Matthew Pavlich, Nick Riewoldt or Jonathan Brown

[wazzaisachamp]

Tredrea. No bias though.

 

[SouthSwans]

I'd say pure ability win games. Guys like Hird had no intimidation factor but he was one of the best match winners of all time. Intimidation is bluff most of the time.

Agreed, look at Hall.

 

[sainter35]

Huge fan of all three...simply goes on form and right now Riewoldt is #1. Earnt it in the toughest position on the ground, consistent performances, big finals form and damn good leadership.
We can argue all day who is the better but right now i've got Riewoldt and Brown in the top 3 players in the game. When u consider difficulty of position u could argue those two are the #1 players going around.
Nothing seperates all three ..u simply need to respect FORM..its undeniable as the seasons go by.

Brown and Riewoldt are proving themselves as big name big game players...Pav simply needs a new team

The End. Great post.

Seriously week in week out Riewoldt performs - Browne can go awol and Pavlich IMO isnt a TRUE CHF (WHICH THE OP WANTS??).

Pavlich to me is the James Hird utility type - not comparable with the other 2 at all.

Regardless, on CONSISTENCY PER GAME none of them get near Riewoldt.

 

[sainter35]

Right now its Riewoldt without a doubt...At his peak Browne was incredible

Over a career it has to be Pavlich.

Considering what we know now...If all three were 17 yo kids up for draft it would be a tough call.

I may be biased but while the other two have had down or quieter years, Pavlich seems to step up and perform every year..He is the kind of player a team can win a flag with..bottom out..rebuild and have another crack with with. Unfortunate that we missed the mark the first generation and he is relying on the second generation to get him there.

How can it be Pavlich over their "career" when Roo/Browne at least have the runs on the board (Riewoldt especially) in finals?

Facts are they ARE the biggest stage.......until he does something in them Pav IMO is behind the others .

 

[AG]

How can it be Pavlich over their "career" when Roo/Browne at least have the runs on the board (Riewoldt especially) in finals?

Facts are they ARE the biggest stage.......until he does something in them Pav IMO is behind the others .

Why should that matter? Not his fault he has played in an ordinary team for the majority of his career. Pavlich probably is just ahead of the other two based on career form.

 

[estibador]

Facts are they ARE the biggest stage.......until he does something in them Pav IMO is behind the others .

In his biggest game to date (the 2006 prelim) Pav had 17 touches, 10 marks and 4 goals from CHF.

Considering that's only 1 goal and a couple of touches off that apparently amazing Reiwoldt QF that the whole football world was orgasming over last year I'd say Pav has done ok with the chances he's had on the big stage.

 

[The Fireman]

Without a doubt,

 

[sainter35]

In his biggest game to date (the 2006 prelim) Pav had 17 touches, 10 marks and 4 goals from CHF.

Considering that's only 1 goal and a couple of touches off that apparently amazing Reiwoldt QF that the whole football world was orgasming over last year I'd say Pav has done ok with the chances he's had on the big stage.

Problem is Riewoldt backed up last years game with 4 second half goals to kick our side (including the winning goal) into this years GF?

Again, Pavlich is a utility - he DOES NOT play week in week out at CHF aka Riwoldt/Browne - thats not his fault and its an attribute but this threads comparing CHF. IMO Pavlich is a part timer at this.

 

[estibador]

Why should that matter? Not his fault he has played in an ordinary team for the majority of his career. Pavlich probably is just ahead of the other two based on career form.

Exactly. If Pav had played as many finals as the others but underperformed in them then this sort of argument would have merit.

Otherwise all it proves is Riewoldt and Brown have played in better teams than Pav.

 

[AG]

Again, Pavlich is a utility - he DOES NOT play week in week out at CHF aka Riwoldt/Browne - thats not his fault and its an attribute but this threads comparing CHF. IMO Pavlich is a part timer at this.

That's a fair point. For pure CHF's Tredrea should be the other player in the trio but his current form isn't near Riewoldt or Brown.

 

[sainter35]

Why should that matter? Not his fault he has played in an ordinary team for the majority of his career. Pavlich probably is just ahead of the other two based on career form.

How can it not matter?

