Training Pre-Season 2024

[Jeffcrowe]

Wasn't the big sell on McDonald pre-draft that he was AFL ready?

Thilthorpe plays up the ground more, and gets a lot more contested ball. He needs to learn forward craft, he needs to continue to develop his frame, he needs to get confident in the idea he can physically dominate at the level. Those are all things we should expect.

As I say, the important thing is whether you can see signs there's a real player in there or not. It won't flash every game, just sometimes. Re-watch the first Showdown if you're in doubt.

This is basically where we were with Fogarty for years. People calling him lazy and useless etc for taking time to develop into the position. This year's variation is Thilthorpe isn't trying or is afraid. People said it about Tex when he was starting out for gods sake.

The position takes time. That just is what it is. He's going to be great.

The knock on Logan McDonald in his draft year was that he played more like a flanker , lead up type guy with strong running power

A bit like a better version of our Tom Lynch I guess

I guess that’s kinda true but he’s still going to be a very good player

I’d prefer TT though going forward , he has more ability / potential to rip a game open off his own boot which he’s done a few times already

 

[cleanhands]

Nah mate not even close. ‘Spent before he had it’ has always meant a player has tried to dispose of the ball before having control of it. You don’t need to be under any sort of pressure for this to happen.
I’ve never known ‘ hearing footsteps’ to mean anything else than a player being worried about someone behind them and the physical contact that may eventuate. Cowardice may be a bit strong but scared or fearful definitely.

Now someone is talking sense

 

[Scorpus]

I just want to be clear that when I said Rory Atkins

2

Rory Atkins

Age

30

Ht

185cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.9

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

7.9

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

1.9

4star

MG

367.4

5star

D

9.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

0.3

1star

T

2.7

4star

MG

147.7

3star

D

14.2

4star

K

8.8

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.2

3star

MG

217.8

4star

"hears footsteps" I absolutely did mean that he is scared of contact

 

[Vader]

I just want to be clear that when I said Rory Atkins "hears footsteps" I absolutely did mean that he is scared of contact

I see your Rory Atkins, and I raise you with Luke Jericho and Ricky Henderson.

** To be fair to Henderson, his legendary ability to hear footsteps only developed after multiple head knocks, and eventually receded after he was traded to Hawthorn. But for a while there he was regularly seen running AWAY from physical contests.

 

[skam85]

I see your Rory Atkins, and I raise you with Luke Jericho and Ricky Henderson.

** To be fair to Henderson, his legendary ability to hear footsteps only developed after multiple head knocks, and eventually receded after he was traded to Hawthorn. But for a while there he was regularly seen running AWAY from physical contests.

The disrespect to lump Henderson in with Jericho and Atkins in the same sentence in this context

 

[Vader]

The disrespect to lump Henderson in with Jericho and Atkins in the same sentence in this context

He was a much better player than either Jericho or Atkins, but he did go through a phase of his career (lasting several seasons) where his sense of hearing was VERY finely tuned. If we're talking about players who were guilty of hearing footsteps, then he absolutely belongs in the conversation.

 

[Trigger13]

Oliver sent home from training camp due to ‘complex medical issues’.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Stunningly different idioms have different meanings.

There is absolutely no need for me to argue with you about the long established and entirely uncontroversial meaning of hearing footsteps. It's not open for argument. If you didn't know what it meant when you endorsed it, now you do.

Not sure who died and made you the be all and end all of the meaning of all idioms.

But the way idioms are used, and the meanings of them, definately differs from person to person, group to group, culture to culture, generation to generation..

In fact.. the last few pages of this very forum point exactly to that. People have different ideas of the meanings of certain idioms..

Clearly my idea of the exact meaning of “hearing footsteps” differs, even if its only slightly, to yours.

Cleanhands ideas of its meaning probably differs to both of ours..

You obviously jump straight to the most harshest of meanings by claiming it means nothing other than the player is a coward.. whereas I just see the meaning being that the player worries more about whats happening around him rather than focusing 100% on the footy..

In relation to TT I dont think he’s a coward, just a bit young and timid… and I definitely believe he, as a lad that is 202cm tall and is 105kgs, needs to start throwing his weight around at bit more.

