Pies vs Crows

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

I think it is very possible for a great side to get in average form, or even abysmal form. It is not possible by definition for an average side to get in white hot form ... by definition that performance is not average.

If you thought that a side was only average, yet it started to produce white hot form, then what is happening is that your assessment of the side as being average was incorrect. (Oh, and when I say "white hot form", I do not mean a single outstanding game).

Before they were in white hot they may have previously been playing in only average form, but clearly and obviously they were capable of much better form.

"Being capable of great form" is what defines what we mean when we say "a good list".

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?

So let me get this straight. If Adelaide play poorly then they are a great team in average form...just because you say so. Adelaide weren't finalists last year, they were poor, they have started this season out very well, but there is a long way to go, and just because you think they are a great team, it does not make it so.

What kind of ridiculous notion is average teams can't get in white hot form? Of course they can. There have been numerous teams start the season out extremely well only to hit hurdles in the second half of the year and never be heard from again.

It takes a while for an emerging team to be given credit for how good they are. This is because we want to see whether they are playing at their very best while most of the rest aren't, or whether they are truly improving into an excellent side. This is still the case with Adelaide, we are not sure which category they slot into. We will know more in time, but for you to be so categoric about just how good this Adelaide list is makes me think you may be blinded by a bit of bias. Sure you've been great this season, but lets just remember the season isn't even half done yet, and you were struggling to shake GWS, WB and Port for a good portion of those games. You have been smashed by Hawthorn too.

I'd say that Carlton and Geelong have been far from their best when playing you. You may say it was your ability to shut them down. I can then say that whenever Adelaide have performed badly, including last season, that it was the oppositions ability to shut them down that caused Adelaides subpar performance. It will just keep going around in a circle until enough weeks pass for Adelaide to truly prove how good they are. We will know soon. As for now, Adelaides best 22 is only as good as Collingwoods best 22 in your head.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

If the AA side was picked tomorrow, Sidebottom Pendlebury Thompson and Dangerfield would all be automatic selections.

It will be a massive showdown in the engine room. I cant wait to watch the Giants game on FTA

 

[Sidebottom2Beams]

If the AA side was picked tomorrow, Sidebottom Pendlebury Thompson and Dangerfield would all be automatic selections.

It will be a massive showdown in the engine room. I cant wait to watch the Giants game on FTA

Foxtel is your friend.

 

[radiojake]

It will be a massive showdown in the engine room. I cant wait to watch the Giants game on FTA

It's quite funny, actually - As a Crows supporter living in Melbourne, I am rather used to not seeing the Crows on FTA - That's fine, I can understand that. However, the other day when I saw we were playing Collingwood in Adelaide, I was stoked -

"Collingwood games are ALWAYS on FTA, especially when they are not playing in Melbourne!"

I was getting ready for that rare moment where I bring in the TV from out the storeroom (it's rarely ever on, and doesn't stay in the loungeroom) and settle down on a cold saturday night to watch the Crows in the comfort of my home.

But NO! We might as well be playing Fremantle! Down to the Quarry again to watch the game on Fox, where I will invariably buy a couple pints of beer/cider that I can not afford to buy!

Ah well

 

[ok.crows]

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?

So let me get this straight. If Adelaide play poorly then they are a great team in average form...just because you say so.

Gee, it didn't take you long to get it completely backwards ... you managed to get it wrong at the very first step.

Adelaide are in very good form right now. They have produced very good form consistently for three weeks now, after showing glimpses of it earlier in the season. They have beaten some very good sides very convincingly.

To do this requires that they have a good list (and a good gameplan, and execute it correctly, and have lack of injuries, and a bit of confidence, and probably other things as well). But they do necessarily have to have a good list, since a bunch of squibs can't produce a string of good games like that.

They have almost exactly the same list playing this year as they had last year.

Ergo, last year they must have had a good list (since it is the same list), playing poorly. There is plenty of evidence to support this, after all the coach did resign half-way through the year. There are plenty of ways a good list can play poorly ... e.g. they could have a poor gameplan, or execute it incorrectly, or have a spate of injuries, or simply lack confidence. In the last couple of years virtually all of the latter described the Crows.

Sheesh, it is a perfectly straightforward, logical argument. I simply can't see why you are having such trouble with it.

What kind of ridiculous notion is average teams can't get in white hot form? Of course they can. There have been numerous teams start the season out extremely well only to hit hurdles in the second half of the year and never be heard from again.

Backwards, again! If a team starts out extremely well, it is obviously a good list. If that team does hit a hurdle only in the second half of the year the players aren't suddenly useless ... there are any number of reasons why a team might lose form. Lack of fitness, illness, players being played out of position, off-field incidents (scandals) and injuries are some reasons that spring to mind. This does NOT mean that all the players have suddenly turned to squibs, nor does it mean they always were average players but they somehow magically conjured up great form in the early part of the season.

