Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[Roylion]

No, I do not have the question because it has no meaning for me to have such questions. I understand for some Fitzroy fans they died and for others like you they live on.

The Fitzroy Football Club itself lives on. Legally and spiritually. That is undeniable fact. It was even confirmed by the Supreme Court of Victoria in 2010. They play in their AFL jumper and their home ground is at the Brunswick Street Oval, every Saturday during the football season. You can go see it for yourself. They exist as they were founded in 1883 - to represent the suburb of Fitzroy - in Australian rules football.

Both are valid takes on how they see things.

Fitzroy 'died' (i.e. ceased to exist) as an AFL entity, when their licence to compete in the AFL was removed. As a football club. they continue on in their own right as they have done since they were formed in 1883.

 

[Elite Master]

For those that argue that the Fitzroy Lions merged with the Brisbane Bears to become the Brisbane Lions in the AFL in 1997 - do you consider Fitzroy that is competing in the VAFA to be a entirely different football club to the football club that was apart of the VFL/AFL? So do you guys think the VFL/AFL version of Fitzroy from 1897-1996 is dead?

My personal belief is that Roylion is right and that Fitzroy of 2023 is the same Fitzroy from 1897 in the then VFL, or by extension the same Fitzroy from 1884 in the then VFA.

 

[Rob]

For those that argue that the Fitzroy Lions merged with the Brisbane Bears to become the Brisbane Lions in the AFL in 1997 - do you consider Fitzroy that is competing in the VAFA to be a entirely different football club to the football club that was apart of the VFL/AFL? So do you guys think the VFL/AFL version of Fitzroy from 1897-1996 is dead?

My personal belief is that Roylion is right and that Fitzroy of 2023 is the same Fitzroy from 1897 in the then VFL, or by extension the same Fitzroy from 1884 in the then VFA.

Personally I think it's difficult to say. The company that was Fitzroy still exists, but there has to be more to it than that or else anything that happened pre 1981 - I.e when the company was created - wasn't Fitzroy. What is it that makes a footy club?

 

[pz5151]

Probably true, but it has come at a high price. The game is also only ‘sorta‘ NationaL, being distorted by too many Melbourne based Clubs and insufficient in other States.

Fitzroy paid a terrible price as did my mob, South Melbourne. Both the SA and WA comps are pale shadows of what they once were. The VFA here has also gone, swallowed somehow by the gaping maw of the AFL. Less about the National comp and more about AFL, country footy has also paid a high price.

Sticking to 18 teams but a National redistribution is the way to go. As well as Tassie, both WA and SA would easily accommodate a third team. It would also maximise use of existing infrastructure at Optus and AO.

This means reducing the Melbourne based teams by three. The candidates are obvious.

If you think relocating a Melbourne club to Perth or Adelaide is going to lead to increased viability and higher attendances, you are lost.

 

[footyfan1978]

If you think relocating a Melbourne club to Perth or Adelaide is going to lead to increased viability and higher attendances, you are lost.

Yeah, he not making much sense on that one.
7 teams from Vic out of 18 makes no sense when the majority of crowds and players are from where the game itself and very league was created.
Think he just half serious for some kind of reaction.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

If you think relocating a Melbourne club to Perth or Adelaide is going to lead to increased viability and higher attendances, you are lost.

Nope. Melbourne is oversupplied. The Perth and and Adelaide markets would develop their own teams without relocation. They and TAS could have dibs on decent players from the three former Melbourne clubs. The Melbourne clubs would liquidate or move to other Comps.

 

[Coolangatta]

Nope. Melbourne is oversupplied. The Perth and and Adelaide markets would develop their own teams without relocation. They and TAS could have dibs on decent players from the three former Melbourne clubs. The Melbourne clubs would liquidate or move to other Comps.

Yeah, I’ve been informed no one can be made to merge or relocate. They have to agree with it, and they won’t. If there’s ever going to be less than 10 ten teams in Victoria, it’ll be because the AFL removed their licence.