 

[cleanhands]

He does but that generally comes with maturity , age and confidence as a 200cm bloke

Not really worried by him at all as he’s got apparent enormous drive to improve himself

He’s going to be so massive for us when he comes off , will be our most dominant player

Have said similar but when you mention something you don’t like to see some tend to focus on that as well as adding their mayo

 

[cleanhands]

Not sure who died and made you the be all and end all of the meaning of all idioms.

But the way idioms are used, and the meanings of them, definately differs from person to person, group to group, culture to culture, generation to generation..

In fact.. the last few pages of this very forum point exactly to that. People have different ideas of the meanings of certain idioms..

Clearly my idea of the exact meaning of “hearing footsteps” differs, even if its only slightly, to yours.

Cleanhands ideas of its meaning probably differs to both of ours..

You obviously jump straight to the most harshest of meanings by claiming it means nothing other than the player is a coward.. whereas I just see the meaning being that the player worries more about whats happening around him rather than focusing 100% on the footy..

In relation to TT I dont think he’s a coward, just a bit young and timid… and I definitely believe he, as a lad that is 202cm tall and is 105kgs, needs to start throwing his weight around at bit more.

Sometimes it just pays to let them have a little win

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Have said similar but when you mention something you don’t like to see some tend to focus on that as well as adding their mayo

Yeah I just see you of being hard on him at times because you rate him and you’ll know he can be better

But it will take time

 

[cleanhands]

Yeah I just see you of being hard on him at times because you rate him and you’ll know he can be better

But it will take time

He has the package and we all hope he can produce it

 

[Southerntakeover]

Not sure who died and made you the be all and end all of the meaning of all idioms.

But the way idioms are used, and the meanings of them, definately differs from person to person, group to group, culture to culture, generation to generation..

In fact.. the last few pages of this very forum point exactly to that. People have different ideas of the meanings of certain idioms..

Clearly my idea of the exact meaning of “hearing footsteps” differs, even if its only slightly, to yours.

Cleanhands ideas of its meaning probably differs to both of ours..

You obviously jump straight to the most harshest of meanings by claiming it means nothing other than the player is a coward.. whereas I just see the meaning being that the player worries more about whats happening around him rather than focusing 100% on the footy..

In relation to TT I dont think he’s a coward, just a bit young and timid… and I definitely believe he, as a lad that is 202cm tall and is 105kgs, needs to start throwing his weight around at bit more.

Not sure why you think being able to understand terms requires hereditary title.

The socially understood meaning of an idiom does not vary from person to person, it's usefulness as a device to convey meaning would be non-existent if it did. We plainly haven't left the cultural usage. It's not just me telling you that. It's what it means. There is absolutely no worth or value to typing paragraphs about this.

The reality is that what I identified was the intended meaning, the people using it have just realised it reflects badly upon them when its put to them like that. If you don't think he's a coward great, me neither, but I also don't think he's 'timid' or any other synonym.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Sometimes it just pays to let them have a little win

It's never really mattered whether you 'let' someone win or not though, has it?

 

[119others]

Oliver sent home from training camp due to ‘complex medical issues’.

Seriously how anyone can keep saying everything is hunky dory with this lad is beyond me. Very concerned for his welfare

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/melbourne-demons-star-clayton-oliver-returns-home-from-training-camp/news-story/d47eeb6e7f035f6b9442690c4565ae64

Melbourne superstar Clayton Oliver has taken another break from football.
The troubled midfielder missed last Saturday’s training session in Melbourne and then left the Demons training camp in Lorne early on Monday night.

It’s been well documented Oliver has dealt with personal issues throughout this season including injuries, medical challenges and questions over his behaviour.

Melbourne football boss Alan Richardson said the club would continue to work with Oliver over the Christmas break.

“Clayton is taking a break as he continues to deal with some issues,” Richardson said.

“We are continuing to support Clayton and managing his program in a way that prioritises his health and wellbeing.

“His teammates and staff remain confident he is making good progress.”

