please tag me when we re-sign Nelson so I can enjoy the melts.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

Post the 06 Premiership we again had a few good years

Did we?

 

[shooshka]

I’m sorry but .

If you rebuild through the draft, it takes those kids 6 to 8 years to get to a point where they are ready to genuinely challenge for a flag.

You currently don’t have have enough talent in the 21 to 25 age bracket who could lead you to a flag in 3 to 5 years.

So you’re going to have to trade in half a dozen A grade players in their prime, to genuinely challenge in 3 to 5 years.

And that’s not even taking in to consideration the other clubs that will be pushing for a flag in that time.

Or that Fremantle has drafted a significant portion of the top WA talent in recent years, so there’s only so much WA talent in other states to try and “bring home”, as tradeable targets.

And that is what other clubs do. Accept mediocrity.

Of course we don't have a premiership capable side/squad at the moment - but being happy with waiting 6-8 years is bollocks. Dogs must have missed that message drafting Bontempelli in 2013.

Collingwood, Melbourne, Carlton and even Brisbane are all examples of teams who have turned their fortunes around quickly. (we did it also in 2010/2011). They haven't all won flags, but have put themselves into a position to win a flag. (some with multiple years of high end picks, others not. But those teams with a lot of early picks also burnt quite a few with poor choices).

Yes, I have considered that other teams may also want to win a flag in 2023, then in 2024 and onwards... I'm not quite sure how to plan for this amazing turn of events

Sure, we would need some players on our list to show significant improvement (Allen, Hough, Chesser, Culley, one of the Williams or even better both), plus draft well this year and next, plus trade in 2-3 decent players. But it isn't as outlandish as you make it seem.

 

[WCE_Talk]

I’m sorry but .

If you rebuild through the draft, it takes those kids 6 to 8 years to get to a point where they are ready to genuinely challenge for a flag.

You currently don’t have have enough talent in the 21 to 25 age bracket who could lead you to a flag in 3 to 5 years.

So you’re going to have to trade in half a dozen A grade players in their prime, to genuinely challenge in 3 to 5 years.

And that’s not even taking in to consideration the other clubs that will be pushing for a flag in that time.

Or that Fremantle has drafted a significant portion of the top WA talent in recent years, so there’s only so much WA talent in other states to try and “bring home”, as tradeable targets.

Yeah because the club has a history of not staying down for long I think our fans are just presuming in 2-3 seasons we will be contending again but this will absolutely be our longest and toughest rebuild ever imo, our list is genuinely disgusting lol


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[Monocle]

Did we?

When you play finals that’s a good year IMO….. could we have done better ? …. absolutely, but that the curse that every one of our successful teams have shown.
Each of those great lists walked away with another Premiership in them.

The Rockstar adulation, that the Western Australian population afford them, after a Premiership has deluded the fire in the belly and the hunger for repeat ultimate success.

Look no further than Tom Barrass and his comments of being a bit of a let down and it being an anti climax after the Premiership success.

Conversely lists like : Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond had, have a core group that hung tuff and won not just one but three Premiership in a span of half a dozen years.

The 2006 list definitely had it in them but they partied like Rock Stars and f***** around like pr0n Stars after their on field success, to the demise of not only the team but The Entire Club.

 

[JackOutback]

I’m sorry but .

If you rebuild through the draft, it takes those kids 6 to 8 years to get to a point where they are ready to genuinely challenge for a flag.

You currently don’t have have enough talent in the 21 to 25 age bracket who could lead you to a flag in 3 to 5 years.

So you’re going to have to trade in half a dozen A grade players in their prime, to genuinely challenge in 3 to 5 years.

And that’s not even taking in to consideration the other clubs that will be pushing for a flag in that time.

Or that Fremantle has drafted a significant portion of the top WA talent in recent years, so there’s only so much WA talent in other states to try and “bring home”, as tradeable targets.

We did it in 2000 (first year missing the finals, grand final in 2005), and 2008 (first year missing finals, prelim in 2011). What other clubs do and what we as fans expect is different.

