Roast My feelings about Hawthorn losing the 2012 Grand Final

[Cursed Cat]

The Hawks played shithouse football in the last 2 weeks of the finals. The goal kicking had gone astray, a number of players were in woeful form and we saw flat, low-energy performances from the likes of Roughead, Hodge, Lewis and Rioli.

People have underestimated the losses of Whitecross and Guerra from our back half. They would've provided the defensive cover on Sydney's slingshot attacks. We also rely on them to run into space to provide the defensive outlet option. We were badly lacking in this area with Birchall and Suckling well covered.

Our game plan was picked apart by Adelaide and it was completely nullified by Sydney. The Crows and Swans played as well as they could and also showed more desire than Hawthorn. And despite all of that, the Hawks were still good enough to beat the Crows and they were good enough to go down to the wire against Sydney

My point is, I don't think we have to add personnel or improve greatly to contend for the 2013 premiership. I think we can reload, fix a few things and go again. Other teams will improve. West Coast are a popular tip with that freak Naitanui in the ruck. Adelaide will be better. It's not going to be easy, but I think we can have another decent crack.

People also forget that Hawthorn are mostly a young side with a number of very inexperienced players in their team. There is still improvement to come from within. Some of our weak links in the Grand Final will be better for the experience. Hopefully they won't be overawed by the pressure in the big games next season.

here we go with the excuses - Whitecross would be lucky to get a game at GWS.
if you think they would have made the slightest difference on the day you are kidding yourself.
'mostly' a young side ? really ??
Hodge/Mitchell/Franklin/Rioli/Sewell - these are the core players that make Hawthorn competitive and they ain't young. It's no Baby Bombers mkII that's for sure.
I'm sure they will be better for the experience, I certainly am, but Hawthorn has as much finals experience as most sides (apart from Geelong obviously, and probably Collingwood) over the past 5 years; they weren't overawed by pressure, they simply were not good enough.

 

[romeoh]

He wasnt the only one, just reading the articles our disposal efficiency went through the floor...



I must disagree with this, admittedly I was at the game and as of yet haven't watched the replay (and won't) but my impression of Franklin's game was that he had a typical Franklin game.

Got plenty of ball, wasted plenty of the ball, almost won the game off his own boot in the 3rd…will rue some squandered missed opportunities. That’s Buddy, regardless of how he performs he is the most instrumental player in just about every match he plays…and for this reason, so long as we can keep the nucleus of a good side, I’m bullish about every season we participate in (like I said, I can see a lot of similarities between the great Geelong side of the 1990s and the Hawthorn side of today).

I was in Sydney yesterday talking to a friend that is at best an occasional viewer of our great game (he has a persuasion for the other winter code like most in NSW) and I think he nailed it on the head when he said that the problem with Franklin is that his potential seems destined to overshadow the sum of his output…that’s not a knock on Franklin, rather identifies the obvious flaws in an otherwise fantastic talent.

Football is a game of inches, had he kicked that 4th goal early in the last quarter he’d probably be saluting with the Norm Smith Medal around his neck and ‘arrogant’ Hawthorn fans would be saluting a living great.

Alas he didn't so he was supposedly well beaten by the All Australian CHB

I think most people reckon Franklin had the measure of Richards for most of the day, except for the last quarter when Richards outpointed Buddy in several telling contests. If Richards had not out marked Buddy etc then Hawks could have still won the game. So Richard's efforts when it mattered, were important.

 

[Hawkk]

here we go with the excuses - Whitecross would be lucky to get a game at GWS.
if you think they would have made the slightest difference on the day you are kidding yourself.
'mostly' a young side ? really ??
Hodge/Mitchell/Franklin/Rioli/Sewell - these are the core players that make Hawthorn competitive and they ain't young. It's no Baby Bombers mkII that's for sure.
I'm sure they will be better for the experience, I certainly am, but Hawthorn has as much finals experience as most sides (apart from Geelong obviously, and probably Collingwood) over the past 5 years; they weren't overawed by pressure, they simply were not good enough.

The Spine.

Franklin (25), Roughead (25), Mitchell (29), Gibson (28) Shoenmakers (21)

Mitchell is a concern but our spine isn't overly old...certainly Franklin, Roughead, Shoenmakers have legs left in them

The Backline

Stratton (22), Shiels (21), Sucking (21) Ellis (24) and Birchell (24) all have plenty of good years ahead, Gibson (28), Guerra (30) and Hodge (28) should have another 2-3 solid years of football left in them, the loss of Whitecross (22) hurt as we'll need him to take on an increasing role over the next few years as Guerra moves into retirement.