Are you naturally crazy, or do you have to work at it?

 

[Roby]

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?

So let me get this straight. If Adelaide play poorly then they are a great team in average form...just because you say so. Adelaide weren't finalists last year, they were poor, they have started this season out very well, but there is a long way to go, and just because you think they are a great team, it does not make it so.

What kind of ridiculous notion is average teams can't get in white hot form? Of course they can. There have been numerous teams start the season out extremely well only to hit hurdles in the second half of the year and never be heard from again.

It takes a while for an emerging team to be given credit for how good they are. This is because we want to see whether they are playing at their very best while most of the rest aren't, or whether they are truly improving into an excellent side. This is still the case with Adelaide, we are not sure which category they slot into. We will know more in time, but for you to be so categoric about just how good this Adelaide list is makes me think you may be blinded by a bit of bias. Sure you've been great this season, but lets just remember the season isn't even half done yet, and you were struggling to shake GWS, WB and Port for a good portion of those games. You have been smashed by Hawthorn too.

I'd say that Carlton and Geelong have been far from their best when playing you. You may say it was your ability to shut them down. I can then say that whenever Adelaide have performed badly, including last season, that it was the oppositions ability to shut them down that caused Adelaides subpar performance. It will just keep going around in a circle until enough weeks pass for Adelaide to truly prove how good they are. We will know soon. As for now, Adelaides best 22 is only as good as Collingwoods best 22 in your head.

Excellent post.

In reality Adelaide have a dream draw for the rest of the season and with their healthy list if they didn't make top 4 now it would be a failure from this point on.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Gee, it didn't take you long to get it completely backwards ... you managed to get it wrong at the very first step.

Adelaide are in very good form right now. They have produced very good form consistently for three weeks now, after showing glimpses of it earlier in the season. They have beaten some very good sides very convincingly.

To do this requires that they have a good list (and a good gameplan, and execute it correctly, and have lack of injuries, and a bit of confidence, and probably other things as well). But they do necessarily have to have a good list, since a bunch of squibs can't produce a string of good games like that.

They have almost exactly the same list playing this year as they had last year.

Ergo, last year they must have had a good list (since it is the same list), playing poorly. There is plenty of evidence to support this, after all the coach did resign half-way through the year. There are plenty of ways a good list can play poorly ... e.g. they could have a poor gameplan, or execute it incorrectly, or have a spate of injuries, or simply lack confidence. In the last couple of years virtually all of the latter described the Crows.

Sheesh, it is a perfectly straightforward, logical argument. I simply can't see why you are having such trouble with it.



Backwards, again! If a team starts out extremely well, it is obviously a good list. If that team does hit a hurdle only in the second half of the year the players aren't suddenly useless ... there are any number of reasons why a team might lose form. Lack of fitness, illness, players being played out of position, off-field incidents (scandals) and injuries are some reasons that spring to mind. This does NOT mean that all the players have suddenly turned to squibs, nor does it mean they always were average players but they somehow magically conjured up great form in the early part of the season.

Are you naturally crazy, or do you have to work at it?

Sorry I do not agree that any team who plays a fantastic 8 games is "obviously a good list". Maybe you do, I don't. Especially not when that team has played GC, GWS, Port and the WB (in Adelaide) in those 8 games.
There are still question marks over your team because I can see the past few weeks this way-
Adelaide have a great record against Sydney- I don't personally think the Swans are a top 4 team, but they are honest. It was a good win, but not totally unexpected.
Adelaide smashing Geelong was a brilliant effort. But I will say you have performed very well against much better Geelong sides in Adelaide a couple of times over the past few years even when you were down.
And then Carlton. It was a smashing. But to half time there was only a few goals in it. Carlton lost the will when they lost Murphy. Sure you guys were much better when it counted, but Adelaide seem to perform well at Etihad stadium and Carlton dont, plus Carlton came off a 4 goal loss against St.Kilda at that very ground.

Even if you win this week there could still be question marks- Collingwood without Swan and Reid. But if your great results keep happening then there wont be question marks and we will agree that you have an excellent side and list. That is for later in the season after you have kept the form up and are still playing great footy.

 

[moogerfooger]

Adelaide should win this week by virtue of having a full list to choose from and being in good form, with the Pies having some big outs. Swan and Reid are big losses for tomorrow and they're replaced by first gamers, so there's a big differential between what's going out and what's coming in.

Obviously if the sides meet later in the year and the Pies have most of their injured players back, it will be a different ball game.