Clayton Oliver at Demon’s training. Picture: Jake Nowakowski
The Demons arrived in Lorne on Monday for a three-day bonding exercise but it was decided Oliver should return home later that night.

On Friday it was revealed the premiership hero will face court next year after being caught driving without a licence.

Oliver had been banned from driving for medical reasons after he was hospitalised in October following a seizure.

But he ignored doctors orders, continuing to be behind the wheel before he was busted by police.

Last week Melbourne CEO Gary Pert said Oliver was “in a great headspace” despite his year.

He had returned early to training but had been limited after having a minor knee procedure.

However, he regressed in recent days which saw him sent home from the training camp.

“He wants to be part of something really special,” Pert said about Oliver at Melbourne’s annual members footy forum.

Oliver suffered the seizure when he was at teammate Joel Smith’s house. Smith is currently provisionally suspended after testing positive to cocaine in a sample taken after the Demons win over Hawthorn in Rd 23.

 

[Trigger13]

Seriously how anyone can keep saying everything is hunky dory with this lad is beyond me. Very concerned for his welfare

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/melbourne-demons-star-clayton-oliver-returns-home-from-training-camp/news-story/d47eeb6e7f035f6b9442690c4565ae64

Melbourne superstar Clayton Oliver has taken another break from football.
The troubled midfielder missed last Saturday’s training session in Melbourne and then left the Demons training camp in Lorne early on Monday night.

It’s been well documented Oliver has dealt with personal issues throughout this season including injuries, medical challenges and questions over his behaviour.

Melbourne football boss Alan Richardson said the club would continue to work with Oliver over the Christmas break.

“Clayton is taking a break as he continues to deal with some issues,” Richardson said.

“We are continuing to support Clayton and managing his program in a way that prioritises his health and wellbeing.

“His teammates and staff remain confident he is making good progress.”

Clayton Oliver at Demon’s training. Picture: Jake Nowakowski
The Demons arrived in Lorne on Monday for a three-day bonding exercise but it was decided Oliver should return home later that night.

On Friday it was revealed the premiership hero will face court next year after being caught driving without a licence.

Oliver had been banned from driving for medical reasons after he was hospitalised in October following a seizure.

But he ignored doctors orders, continuing to be behind the wheel before he was busted by police.

Last week Melbourne CEO Gary Pert said Oliver was “in a great headspace” despite his year.

He had returned early to training but had been limited after having a minor knee procedure.

However, he regressed in recent days which saw him sent home from the training camp.

“He wants to be part of something really special,” Pert said about Oliver at Melbourne’s annual members footy forum.

Oliver suffered the seizure when he was at teammate Joel Smith’s house. Smith is currently provisionally suspended after testing positive to cocaine in a sample taken after the Demons win over Hawthorn in Rd 23.

CROSSROADS

 

[Golumless]

Agree that TT will still be inconsistent until Tex hangs up the boots. He always seems to play better when we only have 2 key forwards.

Looking back at his stats from last season, two of his better games of the year were in round 3 and 4 which were games that Fog missed. Against the Power in round 3 he kicked 5 and then against the Dockers in round 4 he had 18 disposals, 9 marks and kicked a goal.

His stats overall are actually really good for a 21 year old Key Forward. He has his quiet games still but that is to be expected. I have confidence that he will become one of our best and most important players in the next 5 years once he hits his peak.

View attachment 1874893

Yup, those performances with two key forwards backs up the point the main problem with TT was just a lack of supply directed at him, not anything in his game. Mind you, it's hard to be critical of it because that forward line was both productive and efficient.

That said, his stats don't read that well for a 20-21 year old KPF, they're middling at best with a 10.6 disp/0.9 goals season. Look at JUH who put up 11.5 disp/1.5 goals and McDonald with 9.7 disp/1.6 goals this year as 20-21 year olds. Even in the 19-20 years bracket this year, Van Rooyen is put up 8.7 disp/1.4 goals, Amiss 7.6 disp/1.9 goals. A look back to previous years, player like Ben King put up 8.2 disp/2.1 goals, Jeremy Cameron put up 10.5 disp/3 goals, Max King hit 9.5 disp/1.9 goals, and McKay 10.6 disp/1.6 goals in their 20-21 year. Equally, there are a lot of player who break out in their 21-22 year, Tex, Tom Lynch, and Naughton to name a few. You are well in your right to expect a 20-21 year old key forward to take a step forward and be a good to very good contributor and it is past the point where you're just looking for signs, unless there is clear-cut evidence that a player is in a peripheral role.