The Midfield

We need Lewis (25) Rioli (23) Young (25) to take more leadership, the midfield group is far and away our greatest concern with Mitchell (29), Sewell (28), Borgoyne (29) beginning to age, however (hopefully) the likes of Savage (20) Smith (24) and Puopolo (23) can provide further depth and importantly outside run.

Ruck Division

Its really important that Bailey (24) plays a more telling role, like in 2011, to support Hale (28) and Roughead (25)

The Forwardline

Franklin (25), Roughead (25) Gunston (20) Breust (21), supported by Lewis (25) Rioli (23) Savage (20) Puopolo (23) and a resting Hale (28) is very young.

Certainly compared to the Sydney Swans are age profile is very solid, its interesting to note that the side that played Adelaide in the Preliminary Final was roughly the same age as the young Crows.

 

[Hawkk]

I think most people reckon Franklin had the measure of Richards for most of the day, except for the last quarter when Richards outpointed Buddy in several telling contests. If Richards had not out marked Buddy etc then Hawks could have still won the game. So Richard's efforts when it mattered, were important.

Fair point.

Richards played an outstanding game on one leg, Franklin had a typical Buddy game!

 

[BotsMaster]

Both were actually rather similar...

3 goals, 3 behinds and 19 possessions in his career defining game against Ben Ried

Compared too...

3 goals, 4 behinds and 24 possessions in what you are arguing was a poor game against Ted Richards

Go figure.

Franklin took 8 marks, 4 contested.
Hawkins took 9 marks, 7 contested.

Bit of a difference.

 

[Pivo]

here we go with the excuses - Whitecross would be lucky to get a game at GWS.

Surely you jest!! I actually think Whitecross goes alright.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Surely you jest!! I actually think Whitecross goes alright.

Definitely...but has there been a premiership team in recent years who hasn't been missing a player or two of Whitecross and Guerra's ilk? If missing players like that costs you a premiership, then your depth is not that crash hot. Which isn't what we were hearing about Hawthorn all season.

To be honest, I'm not sure why Hawthorn supporters feel the need to comment in this thread. When the thread title says 'My feelings...', I would have thought the Geelong supporter aspect could be inferred. Plenty of places to go if we want to hear about Hawthorn's supporters feelings about Hawthorn losing.

 

[Pivo]

Yeah, I know but sometimes you have to stick up for the little guy.

And by that I mean Whitecross...not Hawthorn supporters.

 

[footscore]

Franklin (25), Roughead (25), Mitchell (29), Gibson (28) Shoenmakers (21)

Stratton (22), Shiels (21), Sucking (21) Ellis (24) and Birchell (24) all have plenty of good years ahead, Gibson (28), Guerra (30) and Hodge (28) should have another 2-3 solid years of football left in them, the loss of Whitecross (22) hurt as we'll need him to take on an increasing role over the next few years as Guerra moves into retirement.

We need Lewis (25) Rioli (23) Young (25) to take more leadership, the midfield group is far and away our greatest concern with Mitchell (29), Sewell (28), Borgoyne (29) beginning to age, however (hopefully) the likes of Savage (20) Smith (24) and Puopolo (23) can provide further depth and importantly outside run.

Its really important that Bailey (24) plays a more telling role, like in 2011, to support Hale (28) and Roughead (25)

Franklin (25), Roughead (25) Gunston (20) Breust (21), supported by Lewis (25) Rioli (23) Savage (20) Puopolo (23) and a resting Hale (28) is very young.

this is not season 2011 mate!
Where are you getting these player ages from

Mitchell is 30, Gibson 29, Stratton 23 (going on 24 start of 2013), Lewis 26, Young 26 (going on 27 start of next season), Burgoyne 30, Bailey 26 etc.

Go look at the last game played and every player 25 yrs and older on the list will not improve in 2013.
It's the players under this age bracket which will need to take Hawthorn to the next stage.
Guys like Gibson, Hale, Sewell....they just good average footballers who will get found out in finals footy.

 

[David the Cat]

To be fair...I dont think Sewell has to prove anything.