There’s no need for the AFL to have to stay at 18 teams. The league can evolve beyond a single tier system if it needs to. The NBA had 18 teams in 1974, now they have 30. Yes I know, much bigger population, not saying we should have or ever get to that many but why stop? What’s so special about the number 18?

There is enough talent, despite the naysayers claims, for 18 teams, and more in the future unless the AFL junior level participation suddenly falls off the face of the earth.

 

[terrybull]

Yeah, good follow up on what happened it 1981. I assumed that probably what happened but had not heard exactly what in 1981.
Yes, exactly, the legal is just that, important, but for most people it not the club itself. It just a legal framework that all clubs needed as we hit more semi professional era and more and more money involved.

There a lot of pain in many old Fitzroy supporters but it a bit sad when someone like our resident one here thinks there is only one take when for many old Fitzroy supporters that consider it all over no matter what. It just one of those things where they can all have a different take on it and their feelings are just as relevant as the next. Similarly for Bears and South Melbourne supporters there will always be a different take on what happened and what they feel is true for each of them. For some South supporters as far as they concerned when they left the suburb they died for them. For others they live on as the Bloods and both takes are just as important to let each have as their own. Just do not ram a certain one take down everyones throat would be nice to see from some.... All narratives are important to hear from.

Even if it’s the same club, the fact is there is not a lot of Bears left in Brisbane. Image wise. Fitzroy engulfed the Bears with its jumper, logo and history. If people want to believe Brisbane Lions is a continuation of Fitzroy then why not let them despite the truth?

It be great if the Fitzroy spirit remains in the AFL for 100 more years and beyond and never become a forgotten trivia question like University Students. Let the Bears become the trivia question

 

[pz5151]

Nope. Melbourne is oversupplied. The Perth and and Adelaide markets would develop their own teams without relocation. They and TAS could have dibs on decent players from the three former Melbourne clubs. The Melbourne clubs would liquidate or move to other Comps.

This is a separate argument here. You’re right that any new teams from those states would need to be developed (either promotion of a state league team or merged combination of a number of them) but the AFL seems to be aware of the fact that eliminating Melbourne clubs is going to cost them fans. People in Melbourne aren’t fans of the sport of football, they are fans of a particular team. If Collingwood was to die I would be mildly interested in a game here and there and may adopt some loose support for someone like the Dogs who I have a soft spot for but it would never be the same and from a financial perspective, I would be a lost customer to the AFL. If the league cuts any of the old Melbourne teams, even the small ones, they’ll be turning off a huge number of their customers for life.

 

[Roylion]

Personally I think it's difficult to say. The company that was Fitzroy still exists, but there has to be more to it than that or else anything that happened pre 1981 - I.e when the company was created - wasn't Fitzroy. What is it that makes a footy club?

Are clubs that go into recess still football clubs?

Melbourne went into recess for three years during World War I. St Kilda and Essendon for two years and Geelong and South Melbourne for one year (in 1916) where they had no player operations. Geelong went into recess for another two years in 1942 and 1943. I would say they were still football clubs in the meantime, as they still operated off the field.

Fitzroy just went into recess from 1997 - 2008 before returning to the playing arena for the 2009 season.

Even after Fitzroy were removed from the league at the end of 1996 they still had 700 shareholders and a cashflow. From December 1997 Fitzroy began once again issuing ordinary memberships, as they had when in the VFL-AFL. In 1999 they gained naming rights to Coburg Football Club with that club becoming the Coburg-Fitzroy Lions in 1999-2000 and playing some games in the Fitzroy pre-season jumper. In 1999 Fitzroy began a Fitzroy shop selling club merchandise and memorabilia after trademarking the FFC logo. They began sponsoring the Fitzroy (University) Reds who played in their AFL jumper.

 

[Rob]

Are clubs that go into recess still football clubs?

Melbourne went into recess for three years during World War I. St Kilda and Essendon for two years and Geelong and South Melbourne for one year (in 1916) where they had no player operations. Geelong went into recess for another two years in 1942 and 1943. I would say they were still football clubs in the meantime, as they still operated off the field.

