Review Good/Bad/Ugly vs Hawthorn and their Umpires

[feenix67]

Oh god. How embarrassing.

To have shots at intelligence thrown by someone who just pushed the argument that each team has as 1/18 chance of winning the premiership every year. Its difficult to imagine a more foolish contention.

Premiership chances are not random chance. Teams do not start the season with the same odds of winning. If you don't start with this contention: 'that whether a club succeeds or fails is the result of that club's actions and decisions', then you have absolutely no right to talk about depth of thought, analysis or fact based evidence. You're living with the pixies.

Go to your room

 

[Southerntakeover]

Go to your room

Premierships are the product of pure chance. It's like spinning a wheel really.

 

[GreyCrow]

Premierships are the product of pure chance. It's like spinning a wheel really.

Then Hawthorn have rigged the wheel

 

[Big Gazoongas]

It's not faulty logic at all. You can learn something about an inability to handle pressure from those games, you just can't find out whether you can handle the greatest pressure.

The thing is though, if you can't handle a lower level of pressure you can't handle the higher level.

If I can't hang in the ring with the best boxer at the local gym because when it gets rough I drop my head, it's a pretty fair indicator that I can't take Mayweather.

So if you can't handle lower level pressure you can't handle higher level pressure....mmm
Well do you remember the 1998 finals series were we got flogged by Melbourne in the elimination final, care to tell us how that ended for the Crows?

 

[feenix67]

Premierships are the product of pure chance. It's like spinning a wheel really.

I'm actually wondering what you'd like to see happen, STO. Should we do a Port fan imitation and not turn up? We know your position, positions are easy to take. But what's your solution?

 

[Mattrox]

oops wrong thread

 

[Southerntakeover]

I'm actually wondering what you'd like to see happen, STO. Should we do a Port fan imitation and not turn up? We know your position, positions are easy to take. But what's your solution?

I'm a sucker for punishment. I'll be there even when we're rubbish.

As far as I can the response starts quite simply.

1. Acnknowledge that losing these sorts of games is a problem, and it's not random chance, bad luck, a positive experience, or a learning opportunity. Make sure it's entirely clear throughout the entire club that these losses are not acceptable, and that if it gets churned up on the field there are consequences.

2. After you accept that losing these games is a matter of fault, rather than a random occurrence or jolly good effort really, then you can start to identify why you keep losing these games. Is it a mental hurdle, or are there players who are simply not up to standing up under the top notch pressure but otherwise look like good players?

If you form the view that the latter might be the case, I take the Malthouse view that you should move those players on, and get whatever value you can for them. I have said earlier, I think we now need to have question marks over Brodie Smith and Laird. Would watch their performances in whatever big games we get for the rest of the year closely.

3. Membership voting rights, and actual accountability in club structures.

 

[Southerntakeover]

So if you can't handle lower level pressure you can't handle higher level pressure....mmm
Well do you remember the 1998 finals series were we got flogged by Melbourne in the elimination final, care to tell us how that ended for the Crows?

That was a team that had already proven they could handle the big stage. Bit asinine of a comparison.

 

[Big Gazoongas]

That was a team that had already proven they could handle the big stage. Bit asinine of a comparison.

No, it just doesn't suit your point.

As I've said before we are building. New coach, new method and game plan.

Im hoping this game is a pivital game for our club to improve and move forward for success.

 

[Carmo]

I'm actually wondering what you'd like to see happen, STO. Should we do a Port fan imitation and not turn up? We know your position, positions are easy to take. But what's your solution?

He won't state anything in advance, too easy being captain hindsight and queen negative.

I'm still waiting for the answer to my questions for him about where he thinks we'll finish this year and what games remaining this year are "big games we need to win" to get rid of our also ran tag. I asked for them about 20 pages ago in this thread.

He'd still complain we're nothing special even if we had a 5-peat.

 

[Southerntakeover]

He won't state anything in advance, too easy being captain hindsight and queen negative.

I'm still waiting for the answer to my questions for him about where he thinks we'll finish this year and what games remaining this year are "big games we need to win" to get rid of our also ran tag. I asked for them about 20 pages ago in this thread.

He'd still complain we're nothing special even if we had a 5-peat.

Oh my gosh... You asked for them? You?

How could I have overlooked such an important request?

I've answered atleast one of those questions. I don't think there's another game on the calendar comparable to the one we lost on Friday.

 

[Southerntakeover]

No, it just doesn't suit your point.

As I've said before we are building. New coach, new method and game plan.

Im hoping this game is a pivital game for our club to improve and move forward for success.

It doesn't suit any point. It's a poor analogy.

A team that doesn't have a history of success on the big stage cannot treat losses in smaller finals the same way that a team who has the cups in their pocket can.

That's so obvious that I'm stunned that I've had to explain it.

 

[jenny61_99]

Ohhhhh, here I was thinking you were intelligent, just jaded. I've overestimated the former, clearly.

Im not sure how you got the rotating premiership theory from my previous post. Each year, we have a one in 18th chance. Therefore, your negative position has a 95% chance of being fulfilled each year. As I said, it's a pretty comfortable bunker from where to be firing shots

The strawman is using "he's elite". He's elite now, was he elite at the same stage of his career? Of course not. You can't make a call about Charlie either way, at this stage of his career. Unless of course, you're a pessimist

My "line" is that you're an emotional man. Every post is dripping with emotive negativity. There's no depth of thought, analysis, fact based evidence - just a string of teary negative rhetoric held together by loose correlations formed to underpin your narrative. You introduce assumptions to seperate yourself from the masses, such as "we accept mediocrity", when, in fact, the overwhelming majority of supporters dont. Given that BigFooty has a fair cross section of the general demographic, it's fair to say that the same is true here. But you cant go getting all hissy fit about failure, in a sport where the odds of failure are so high. And, if you choose to do so, at least give yourself some pseudo credibility by being around during the wins as well as the losses.