 

[Keys]

Also the Clubs relentless bull sh1t that they spin out also grates on me.

The line that Simpson spewed out a few weeks back ….. “we know where our list is at ….. we knew this was coming two years ago” …… oh F*** Off , that’s just unadulterated spin and bull shyte.

I ask you this:
If you genuinely knew that your list needed a thorough reboot two years ago…. Then who in their right mind would trade out two first rounders and two second rounders to pick up Kelly and a third rounder.

I’ve pulled out this bit as it’s the bit I’m somewhat at odds with

The Kelly trade was 2019 which is now 3 years, albeit it did compromise our 2020 draft as well as 2019. It was a throw at the stumps to snag another premiership whilst the core of our 2018 side was still at our near their prime. For a variety of reasons that have been extensively discussed on this board we missed the stumps

Clearly we prioritised the draft last year and made a pretty good fist of it with the picks we had

As for the we knew 2 years ago comment from Simpson I have a theory I’m working on that might support that. I’m working on 2 years ago being 2020 in case there’s any confusion

I think at that time we still believed, with some justification, that we had a side that could challenge for another year or two, but could see the window was closing as the group of players we brought in during 2005-10 were nearing the end.

Unfortunately for the club that didn’t eventuate and this year due in part to covid and injury the window slammed shut earlier and much harder than anticipated.

Despite that I still think that two years ago the club may well have been planning for a drop off and here’s why I think that might have been the case

We know that Simpson’s contract was extended until 2025 in late 2020 (2 years ago) and that the club kept quiet about it. Even when in mid 2021 when it was erroneously reported to be 2024 they didn’t correct it, and haven’t officially acknowledged the extension at any stage

My theory, which is a work in progress, is that they were aware of a coming decline and, knowing that, they moved to put a long term contract in place that would mitigate outside pressure to sack the coach they wanted to lead the rebuild. Consider how little noise there is about Simpson when compared to other coaches, primarily because of the length of tenure he has and what I said makes some sense

Now I’m not saying that my theory was a good idea or that it’s even true, but if they were planning ahead for a downturn like Simpson has claimed then securing the coach without fanfare would be the sort of thing you’d put in place

Or maybe that’s all BS, but I do think they saw the cliff coming albeit not as soon or as far down

 

[AsterixTheGaul]

There are two aspects to whether or not one or all of Hurn/Shuey/Redden should retire.

Firstly, if they continue they take up a list spot that would otherwise be filled by a fringe/developing player or late draft or rookie pick. This is what it means :

We have 28 players with a contract for 2023 or beyond. One of those (Culley) is on the rookie list so there’s 27 main list players.

Leaves 11 main list and 3 rookie list spots available to be filled through a combination of trades, draft and re-signings.

I’d be wanting to use a minimum of 4 draft picks - currently 2,20,26,38. With our next pick not until 74 I think we’d be better going to the rookie draft/SSP to pick at least 2 players on 1 year contracts.

That would leave 7 main list and 1 rookie spot open for the current 15 players without a contract to be given a new contract

Rioli, Naitanui and Jones should be renewed. I don’t think that’s controversial given Naitanui is required due to the dearth of AFL ready ruck options we have. Jones will need to be upgraded to the main list since he’s been on the rookie list for the maximum allowable 3 years

So four green bottles sitting on the wall (which can be increased to 5 by placing Langdon on the rookie list) with 12 players at the bar

So this is where the crunch comes. If all 3 veterans sign on, there’s only 2 spots left

Forward/rucks - Williams, Dixon
Backs - Witherden, Nelson
Mids - West, Trew, Joyce, Winder, Naish

Ruck stocks dictate one of Williams or Dixon need to be kept
Hurn continuing is a certain death warrant for Witherden and Nelson
Naish and Joyce are out meaning only one of West, Trew or Winder gets to stay.