Fitzroy just went into recess from 1997 - 2008 before returning to the playing arena for the 2009 season.

Even after Fitzroy were removed from the league at the end of 1996 they still had 700 shareholders and a cashflow. From December 1997 Fitzroy began once again issuing ordinary memberships, as they had when in the VFL-AFL. In 1999 they gained naming rights to Coburg Football Club with that club becoming the Coburg-Fitzroy Lions in 1999-2000 and playing some games in the Fitzroy pre-season jumper. In 1999 Fitzroy began a Fitzroy shop selling club merchandise and memorabilia after trademarking the FFC logo. They began sponsoring the Fitzroy (University) Reds who played in their AFL jumper.

Going into recess is not the same as giving away all the assets that make a football club away.

Like I said: What is it that makes the club?

 

[Blackas87]

Going into recess is not the same as giving away all the assets that make a football club away.

Like I said: What is it that makes the club?

Definition of a club is “an organisation of people with a common purpose or interest, that meet regularly and take part in shared activities.”

I’d say it’s the people that make the club.

 

[royboys4eva]

If people think time heals all wounds they are incorrect. It still hurts that Fitzroy doesn't exist. I support the Brisbane Lions with passion because what else could I do ?? My boys have grown up supporting the Brisbane Lions and so we embrace it and love getting to the Melbourne based games with all the die hard Fitzroy supporters. BTW in our finals matches in Melbourne last year I reckon their would have been close to 15,000- 20,000 Lions fans. Not bad for a club who was kicked out over 20 years ago and treated like a rag doll.

As you can imagine I have read many a Fitzroy book about our history. Basically Oakely made sure we were cooked no matter what our board tried to do. Yes we had big financial problems - we weren't the only club with that issue. We tried taking matches to Tasmania well before Hawks and North got paid to do so. When we played in Tassie - Oakley made sure the matches would be rubbish ones like vs Eagles - we beat them ! He didn't want them to be main televised match.

We took a match to Canberra - guess who against ? Eagles. Hidden away on a Sunday arvo. We tried Galaxy as a sponsor. Oakley said no subscription tv money. Now Fox Sports shows every match live and pays the AFL millions.

As previously mentioned we had a plan to get back to Brunswick oval - our heartland. Money was a big issue and also Oakley and mates got into the ear of the local neighbourhood and they opposed the ground having flood lights. The ground now has flood lights.

Basically the AFL needed a club gone and Fitzroy was it's club. The game was always going to expand but it's sad that a club with such rich history and loyal supporters got eaten up. What disappoints me is we have to manufactured clubs in GWS and Gold Coast who have no right to be there. If the AFL had poured in 5% of money of what they have given those two clubs to the Royboys they may still be around and as others have mentioned if the Bulldogs who were going to merge with the Lions - can get 40,000 Members then who's not to say the Lions wouldn't have got decent numbers in time.

Go to any Brisbane Lions match in Melbourne and you see a great number of Fitzroy supporters.

Go the Royboys.

 

[Roylion]

Definition of a club is “an organisation of people with a common purpose or interest, that meet regularly and take part in shared activities.”

And that exactly what happened after the club came out of administration. The shareholders resolved to continue the club and regular meetings took place between the directors, shareholders and members throughout 1998 and 1999 to rebuild the club. The club never went out of existence.

I’d say it’s the people that make the club.

And there were people involved with the club throughout. Shareholders who were supporters like myself. Other supporters who became paid up members the moment the club began taking ordinary memberships.

 

[Blackas87]

And that exactly what happened after the club came out of administration. The shareholders resolved to continue the club and regular meetings took place between the directors, shareholders and members throughout 1998 and 1999 to rebuild the club. The club never went out of existence.


And there were people involved with the club throughout. Shareholders who were supporters like myself. Other supporters who became paid up members the moment the club began taking ordinary memberships.