Anyone saying 'talls take longer to develop' has read the position wrong, it's the same timeline as midfielders. The only position that takes a long time to develop is rucks. There are two main issues a young tall might face - outside of a lack of ability or injuries - that can slow down progression. One is the scenario TT finds himself in, that there is a lack of opportunity to put up strong numbers early in his career due to a settled KPF pairing, or the club panics and starts moving a kid around the park to find a position.

 

[tinman]

Anybody agree with me that he can play key defence yet ?

Not pigeon holed as a 3rd tall intercept player in my book , he has height and getting strength to start to play on the 2nd tall forward

As I’ve said before if Trent McKenzie has done it ok ( pre this year ) then Woz will be much better at being a key defender

Of course he could play as 3rd tall intercept as well , we know that

I’m really excited about our defence , it’s going to be just as exciting as our forward line going forward , there is youth , intercept marking , run and carry and sublime kicking skills . It’s a really modern attacking backline in the making

Worrell is a far better proposition as a key defender than Doedee will ever be

 

[Crows I Am]

Yup, those performances with two key forwards backs up the point the main problem with TT was just a lack of supply directed at him, not anything in his game. Mind you, it's hard to be critical of it because that forward line was both productive and efficient.

That said, his stats don't read that well for a 20-21 year old KPF, they're middling at best with a 10.6 disp/0.9 goals season. Look at JUH who put up 11.5 disp/1.5 goals and McDonald with 9.7 disp/1.6 goals this year as 20-21 year olds. Even in the 19-20 years bracket this year, Van Rooyen is put up 8.7 disp/1.4 goals, Amiss 7.6 disp/1.9 goals. A look back to previous years, player like Ben King put up 8.2 disp/2.1 goals, Jeremy Cameron put up 10.5 disp/3 goals, Max King hit 9.5 disp/1.9 goals, and McKay 10.6 disp/1.6 goals in their 20-21 year. Equally, there are a lot of player who break out in their 21-22 year, Tex, Tom Lynch, and Naughton to name a few. You are well in your right to expect a 20-21 year old key forward to take a step forward and be a good to very good contributor and it is past the point where you're just looking for signs, unless there is clear-cut evidence that a player is in a peripheral role.

Anyone saying 'talls take longer to develop' has read the position wrong, it's the same timeline as midfielders. The only position that takes a long time to develop is rucks. There are two main issues a young tall might face - outside of a lack of ability or injuries - that can slow down progression. One is the scenario TT finds himself in, that there is a lack of opportunity to put up strong numbers early in his career due to a settled KPF pairing, or the club panics and starts moving a kid around the park to find a position.

I was comparing his stats to some of key forwards you mentioned above at the same age. His numbers are very similar to them all except for total goals kicked and marks inside forward 50. These 2 stats are both obviously very important for a key forward so he needs to keep improving these numbers, but for TT he gets much more involved in the game up the ground which would impact his numbers for both goals and marks inside 50. Also, TT spends time in the ruck which the other guys wouldn't have done much of if any and this would also impact his numbers.

But ultimately I believe the presence of Tex in the forward line would be limiting his impact. He would get much less opportunities provided to him compared to someone like Ben or Max King, these guys didn't have someone like Taylor Walker up forward who would be getting a lot of forward 50 entries directed at him. Add in Fog who is another target and it reduces his chances again.

TT needs to get better at taking his chances when the he does get the ball delivered to him, having less opportunities he needs to make the most of them when they are in his zone. If he can do that this year his goals and marks inside 50 will increase and close the gap with the numbers from the guys above.

 

[DJ75]

I think one of the big highlights of preseason so far has been Chayce being able to do the running. I was worried his foot injury would linger and he wouldn’t be match fit.
Hoping there are zero issues here on out.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Yup, those performances with two key forwards backs up the point the main problem with TT was just a lack of supply directed at him, not anything in his game. Mind you, it's hard to be critical of it because that forward line was both productive and efficient.