 

[topic97]

Franklin took 8 marks, 4 contested.
Hawkins took 9 marks, 7 contested.

Bit of a difference.

Bloody oath it is!!
Good hard contested marks lift the team regardless of if they are converted or not. If they are converted then moreso.
Front runner uncontested marks and subsequent conversion misses do not.

 

[fpm84]

The difference between Hawkins' 2011 GF and Franklin's 2012 GF was that Hawkins helped us get our noses in front in the third quarter and broke Collingwood's spirit in the last.

Franklin missed chances early when the Hawks were dominating, dragged them back into the game in the third and then when the game was on the line, was beaten by Richards several times in the last on top of missing what could have been a premiership winning goal and passing off when he had another chance.

 

[PowerOfThePussy]

The difference between Franklin and Hawkins was that they both had the chance to win the GF for their teams - one did and one didn't. Franklin is obviously a great player, but his kicking really lets him and his side down. Those out on the fulls must be so demoralising for his teammates and at the same time gives the opposition the ball back. He had his chance to really enhance his reputation as a great that stands up when needed, but failed IMO. Still a good game but really didn't take his chances when his team needed him to, more than they ever have, in the biggest game of the year.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The difference between Franklin and Hawkins was that they both had the chance to win the GF for their teams - one did and one didn't. Franklin is obviously a great player, but his kicking really lets him and his side down.

And that Franklin is considered the best and most valuable player in the league, while Hawkins in September last year would have been lucky to makes most observers' top 150 players. And that he was playing a lone hand down there, due to Podsiadly's injury.

 

[Hawkk]

Franklin took 8 marks, 4 contested.
Hawkins took 9 marks, 7 contested.

Bit of a difference.

Franklin had 6 tackles, Hawkins had 1

...bit of a difference

24 possessions, 3 goals and 6 tackles...not bad for a disappointing game.

 

[Hawkk]

Where are you getting these player ages from

Mitchell is 30, Gibson 29, Stratton 23 (going on 24 start of 2013), Lewis 26, Young 26 (going on 27 start of next season), Burgoyne 30, Bailey 26 etc.

...and?

Players in the 25-30 age bracket should be in the prime of their careers, like I said we're well and truely in the premiership bubble.

If anything we're probably lucky that our ageing midfielders are predominantly inside players that lack speed and instead rely on bodywork…Mitchell, Sewell and the like. I mean it’s not like these players are under threat of losing any more speed is it? You'll find that the majority of our outside run relies on a younger, fleet of foot brigade that was recruited/development in the years following our 2008 premiership (2009, 2010 and 2011)

Make no mistake, we're not in the position that Sydney were leading into the Grand Final with no less than five players over the age of 30 (Goodes 32, Bolton 32, O'Keefe 31, Shaw 31 and Mattner 30)

Go look at the last game played and every player 25 yrs and older on the list will not improve in 2013.

It's the players under this age bracket which will need to take Hawthorn to the next stage.

Gunston, Shoenmakers, Stratton, Smith, Sheils, Puopolo, Bruest, Rioli...that is where the improvement will come from.

Guys like Gibson, Hale, Sewell....they just good average footballers who will get found out in finals footy.

Honestly, do you actually get football?

Hale kicked 3 goals, held is own in the ruck whilst Sewell featured in the top 3 for Norm Smith voting.

What next, Hawkins a superior talent to Franklin

 

[mark73]

The Spine.

Franklin (25), Roughead (25), Mitchell (29), Gibson (28) Shoenmakers (21)

Mitchell is a concern but our spine isn't overly old...certainly Franklin, Roughead, Shoenmakers have legs left in them

The Backline

Stratton (22), Shiels (21), Sucking (21) Ellis (24) and Birchell (24) all have plenty of good years ahead, Gibson (28), Guerra (30) and Hodge (28) should have another 2-3 solid years of football left in them, the loss of Whitecross (22) hurt as we'll need him to take on an increasing role over the next few years as Guerra moves into retirement.

The Midfield

We need Lewis (25) Rioli (23) Young (25) to take more leadership, the midfield group is far and away our greatest concern with Mitchell (29), Sewell (28), Borgoyne (29) beginning to age, however (hopefully) the likes of Savage (20) Smith (24) and Puopolo (23) can provide further depth and importantly outside run.