Absolutely, and that’s why Fitzroy the club still exists. It’s not the assets that make a club.

 

[Rob]

And that exactly what happened after the club came out of administration. The shareholders resolved to continue the club and regular meetings took place between the directors, shareholders and members throughout 1998 and 1999 to rebuild the club. The club never went out of existence.


And there were people involved with the club throughout. Shareholders who were supporters like myself. Other supporters who became paid up members the moment the club began taking ordinary memberships.

The company never went out of existence, but that company was in no way capable of fielding a football club as all the assets it owned that related to that had been disposed of.

I'm not disagreeing with you (i'm pretty neutral in this), but every company has directors and shareholders. There has to be more than that to be a football club. Otherwise the club as you see it didn't exist before 1981.

 

[pz5151]

If people think time heals all wounds they are incorrect. It still hurts that Fitzroy doesn't exist. I support the Brisbane Lions with passion because what else could I do ?? My boys have grown up supporting the Brisbane Lions and so we embrace it and love getting to the Melbourne based games with all the die hard Fitzroy supporters. BTW in our finals matches in Melbourne last year I reckon their would have been close to 15,000- 20,000 Lions fans. Not bad for a club who was kicked out over 20 years ago and treated like a rag doll.

As you can imagine I have read many a Fitzroy book about our history. Basically Oakely made sure we were cooked no matter what our board tried to do. Yes we had big financial problems - we weren't the only club with that issue. We tried taking matches to Tasmania well before Hawks and North got paid to do so. When we played in Tassie - Oakley made sure the matches would be rubbish ones like vs Eagles - we beat them ! He didn't want them to be main televised match.

We took a match to Canberra - guess who against ? Eagles. Hidden away on a Sunday arvo. We tried Galaxy as a sponsor. Oakley said no subscription tv money. Now Fox Sports shows every match live and pays the AFL millions.

As previously mentioned we had a plan to get back to Brunswick oval - our heartland. Money was a big issue and also Oakley and mates got into the ear of the local neighbourhood and they opposed the ground having flood lights. The ground now has flood lights.

Basically the AFL needed a club gone and Fitzroy was it's club. The game was always going to expand but it's sad that a club with such rich history and loyal supporters got eaten up. What disappoints me is we have to manufactured clubs in GWS and Gold Coast who have no right to be there. If the AFL had poured in 5% of money of what they have given those two clubs to the Royboys they may still be around and as others have mentioned if the Bulldogs who were going to merge with the Lions - can get 40,000 Members then who's not to say the Lions wouldn't have got decent numbers in time.

Go to any Brisbane Lions match in Melbourne and you see a great number of Fitzroy supporters.

Go the Royboys.

Brings back memories of the F you Oakley bumper stickers. I always remember how Fitzroy and the other small Vic clubs were treated to make room for Port when I hear west and south Aussies claiming a Vic bias.

The AFL should have let you guys go to Tassie, it would have been a much better option for everyone.

Geographically you guys had a rough deal being wedged between Carlton and Collingwood and it was always going to make it very tough to build a supporter base.

 

[Blackas87]

The company never went out of existence, but that company was in no way capable of fielding a football club as all the assets it owned that related to that had been disposed of.

A club is the people, not the assets. The club still existed, it just wasn’t capable of fielding a football team.

 

[footyfan1978]

Even if it’s the same club, the fact is there is not a lot of Bears left in Brisbane. Image wise. Fitzroy engulfed the Bears with its jumper, logo and history.