You play the game to get your team to the ultimate prize which can only occure through the biggest games, with the most intensity when everything (your season) is upfor grabs........it aint fair but again, how can a player who has hardly played in a Final be "proven" to be ahead of 2 TRUE CHF's that have perfomed under the most pressure (Finals) and delivered?

Riewoldt has already PROVEN himself a match winner in multiple finals series now (ask Collingwood/Bulldogs...)....whats Pav done in this area?

Ofcourse it not Pavs fault.....its not Rob Harveys fault he doesnt have a Premiership medal....thats life....BUT there is no question that performances in Finals are a MUST if you are going to start attempting to compare players over their 'career' and suggest one player (who has virtually no finals record is in front)....surely.

 

[estibador]

Again, Pavlich is a utility - he DOES NOT play week in week out at CHF aka Riwoldt/Browne - thats not his fault and its an attribute but this threads comparing CHF. IMO Pavlich is a part timer at this.

Pav was a full-time CHF from 05-08 and will be back there this year from all reports.

Time will tell if he's still at his CHF peak but in the 4 years he's played CHF so far he's kicked hauls of 61, 67, 71 and 72 goals.

 

[sainter35]

That's a fair point. For pure CHF's Tredrea should be the other player in the trio but his current form isn't near Riewoldt or Brown.

Agreed Pavlich is an awesoem player - he's not IMO a true CHF.

When St Kilda play EVERY WEEK Nick Riewoldt walks out to CHF EVERYTIME. Thats his job.

Pavlich doesnt and for that alone he cant be compared to Browne or Riewoldt (who perform in that position consistently - and its the toughest position according to many scribes on the ground).

I rate Pavlich that highly to me he is on track to be in Hird/Kouta (at his peak) territory......but Id never compare him to Wayne Carey (CHF)

Thats not to say Pavlich hasnt and cant play CHF - facts are he just hasnt done it for the same consistency as the others.

 

[AG]

How can it not matter?

Because reaching finals is seen as a team achievement. Rating players should be on individual form and achievements. That's how I view it anyway. When I rate these three I ignore the fact that Brown won 3 premierships. Unless that one player is the sole reason his team won the premiership then it's irrelevant. Lockett hasn't won a premiership and I don't think he would have been seen as a better player if he had won one.

Everyone rates players differently and I just don't see the need to use team success to inflate an individuals worth as a footballer.

 

[sainter35]

Pav was a full-time CHF from 05-08 and will be back there this year from all reports.

Time will tell if he's still at his CHF peak but in the 4 years he's played CHF so far he's kicked hauls of 61, 67, 71 and 72 goals.

I disagree - Pavlich has not consistently played that position week in week out over 4 years aka Wayne Carey OR Nick Riewoldt or even Tredrea.

Ive seen enough Freo games over that time to have seen Pavlich thrown into numerous positions all over the joint (which in dud sides you have to do) but facts are he is not a single bona fide CHF (and for that reason the best all round player out of the 3 mentioned)

To me its like comparing Voss and James Hird as mids - Voss WAS a pure mid.....Hird played utility roles all over the ground - different type of player.

 

[estibador]

I disagree - Pavlich has not consistently played that position week in week out over 4 years aka Wayne Carey OR Nick Riewoldt or even Tredrea.

Trust me, in those 4 years he did. Maybe 99% CHF with the occasional 1% spell in the midfield.

If he wasn't a full time CHF then he must have been a pretty bloody brilliant one to kick over 70 goals as a part-timer.

 

[sainter35]

Because reaching finals is seen as a team achievement. Rating players should be on individual form and achievements. That's how I view it anyway. When I rate these three I ignore the fact that Brown won 3 premierships. Unless that one player is the sole reason his team won the premiership then it's irrelevant. Lockett hasn't won a premiership and I don't think he would have been seen as a better player if he had won one.

Everyone rates players differently and I just don't see the need to use team success to inflate an individuals worth as a footballer.

No to me you are confusing team performance/success and Flags with what it means for an individual to have consistently stood up and delivered in the AFL toughest, most pressurised conditions - Finals. Theres a difference.

E.g you could have 5 flags and done squat on the day.
or you could have lost a GF and been an absolute stand out (see G Ablett 89) and still at an individual level delivered on the utimate stage. Thats got nothing to do with inflating a players performance due to team success.....thats an individual delivering when it mattered.

