LIVE Federal Election Coverage 2016

[volcboy]

About as useful as this

It's actually a lot more useful than that if you bother to read the article. I guess you bow down to Antony Green when he predicts a Coalition victory, but rubbish him when his opinion disagrees with yours. It's known as cognitive dissonance, if you're interested.

 

[The Speaker]

I don't believe in group think at that level.

Why not?

 

[Maggie5]

Why not?

Too many independent thinkers, place for exploring many ideas.

 

[The Speaker]

Too many independent thinkers, place for exploring many ideas.

I'm afraid that's a rather dated view of university.

 

[Blueboys11]

It is actually all about education levels; the higher the level of education an individual has obtained, the more likely they are to vote Green.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen...or-geographic-and-educational-dimensions.html

What if we were to remove those who have arts degrees from that graph??

 

[Blueboys11]

This is a very antiquated attitude. Catch up. I know so many 'oldies' who vote Greens, and I expect that demographic to increase, not decline.

Why has the greens vote basically not moved for 10 years then? On current trends, One Nation will be running the country in 20 years

 

[volcboy]

What if we were to remove those who have arts degrees from that graph??

...then Kooyong and Ryan would probably have half as many higher degrees - plenty of princesses and wannabe poets coming out of the rich independent schools

 

[Demosthenes]

I only have a go at people who try to pass off personal opinion as fact. I answered your query with a number of reasons why groups who may benefit from a social justice policy may not choose or be in the position to support it. You have done nothing to refute those points or provided any support for your opinion.

I haven't expressed an opinion. I am merely pointing out a problem with your logic.

The second point you cited in your last post was that those of a lower socioeconomic status cannot afford the luxury of voting against their short term self-interest. This is something I very much agree with, but it merely brings us back to the question how you can claim that the Greens advocate on behalf of such people when you acknowledge this harm. If your response is "well it would help them in the long term even if there is short term harm" - who are you to make that trade-off for them, when they themselves are opposed to it by virtue of their vote?

This is a real problem that the Greens need to address. It is difficult to claim legitimacy as an advocate for a demographic that overwhelmingly does not support you. At a certain point you need to make a choice - are they right, or are you? The former requires a policy rethink. The latter attitude has some pretty disturbing implications in a democracy.

 

[Pessimistic]

So, no change in the bigfooty aus politics forum benches

 

[GreyCrow]

So, no change in the bigfooty aus politics forum benches

Breeze has dropped for a while and not sure many goals will be scored this quarter. Might be one or two interchanges , but no outs yet

 

[volcboy]

This is a real problem that the Greens need to address. It is difficult to claim legitimacy as an advocate for a demographic that overwhelmingly does not support you. At a certain point you need to make a choice - are they right, or are you? The former requires a policy rethink. The latter attitude has some pretty disturbing implications in a democracy.

As someone who has worked in education at Tertiary and Secondary level in many different contexts, I can say from experience that the central issue to your point is education. Education is the key by which an individual can lift themselves out, both economically and cognitively, of their situation. However, it isn't as simple as all that, as the most accurate predictor of educational success isn't the standard of a school a student attends, but their socioeconomic status and social conditions. As an educator, have I worked to try and illuminate paths for my students to see that there is more to their reality than day-to-day survival and self-interest? Yes I have. Is it always successful? No, it is not. Is it 'disturbing' to have the aspiration to envisage a society in which the average individual, regardless of socioeconomic background, is afforded a social and educational basis to more fully understand the societal, political, economic and environmental impacts that dictate their own situation and that of their offspring? You seem to think that it is.

It is my opinion, based on my experiences and education, that we, as a society (first), a civilisation (second) and a species (third) are to progress and evolve beyond where we currently stand, it can only occur through social cohesion and a logical, wholistic view of how the reality around us exists. These are not easy concepts to understand or grasp, but when you manage to do so, you see that our current capitalist sociopolitical systems, based on a crude and borrowed form of Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' inequality, are not equal to this task.

It is quite clear that, although some sections of society are not able to understand in detail the intricacies that hold them in their positions within society, that this is changing. If you go back to my post showing the booths where the Greens have won the most first preference votes, these have spread from 'traditional' intellectual booths in Melbourne to the more traditional areas west of the Maribyrnong River and north into 1st and 2nd generation Mediterranean immigrant suburbs such as Preston.