 

[StickerMan]

Sorry I do not agree that any team who plays a fantastic 8 games is "obviously a good list". Maybe you do, I don't. Especially not when that team has played GC, GWS, Port and the WB (in Adelaide) in those 8 games.
There are still question marks over your team because I can see the past few weeks this way-
Adelaide have a great record against Sydney- I don't personally think the Swans are a top 4 team, but they are honest. It was a good win, but not totally unexpected.
Adelaide smashing Geelong was a brilliant effort. But I will say you have performed very well against much better Geelong sides in Adelaide a couple of times over the past few years even when you were down.
And then Carlton. It was a smashing. But to half time there was only a few goals in it. Carlton lost the will when they lost Murphy. Sure you guys were much better when it counted, but Adelaide seem to perform well at Etihad stadium and Carlton dont, plus Carlton came off a 4 goal loss against St.Kilda at that very ground.

Even if you win this week there could still be question marks- Collingwood without Swan and Reid. But if your great results keep happening then there wont be question marks and we will agree that you have an excellent side and list. That is for later in the season after you have kept the form up and are still playing great footy.

Yes. Yes, Adelaide are a bottom 4 team who have are 7-1 and got lucky by smashing the reigning premiers and the early season Premiership favourites....

It can't possibly be that they have improved and playing good football. You Vics are in denial that Adelaide are once again a good football side....

So when Adelaide come out tomorrow night and smash the Pies, it will be because Collingwood had so many injuries and Adelaide got lucky, not that they played well to beat another top four side?

 

[PieNSauce]

All anyone can realistically say is that Adelaide are doing what they need to do right now. Whether they are as good a side as their ladder position suggests remains to be seen although they're certainly starting to turn the critics. Collingwood and Geelong have so far not played anywhere near 2011 levels and the game between them last week was of extremely poor standard. The fact that Adelaide beat Carlton has to make you believe that either they are thereabouts or they met Carlton on a bad day but continued wins certainly makes you lean toward the former. We will know long before the finals but we have all seen clubs come out of the blocks only to fade before just as Carlton and Essendon did last year.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Yes. Yes, Adelaide are a bottom 4 team who have are 7-1 and got lucky by smashing the reigning premiers and the early season Premiership favourites....

It can't possibly be that they have improved and playing good football. You Vics are in denial that Adelaide are once again a good football side....

So when Adelaide come out tomorrow night and smash the Pies, it will be because Collingwood had so many injuries and Adelaide got lucky, not that they played well to beat another top four side?

Obviously didn't read the whole back and forth there bud, I didn't say you weren't a good team, my point was to okcrows who said that Adelaides best 22 is on par with Collingwoods best 22 (no injuries). I just don't know how you could back up an argument like that right now.

 

[StickerMan]

Obviously didn't read the whole back and forth there bud, I didn't say you weren't a good team, my point was to okcrows who said that Adelaides best 22 is on par with Collingwoods best 22 (no injuries). I just don't know how you could back up an argument like that right now.

I guess the same goes for the other way as well doesn't it? That is, no one will know unless the two sides meet in the finals and both are at full strength. Although there will be no Luke Ball so it won't happen this year, obviously.

If Adelaide finish higher than the pies, does that mean that the Crows had a better side in 2012, or will it be because the Pies couldn't get their best side out on the park?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Foxtel is your friend.

Nup.

Not getting pay tv until its free.

 

[jonbe54]

I guess the same goes for the other way as well doesn't it? That is, no one will know unless the two sides meet in the finals and both are at full strength. Although there will be no Luke Ball so it won't happen this year, obviously.

If Adelaide finish higher than the pies, does that mean that the Crows had a better side in 2012, or will it be because the Pies couldn't get their best side out on the park?

Keeping your best side on the park is a mixture of good player management, fitness staff and luck. Ultimately all sides need to have depth for covering injuries, depth is built through blooding players and giving second stringers experience when the opportunity arises, this is one of those times for the Pies with plenty of outs we stand exposed for experience and will be severely tested. On the plus side our second string mids and backs will gain invaluable experience in a pressure cooker situation against a white hot team which could be gold for us in the finals down the track.

 

[moses]

Keeping your best side on the park is a mixture of good player management, fitness staff and luck. Ultimately all sides need to have depth for covering injuries, depth is built through blooding players and giving second stringers experience when the opportunity arises, this is one of those times for the Pies with plenty of outs we stand exposed for experience and will be severely tested. On the plus side our second string mids and backs will gain invaluable experience in a pressure cooker situation against a white hot team which could be gold for us in the finals down the track.

Agree. Injuries hit all side and no one side ever has 100% of its players at 100% fittnes, players carry niggles through out the year, all teams carry injuries at different times, having the non-regular players step up is a true test.