Emotion and objectivity are not happy partners, STO. Given the consistently emotive content you produce on here, it's hard to see you as objective.

Eddie himself has said Charlie is better now than he was at the same age. Pretty high praise.

 

[Big Gazoongas]

It doesn't suit any point. It's a poor analogy.

A team that doesn't have a history of success on the big stage cannot treat losses in smaller finals the same way that a team who has the cups in their pocket can.

That's so obvious that I'm stunned that I've had to explain it.

Oh don't be ridiculous. So now you're claiming the Crows of 98 where coming into a finals series on the back of a history of succes, most absurd thing I have read to back up your argument........the current Hawks have a history of success.

If your going to puff your chest out and make out that your intellect is on another level you may want to post something of substance, so far it's lacking badly.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Oh don't be ridiculous. So now you're claiming the Crows of 98 where coming into a finals series on the back of a history of succes, most absurd thing I have read to back up your argument........the current Hawks have a history of success.

If your going to puff your chest out and make out that your intellect is on another level you may want to post something of substance, so far it's lacking badly.

That the Crows were coming into 1998 with a history of premiership success is not even contentious. They were the reigning premiers.

What is wrong with you?

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

 

[feenix67]

Oh don't be ridiculous. So now you're claiming the Crows of 98 where coming into a finals series on the back of a history of succes, most absurd thing I have read to back up your argument........the current Hawks have a history of success.

If your going to puff your chest out and make out that your intellect is on another level you may want to post something of substance, so far it's lacking badly.

The funny thing is, the Crows of the previous year were carrying the baggage of 93, and had proved nothing during the season. It's a marathon not a sprint, and there's only one game that matters

 

[feenix67]

I'm a sucker for punishment. I'll be there even when we're rubbish.

As far as I can the response starts quite simply.

1. Acnknowledge that losing these sorts of games is a problem, and it's not random chance, bad luck, a positive experience, or a learning opportunity. Make sure it's entirely clear throughout the entire club that these losses are not acceptable, and that if it gets churned up on the field there are consequences.

2. After you accept that losing these games is a matter of fault, rather than a random occurrence or jolly good effort really, then you can start to identify why you keep losing these games. Is it a mental hurdle, or are there players who are simply not up to standing up under the top notch pressure but otherwise look like good players?

If you form the view that the latter might be the case, I take the Malthouse view that you should move those players on, and get whatever value you can for them. I have said earlier, I think we now need to have question marks over Brodie Smith and Laird. Would watch their performances in whatever big games we get for the rest of the year closely.

3. Membership voting rights, and actual accountability in club structures.

Fair points, but there's no evidence that point 1. isn't a view shared by the club (nor point 2 for that matter), and point 2 is a matter of conjecture, given the names you dropped. Our team is young and is adapting to a 4th game plan 5 years. There was massive improvement in many aspects of our game friday night, not least of which was our ability to absorb pressure and find a way. Looking at the replay, I'm forming in my view that we lacked on field leadership in those last minutes, which I do think is a problem.

As for point 3, I'm neither here nor there on it, as I doubt it would impact on field performance, but that's just my opinion.

I enjoy this mode of discussion far more.

 

[Carmo]

Oh my gosh... You asked for them? You?

How could I have overlooked such an important request?

I've answered atleast one of those questions. I don't think there's another game on the calendar comparable to the one we lost on Friday.

Hmm, how convenient, we shall review in 10 rounds time, perhaps WC late in the year might be one.

Still, noticed you're avoiding the where we'll finish question, you don't want to say high, because that defeats your own argument, you don't want to say low because its looking like that wont be the case and you know you'll get shown up.

After you finally get around to answering that second one, also I want your predictions for next year and the one after. After you do that, I'll put yours and mine in the humungous predictions thread and we'll see who gets bragging rights.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Hmm, how convenient, we shall review in 10 rounds time, perhaps WC late in the year might be one.

Still, noticed you're avoiding the where we'll finish question, you don't want to say high, because that defeats your own argument, you don't want to say low because its looking like that wont be the case and you know you'll get shown up.

After you finally get around to answering that second one, also I want your predictions for next year and the one after. After you do that, I'll put yours and mine in the humungous predictions thread and we'll see who gets bragging rights.

Now that you've finished framing your demands, can you get to the reason why I'd bother?

 

[fairfooty]

Has anyone ever done an independent study on match results v umpires? Or something similar? Would have thought it wouldn't be that hard to do? And might give us an indication one way or another whether these perceptions of bias are possibly valid and worth a deeper look.

And if as the AFL says all is squeaky clean, then they have nothing to fear and everything to gain. Is there a stats guru amongst us who could have a look?

 

[Glenno23]

View attachment 239279

I just put that in the non crows thread before seeing this!

Lol

 

[Carmo]

Now that you've finished framing your demands, can you get to the reason why I'd bother?

so that tenous 1% of credibility you have isnt eroded to 0%. Doesn't bother me actually. We each create our own reputation don't we. I'm happy with mine.

 

[Southerntakeover]

so that tenous 1% of credibility you have isnt eroded to 0%. Doesn't bother me actually. We each create our own reputation don't we. I'm happy with mine.

It's a really strange sense of entitlement. You just start making random demands of people, and think that they're going to be bothered entertaining you.

 

[beartoo]

Ah, c'mon, both do it. The humongous predictions thread could use a bit of long-term rivalry for us all to look forward to. The answers at season's end. Bragging rights to winner.