If you are interested; no, I am not a member of the Greens. I consider myself a post-political anarchist, due to the fact that I cannot see that the current corporate-capitalist-political control system is adequate to face the current challenges of our planet. If we are to evolve as a society, it will have to be totally removed and replaced with something more sophisticated. Most think this unlikely, but every sociopolitical system and civilisation in history (and there have been many) has fallen, and it is pure hubris to think that Western capitalism is any different. It is already crumbling. What will replace it? Who knows.

 

[Demosthenes]

Is it 'disturbing' to have the aspiration to envisage a society in which the average individual, regardless of socioeconomic background, is afforded a social and educational basis to more fully understand the societal, political, economic and environmental impacts that dictate their own situation and that of their offspring? You seem to think that it is.

I think it is disturbing to take the position that you know better than a fellow citizen what is good for them. Proposing and advocating a policy is one thing - claiming to speak on behalf of people who actively oppose you is quite another. Plenty of dictatorships have cloaked themselves in such rationalisations.

I appreciate the diversity that the Greens bring to the political landscape, but they need revisit either who or what they represent. If they are genuinely interested in representing the interests of those of lower socioeconomic status (and indeed I believe they are) then they need to sit down and give some real thought to why those people actively shun them. Then maybe think about altering their policy in a way that makes it more acceptable to the people that they say they want to help.

That may not be acceptable to someone of your political views, but it is the only acceptable approach for a power-wielding party in a democracy.

 

[volcboy]

I think it is disturbing to take the position that you know better than a fellow citizen what is good for them. Proposing and advocating a policy is one thing - claiming to speak on behalf of people who actively oppose you is quite another. Plenty of dictatorships have cloaked themselves in such rationalisations.

I never claimed to know better than fellow citizens - those are your words. I simply said that education is the key - with knowledge comes understanding, and because everybody has different knowledge, their perception of the world will be different.

I never claimed to be speaking on behalf of other people - those are your words again. I simply pointed out that education is a way for people to find their own voice.

I stated that I am an anarchist, which is the opposite of being a dictator. Anarchism means accepting no leaders, so I am as far from advocating for dictatorship as it is possible to be.

You put words in my mouth, set me up to be other than what I am (or don't understand my point at all) then claim that I am the one that likes 'verballing' people. You should look in the mirror first, champ.

 

[Demosthenes]

Quite obviously the pronoun was being used in the abstract - the post was quite clearly about the Greens (indeed as all preceding ones were), and you have already disassociated yourself from them.

Nice way to divert attention from the subject though, I guess.

 

[The Edukator]

I've backed my suggestions and conclusions up with articles and figures. What have you got?

From a purely anecdotal pov as someone in his mid 20s that has peers renting in inner city places the trend I've seen is definitely the more educated ones voting the majors, the less educated and social justice warriors greens.

 

[volcboy]

From a purely anecdotal pov as someone in his mid 20s that has peers renting in inner city places the trend I've seen is definitely the more educated ones voting the majors, the less educated and social justice warriors greens.

Roy Morgan research, sample size 87,416

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/party-vote-by-professions-december-2012-201306140318

 

[Pessimistic]

Preferential voting always tempts people to minor parties

 

[CM86]

Roy Morgan research, sample size 87,416

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/party-vote-by-professions-december-2012-201306140318

Did you not see the anecdotal evidence from the Liberal supporter that was posted five minutes before this?

Take your roymorgan stats and evidence and get the hell out of here!!!!

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Roy Morgan research, sample size 87,416

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/party-vote-by-professions-december-2012-201306140318

Social professors number 1? Hardly surprising.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Do we have a winner yet?

 

[GreyCrow]

Do we have a winner yet?

Katter and McGowan by the looks of things

 

[Procrastinator35]

Katter and McGowan by the looks of things

So educate me....Does that mean more tax cuts for the rich & the loss of penalty rates for us workers, in order to finance them, or Not?

 

[GreyCrow]

So educate me....Does that mean more tax cuts for the rich & the loss of penalty rates for us workers, in order to finance them, or Not?

Lots of pork

 

[JackOutback]

Lots of pork

Pauline Hanson likes this.

 

[Blueboys11]

Roy Morgan research, sample size 87,416

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/party-vote-by-professions-december-2012-201306140318

What is a social professional? Is that another term for a professional activist with no real employment? Serious question