Anyway, i don't really care for comparing both lists, am just pumped for the game. The Pies V Crows games of the past few years have rarely been dull. Both teams are developing a good onfield rivalry and i hope tomorrow night delivers again, ofcourse with a Crows victory to top it off Pies have owned us in too many big games of recent years!

 

[jonbe54]

Will be very interested in how the young upgraded guys go.

Both Williams and Elliot are hard nuts in the VFL with Elliot being the more talented so far and having a decent impact on the scoreboard lately.

Hopefully they get a good taste and it whets their appetite.

 

[ok.crows]

Sorry I do not agree that any team who plays a fantastic 8 games is "obviously a good list". Maybe you do, I don't. Especially not when that team has played GC, GWS, Port and the WB (in Adelaide) in those 8 games.
There are still question marks over your team because I can see the past few weeks this way-
Adelaide have a great record against Sydney- I don't personally think the Swans are a top 4 team, but they are honest. It was a good win, but not totally unexpected.
Adelaide smashing Geelong was a brilliant effort. But I will say you have performed very well against much better Geelong sides in Adelaide a couple of times over the past few years even when you were down.
And then Carlton. It was a smashing. But to half time there was only a few goals in it. Carlton lost the will when they lost Murphy. Sure you guys were much better when it counted, but Adelaide seem to perform well at Etihad stadium and Carlton dont, plus Carlton came off a 4 goal loss against St.Kilda at that very ground.

Even if you win this week there could still be question marks- Collingwood without Swan and Reid. But if your great results keep happening then there wont be question marks and we will agree that you have an excellent side and list. That is for later in the season after you have kept the form up and are still playing great footy.

Sorry, but I don't agree. I strongly disagree. To beat three sides who were in the top 8 in consecutive weeks requires that you play good footy.

If a player produces consistent good play, then that is a good player. By definition.

It is effectively a tautology.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Sorry, but I don't agree. I strongly disagree. To beat three sides who were in the top 8 in consecutive weeks requires that you play good footy..

The ladder in the early rounds is irrelevant. Its pointless bragging about beating a "top eight" side just a month or so in. Its starting to take shape now and develop some meaning as more team play each other, but it wont really mean anything for another 5 rounds.

On comparative form this year Collingwood have beaten the top side while Adelaide have beaten the fourth side. An undermanned Pies side lost to a fully fit Carlton team while Adelaide met Carlton after the injury tables had turned and it was the Blues undermanned.

Theres not much in this game at all on exposed form.

Adelaide are slight favorites because its a home game and Collingwood on top of all its injuries has now lost two 2012 All Australians.

 

[Huntercrow]

Unlike Collingwood we need early results, our last 2 years have made us wonder what is going on at West Lakes.

Normally to be peaking at this time of year would be a bad omen but the injury fairy is on holiday and our depth is pretty good. You guys are sailing along nicely in a marathon race so we may have to pull back a little before steaming ahead later in the season. Not sure how we manage that but that injury fairy may help out

 

[Mattrox]

The ladder in the early rounds is irrelevant. Its pointless bragging about beating a "top eight" side just a month or so in. Its starting to take shape now and develop some meaning as more team play each other, but it wont really mean anything for another 5 rounds.

You make a good point.

On comparative form this year Collingwood have beaten the top side while Adelaide have beaten the fourth side. An undermanned Pies side lost to a fully fit Carlton team while Adelaide met Carlton after the injury tables had turned and it was the Blues undermanned.

But now you make a point based on a premise you just debunked.

Lets just wait until the game.

 

[headache1]

Will be very interested in how the young upgraded guys go.

Both Williams and Elliot are hard nuts in the VFL with Elliot being the more talented so far and having a decent impact on the scoreboard lately.

Hopefully they get a good taste and it whets their appetite.

Possibly the first time I've seen anybody use 'whet' (the correct word), when attempting to use this phrase on BigFooty. Good job!

Hopefully the rain doesn't show up tomorrow night. Can't wait for the game!

 

[Collingwoodity]

Possibly the first time I've seen anybody use 'whet' (the correct word), when attempting to use this phrase on BigFooty. Good job!

Hopefully the rain doesn't show up tomorrow night. Can't wait for the game!

is that because it would be whet?

 

[headache1]

is that because it would be whet?

 

[jonbe54]

is that because it would be whet?

Careful JM ur so sharp u might cut urself

 

[JackoSpades]

No one has mentioned collingwoods forward line.
It has become a rabble, having to move defender in goldsack up there, cloke and Dawes gone missing, Thomas looked like he needs a few more games to find form.
Harry was a disaster last week looked like an nfl recruit, had absolutely no idea where the ball was or where to position himself.
If Pendles has to hold this team up again he is likely to get injured or succumb to the injury he's carrying.

If collingwoods win this game Adelaide are shot for the grandfinal.
Oh did I mention two first gamers in key positions....