Ruck Division

Its really important that Bailey (24) plays a more telling role, like in 2011, to support Hale (28) and Roughead (25)

The Forwardline

Franklin (25), Roughead (25) Gunston (20) Breust (21), supported by Lewis (25) Rioli (23) Savage (20) Puopolo (23) and a resting Hale (28) is very young.

Certainly compared to the Sydney Swans are age profile is very solid, its interesting to note that the side that played Adelaide in the Preliminary Final was roughly the same age as the young Crows.

^ The silly pom

 

[LongBomb]

 

[witsend]

this is not season 2011 mate!
Where are you getting these player ages from

Mitchell is 30, Gibson 29, Stratton 23 (going on 24 start of 2013), Lewis 26, Young 26 (going on 27 start of next season), Burgoyne 30, Bailey 26 etc.

Go look at the last game played and every player 25 yrs and older on the list will not improve in 2013.
It's the players under this age bracket which will need to take Hawthorn to the next stage.
Guys like Gibson, Hale, Sewell....they just good average footballers who will get found out in finals footy.

Throw Osborne into that...30yo

 

[Scottland2007]

I think the hawks best mid field players might be to old to slow next year. But we'll see if they can add to that sentence like 2011 cats. I think though, with a shortened pre season, they might struggle to win games early like 2012 and Clarko will be under some serious fire. Just a thought. I also think with Sydney's injuries they will struggle to win early in the season. I think Adelaide will be big improvers next year, if they can cover Tippet.

 

[witsend]

The difference between Franklin and Hawkins was that they both had the chance to win the GF for their teams - one did and one didn't. Franklin is obviously a great player, but his kicking really lets him and his side down. Those out on the fulls must be so demoralising for his teammates and at the same time gives the opposition the ball back. He had his chance to really enhance his reputation as a great that stands up when needed, but failed IMO. Still a good game but really didn't take his chances when his team needed him to, more than they ever have, in the biggest game of the year.

At least when Hawkins kicking was shithouse he tried to fix it. Franklin has made NO attempt to rectify the massive structural flaws in his kicking style. That is why Hawthorn in this generation will NOT be a truly great side...hubris..

 

[Barabbas]

Franklin had 6 tackles, Hawkins had 1

...bit of a difference

24 possessions, 3 goals and 6 tackles...not bad for a disappointing game.

You can compare the stats all day, but if you watch the performances, Hawkins dragged us over the line when the game was on the line, Buddy was good early and ineffectual late. In other stats – Hawthorn smashed Sydney in every key metric – that should tell you that stats don't tell the full story.

Also, you can talk down your team's performance, and like many others I respect you coming over here and having a discussion about it, but I wouldn't say it was any achievement by Hawthorn to stay in the contest, you weren't the underdogs and for good reason. I know you're looking for positives right now, but you guys were near full strength and in good form. Fact is you could have won the game and you had the opportunities, same as us in 2008. And yeah, it sucks.

 

[topic97]

Franklin had 6 tackles, Hawkins had 1

...bit of a difference

24 possessions, 3 goals and 6 tackles...not bad for a disappointing game.

Two things there.
1) Hawkins plays out of the goal square as a full forward and not a half forward like Franklin therefore Franklin is up the ground more gaining more posessions in places he really isnt that effective.
2) With that in mind, Hawthorn played Sydney - probably one of the best contested, stoppage focused teams in the league - if he hadnt of made more tackles up the ground than Hawkins did playing Full Forward he might as well have not turned up.

 

[topic97]

this is not season 2011 mate!
Where are you getting these player ages from

Mitchell is 30, Gibson 29, Stratton 23 (going on 24 start of 2013), Lewis 26, Young 26 (going on 27 start of next season), Burgoyne 30, Bailey 26 etc.

Go look at the last game played and every player 25 yrs and older on the list will not improve in 2013.
It's the players under this age bracket which will need to take Hawthorn to the next stage.
Guys like Gibson, Hale, Sewell....they just good average footballers who will get found out in finals footy.

Wow, for some reason I didnt think those guys were that old.
I always had a thing in the back of my mind that when they played us in 08 they were super young but those guys are getting on a bit.
Add Hodge at 29 next year..... hmm their window may have just passed last saturday.

Especially when you consider Adelaide came within a kick to over-running them for GF birth & they have a hell of a lot younger blokes not even in their prime!!

Whats the odds on Hawthorn not making the 8 next season?

 

[footscore]

I like that and raise you one