Shuey staying on ends the career of one of those three. That’s the reality and people can make their own minds if that’s reasonable

Obviously this changes if one (or more) players ask to be traded out

The second part of the veterans playing on is the games they play in 2023 which will decrease the opportunity for younger players to get exposure at AFL level

Hurn playing most likely takes potential games away from the likes of HEdwards, Bazzo and Foley. In a functional WAFL side HEdwards and Bazzo can still get good experience leading the backline whilst providing injury cover for the seniors. Foley I’m not too fussed about

Of the usual six midfield positions, Kelly, Sheed and probably Gaff take 3. Leaves 3 spots for Shuey, O’Neill, Chesser, Hough, Culley, Redden, LEdwards, Pick 2, Clark and SPS to fight over. That’s 10 players without considering Yeo who I’m playing off half back. So if Shuey plays say 16 games, that’s 16 games of development we’re taking away from those younger players

I’ve flip flopped on the veterans continuing and more recently have been ok with them all going on

Redden I’m happy with because he’s on a low salary from what we know and has expressed an acceptance his time in the seniors might be limited. On that basis he’s a good low cost option to lead the WAFL midfield whilst providing an experienced back up if and when required

Hurn, based on this years form I’m ok with because I think Bazzo as a KPD can still learn what he needs to at WAFL level

Shuey is far harder to justify. We need to be accelerating the development of our young mids and, since I think West is the most likely to get a new contract of the 3 I mentioned, it means Winder or Trew miss out. That’d be a real shame if Shuey’s body fails him

If we’re genuine about a rebuild it’s time for Shuey to call time

Good summary and it show our quandary. I would like to think that a conversation with Hurn and Shuey about some WAFL needs to take place as it has already with Redden. Again, salary should reflect this. We obviously run the risk of someone offering a 2 year contract but I'd take the risk. It is not an insult paying low - it is a reality check of having loaded up for a second tilt and it not working.

The other part about the selection is that of starting to fix our salary cap. Hurn and Shuey will definitely need to take a haircut and between them drop $500k (Redden I believe has already done this). Likewise NicNat takes a haircut more reflecting his TOG.

I am not that convinced with West. Yes I like his attack on the contest but he and Clark are level pegging and I think he is vulnerable. I would personally like to see if Winder can make it but that is probably more wishful thinking because of his speed and agility.

What might save Shuey will be anyone asking for a trade and then I would look for improving our draft pick (eg Rotham and 38 become 27).

I think we also need to look at the merry-go-round of rucks. I would be OK trading Bailey if we pick up a Sweat or Meeks. I sense one of Williams or Jamieson plus a solid backup would work alongside NicNat. I have also tinkered with the idea of rucking Gov and resting him forward.

I actually think we should go to the AFL along with Freo with a request that the WA clubs get 2 more list spots (can be rookies but not count to salary cap) to reflect the increased likelihood of sustained injury due to travel requirements.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Are we allowed to call the Kelly trade a failure yet?


3 seasons in, we've played finals once and got punted straight out.

Missed finals the following year

And now coming off arguably the worst session in club history, barely avoiding the spoon.

 

[Rowan18]

Yeah because the club has a history of not staying down for long I think our fans are just presuming in 2-3 seasons we will be contending again but this will absolutely be our longest and toughest rebuild ever imo, our list is genuinely disgusting lol


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The list at the end of 07 was worse. No KPF of any note, Glass the only gun KPD (McKenzie was on the list but was a rookiee), midfield pretty bare except for Kerr (who was injured a lot from 08-10).

It turned around by drafting/trading some good kids that came on quick (JK, Shuey, Nic Nat, Gaff, Darling), unearthing/developing existing talent (Hurn, EMac, Schofield, Pridda, Lecca) and getting the vets fit for a couple of seasons.

Everyone is acting like our list has no talent at all. We know the following can perform at a high level when fit and will be with us for a few more seasons at least: TB, Gov, Yeo, TK, Ryan, Rioli, Sheed, Darling, Allen. We also have a bunch of role players to fill out other spots: Cole, Duggan, Petrol, Waterman.

Whether we bounce back quickly depends on how quick the young guys can fill the remaining spots. Midfield and ruck are really the only two areas we are desperate for. This could be solved quickly If we got Yeo fit, traded in an emerging player that takes the next step and draft a young gun that steps up, we could be in the mix in a season or two.