Pavlich hasnt. Its not his fault its just the facts. To suggest he is career wise ahead of Riewoldt/Browne who have delivered on the biggest stage is to me a false argument.

 

[sainter35]

Trust me, in those 4 years he did. Maybe 99% CHF with the occasional 1% spell in the midfield.

If he wasn't a full time CHF then he must have been a pretty bloody brilliant one to kick over 70 goals as a part-timer.

Sorry mate when most talk of best CHF's Pavlich's name isnt the first usually mentioned (always mentioned but he is seen as more a utility type)

If we are gonna suggest - as you did - that he has the better CHF career to date of Riewoldt, Browne and himself based on his supposed CHF goal kicking efforts over 2005-08.....then youd better include the likes of Tredrea in tha argument cause as a CHF in those years Id have taken him over Pav.

When you quote Pavs goal kicking in those years it might be worthwhile remembering Riewoldt had alongside him over those years - FGehrig (Coleman winner), Hamill, Kosi......my point is I think Pav probably hasnt had the same competition for goals scored???

Id also query why Pav's not won an MVP? - Riewoldt did in 04.

 

[estibador]

If we are gonna suggest - as you did - that he has the better CHF career to date of Riewoldt, Browne and himself based on his supposed CHF goal kicking efforts over 2005-08.....then youd better include the likes of Tredrea in tha argument cause as a CHF in those years Id have taken him over Pav.

No sane person would have taken Tredrea over Pav from 05-08 because he was already in steep decline by 06 - but in the years before that he was definitely the best CHF in the game.

He was much better than Riewoldt and Brown back then too so I'm not sure how bringing him up fits in the context of your Brown/Riewoldt>Pav argument.

 

[estibador]

Id also query why Pav's not won an MVP? - Riewoldt did in 04.

I'm not disputing there is a case to be made for Riewoldt being ranked the best. Obviously he's a fantastic player, as is Brown, and any team would be lucky to have any one of the 3.

I'm just disputing your reasoning that

a) Pav isn't as good because he hasn't played as many finals, and

b) Pav doesn't deserve to be rated as a class CHF

 

[Lach72]

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=1080
Brown

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=609

Pav

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=1557

Travis Cloke

Interesting to note that Brown kicked 123 goals, 15 more goals than Pav from debut in 2000 to 2004 while playing mostly as a stationary CHF...in a 3 time premiership side/ 4 time grand finalist, with guys like Akermanis, Voss, Lappin, Black and Power kicking to him.
While Pav played all over the ground including FB and CHB and as a midfielder...In a team that won 2 games in 2001, and didn't get decent until 2003...and kicked 108 goals
Moves to CHF pretty much permanently in 2005, still in a team that underperforms and does the business...

So that's 3 goals a year for the first half of the decade from the supposed best CHF the league has had this decade in some people's opinion.
His last 3 years have been cracking, but his decade has been aura, combined with injury and 3 years of performance.
Incidentally, Travis Cloke has kicked 117 goals in the same time frame

Now call me old fashioned, but if a forward does that (Brown) I'd be calling him over rated

 

[AG]

Pavlich hasnt. Its not his fault its just the facts. To suggest he is career wise ahead of Riewoldt/Browne who have delivered on the biggest stage is to me a false argument.

That's my point. Why fault a player for something he isn't at fault for?

 

[masai]

As I will say again, from some peoples reasoning skills, this bloke Bobby Skilton must have been a "dud", only played one final !!!!. Geez how can those dills at the AFL Bunker claim Skilton as a LEGEND ???.

 

[ballanFYNE]

Trust me, in those 4 years he did. Maybe 99% CHF with the occasional 1% spell in the midfield.

If he wasn't a full time CHF then he must have been a pretty bloody brilliant one to kick over 70 goals as a part-timer.

Actually he was a bloody brilliant part timer,because in a recent interview, he said himslef that over them years each season he speant only 60% in the forward and 40% in the mid. and he said he is returning to that.

 

[ballanFYNE]

That's my point. Why fault a player for something he isn't at fault for?

Exactly all you saints supporters. Dont base it on this.