That said, his stats don't read that well for a 20-21 year old KPF, they're middling at best with a 10.6 disp/0.9 goals season. Look at JUH who put up 11.5 disp/1.5 goals and McDonald with 9.7 disp/1.6 goals this year as 20-21 year olds. Even in the 19-20 years bracket this year, Van Rooyen is put up 8.7 disp/1.4 goals, Amiss 7.6 disp/1.9 goals. A look back to previous years, player like Ben King put up 8.2 disp/2.1 goals, Jeremy Cameron put up 10.5 disp/3 goals, Max King hit 9.5 disp/1.9 goals, and McKay 10.6 disp/1.6 goals in their 20-21 year. Equally, there are a lot of player who break out in their 21-22 year, Tex, Tom Lynch, and Naughton to name a few. You are well in your right to expect a 20-21 year old key forward to take a step forward and be a good to very good contributor and it is past the point where you're just looking for signs, unless there is clear-cut evidence that a player is in a peripheral role.

Anyone saying 'talls take longer to develop' has read the position wrong, it's the same timeline as midfielders. The only position that takes a long time to develop is rucks. There are two main issues a young tall might face - outside of a lack of ability or injuries - that can slow down progression. One is the scenario TT finds himself in, that there is a lack of opportunity to put up strong numbers early in his career due to a settled KPF pairing, or the club panics and starts moving a kid around the park to find a position.

Hang on though… JUH and mcdonald havent been playing for a side that come 16th, 15th and 10th for the first three years of their careers.. not sure its a fair comparison..

 

[Jeffcrowe]

I think one of the big highlights of preseason so far has been Chayce being able to do the running. I was worried his foot injury would linger and he wouldn’t be match fit.
Hoping there are zero issues here on out.

Agree

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Hang on though… JUH and mcdonald havent been playing for a side that come 16th, 15th and 10th for the first three years of their careers.. not sure its a fair comparison..

Also TT plays ruck quite a bit

What he lacks in some stats he makes up in some others so far , eg contested marks

 

[Southerntakeover]

Yup, those performances with two key forwards backs up the point the main problem with TT was just a lack of supply directed at him, not anything in his game. Mind you, it's hard to be critical of it because that forward line was both productive and efficient.

That said, his stats don't read that well for a 20-21 year old KPF, they're middling at best with a 10.6 disp/0.9 goals season. Look at JUH who put up 11.5 disp/1.5 goals and McDonald with 9.7 disp/1.6 goals this year as 20-21 year olds. Even in the 19-20 years bracket this year, Van Rooyen is put up 8.7 disp/1.4 goals, Amiss 7.6 disp/1.9 goals. A look back to previous years, player like Ben King put up 8.2 disp/2.1 goals, Jeremy Cameron put up 10.5 disp/3 goals, Max King hit 9.5 disp/1.9 goals, and McKay 10.6 disp/1.6 goals in their 20-21 year. Equally, there are a lot of player who break out in their 21-22 year, Tex, Tom Lynch, and Naughton to name a few. You are well in your right to expect a 20-21 year old key forward to take a step forward and be a good to very good contributor and it is past the point where you're just looking for signs, unless there is clear-cut evidence that a player is in a peripheral role.

Anyone saying 'talls take longer to develop' has read the position wrong, it's the same timeline as midfielders. The only position that takes a long time to develop is rucks. There are two main issues a young tall might face - outside of a lack of ability or injuries - that can slow down progression. One is the scenario TT finds himself in, that there is a lack of opportunity to put up strong numbers early in his career due to a settled KPF pairing, or the club panics and starts moving a kid around the park to find a position.

Except that's just not true.

Key position players have their peak years substantially later than midfielders.

 

[rabidcrow]

Call it what you like he definitely needs more aggression in his game and to hit packs harder more consistently than he does up to now...essentially use his big strong physique more to his and the team's advantage.

Everyone would agree with that - but that is also true of 80-90% of young KPF’s


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