It won't be a long peak (we would have to drop down sooner or later to draft replacements for JD, Gov etc), but I don't see us having to embark on a 6 year rebuild.

 

[Rowan18]

Are we allowed to call the Kelly trade a failure yet?


3 seasons in, we've played finals once and got punted straight out.

Missed finals the following year

And now coming off arguably the worst session in club history, barely avoiding the spoon.

We would be absolutely rooted without him in our midfield. At least he fills one onballer spot for several more seasons while we get the new guys in. I'm happy we have him.

Did we pay too much? I think that is borderline and we probably did overpay a bit. However, it's not like we gave up two top 10 selections. I'm yet to see anything amazing that the players selected with those choices have done.

 

[MrWoollie]

Are we allowed to call the Kelly trade a failure yet?


3 seasons in, we've played finals once and got punted straight out.

Missed finals the following year

And now coming off arguably the worst session in club history, barely avoiding the spoon.

There has never been a question of whether we overpaid or not, but it has now become the question you ask. Is it a failure?

I have to think it has been. We didn't get a run at a premiership, we lost out on a number of draft picks and we now sit at the bottom of the heap with the worst midfield in the competition.

In fact, the question becomes not is it a failure, but is it a failure of Fremantlesqe proportions?

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Are we allowed to call the Kelly trade a failure yet?


3 seasons in, we've played finals once and got punted straight out.

Missed finals the following year

And now coming off arguably the worst session in club history, barely avoiding the spoon.

It was a punt that didn’t come off.

Does that make it a failure? I guess so.

 

[Obeanie1]

An aunt who will buy your booze when under age, will pick you when plastered up and cover for you when your parents call saying you are asleep, has the odd durry and happy to share one with you, etc .

A really great aunt. John Snow votes for...........

 

[Keys]

Are we allowed to call the Kelly trade a failure yet?


3 seasons in, we've played finals once and got punted straight out.

Missed finals the following year

And now coming off arguably the worst session in club history, barely avoiding the spoon.

Short answer is yes

The trade was always going to be judged on whether we won a flag or not. We haven’t and barring a miracle probably won’t whilst he’s at the club so on that measure it’s a failure

Doesn’t mean the trade was a mistake as it was worth a swing, it just didn’t work out due to factors other than that trade

And all things being equal, the players we brought in with those picks we traded would have been no guarantee to stop the decline we’re having. They may have softened the blow somewhat and made the road ahead a little less bleak but you can’t pin our current position on the Kelly trade

You can call it a failure though

*No Kelly and we wouldn’t have been in a position to draft Culley which saw you disappear for a while so that’s one upside to the trade

 

[Dark Sharks]

Well less of the fact we not only didn't get a flag from it.. but we have honestly not even been in the ball park.

We haven't even contended as a side since 2019.

Being so far off the mark on that one is a real punch to the testys.

 

[Obeanie1]

I’m sorry but .

If you rebuild through the draft, it takes those kids 6 to 8 years to get to a point where they are ready to genuinely challenge for a flag.

You currently don’t have have enough talent in the 21 to 25 age bracket who could lead you to a flag in 3 to 5 years.

So you’re going to have to trade in half a dozen A grade players in their prime, to genuinely challenge in 3 to 5 years.

And that’s not even taking in to consideration the other clubs that will be pushing for a flag in that time.

Or that Fremantle has drafted a significant portion of the top WA talent in recent years, so there’s only so much WA talent in other states to try and “bring home”, as tradeable targets.

How long did it take Collingwood again? How about Geelong?

Eagles hit the draft with top picks for mids and flankers. They don't take as long to impact. Trade in 22 yr old fringe types like Robertson with later picks adding depth.

End of 2024 English is a FA and we will have a bucket load of cash. And we are talking buckets.

And Logan McDonald will also be out of contract. Picks will be needed there.

Talls take much longer, especially rucks. So we trade for those at the end of 2024 / 2025.