But did it really? It looks like Bears and Fitzroy both lost out a bit of image in this AFL run merger. The old Bears image is all gone. It is really just gone half way between Bears and Fitzroy colours which is ok in look but if you were a Bears fan from start you now lost maybe the aspect you loved and identified most. But I was not a Bears fan so cannot really know for sure but from outside this AFL run merger allowed for the Brisbane name to be the identity of the club and Lions nickname now added to try to make Fitzroy fans happy but when it not in your location it not much but token gesture within a so called merger. I mean if they had honoured the idea of playing in Fitzroy jumper when in Melbourne that really would have felt something more meaningful and though they done that a few times and it looked wonderful, they not really honoured the amount of
games in Melbourne to satisfy the few remaning Fitzroy fans there was left. So when I look at it, it seems both Bears and Fitzroy fans both lost out in this AFL run merger. But if you Brisbane based and Bears colours and image was not the main reason you followed them, it easier to digest this merger and embrace this merger as the Brisbane Lions. I mean, as an outsider their jumpers are nice, they play in Brisbane so it has not failed in terms of a club in Brisbane for AFL but if I was an original Bears pioneer fan and had no say in it, I may just have been peeved at Noel Gordon and the AFL run merger and feel it not the club I joined up for from the start. I feel for the few that felt like that, just as I feel for Fitzroy fans that no longer had their club that played in the league since the beginning of the actual league be there anymore. Yeah, you can see a little of Fitzroy colours and Lions emblem with the Noel Gordon and AFL takeover of Bears and Brisbane and so it at least looks the closest to your old Fitzroy club in this league but how it all feels is very different for each original fan of Fitzroy and Bears supporters from before that event.

If people want to believe Brisbane Lions is a continuation of Fitzroy then why not let them despite the truth?

I will not stop Fitzroy fans that want to believe Brisbane Lions is a continuation of their club or stop those that see it as a "rebranding" or stop those that believe it is neither of these and both clubs were screwed in this deal by the AFL and it just a new entity from 1997 onwards. As an outsider all those are valid feelings to see for how each supporter may have felt and identified with the club they followed before 1997. That is the truth to me, that all takes are valid and to say it is only one of those and everyone has to believe that take only is the nonsense I do not buy that some try to sell as the only take on what happended for Bears and Fitzroy fans. Basically whatever makes each fan happy. I feel more for the ones that simply say my club died at end of 1996 and I not buying any version of events by the AFL or others that the club I followed still is there in the AFL. Similarly I felt for any South fans that simply felt once Swans left and relocated it was a different club for them and not the one they followed originally. How each person feels is their truth.

It be great if the Fitzroy spirit remains in the AFL for 100 more years and beyond and never become a forgotten trivia question like University Students. Let the Bears become the trivia question

I dunno, i just feel mainly sad about it and do not see much humour in what happened.

As for University well ironincally they broke up into University Black, Blue and even Red after their league days and the Reds relocated to the suburb of Fitzroy and have the nice gesture of wearing something like the old Fitzroy jumper now and sounds like they will try to honour the history of Fitzroy which is really nice to see so that maybe the closest thing to the spirit of Fitzroy that still around in some form. Least it at one of their old grounds. Hey, a "rebranding" or "merger"of University Reds to Fitzroy Reds after their move to suburb of Fitzroy is at least something for a few old Fitzroy fans to make some joy from which is wonderful. May it long continue.

Meanwhile the ghosts of West Melbourne football club and their fans would feel differently about University Students club history as they apparently took over the ground Wests played on and then took the spot in the league they thought they could have themselves. Then with that atttempt to join the league over the Wests could not even continue to play in the VFA at the time and so that was the end of them.

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

Yeah, I’ve been informed no one can be made to merge or relocate. They have to agree with it, and they won’t. If there’s ever going to be less than 10 ten teams in Victoria, it’ll be because the AFL removed their licence.

There’s no need for the AFL to have to stay at 18 teams. The league can evolve beyond a single tier system if it needs to. The NBA had 18 teams in 1974, now they have 30. Yes I know, much bigger population, not saying we should have or ever get to that many but why stop? What’s so special about the number 18?

There is enough talent, despite the naysayers claims, for 18 teams, and more in the future unless the AFL junior level participation suddenly falls off the face of the earth.

People don't like change. Simple as that.

 

[footyfan1978]

Going into recess is not the same as giving away all the assets that make a football club away.

Like I said: What is it that makes the club?

Well a club could be anything where people join together for social activity whether it be sport or play card games or fitness club. etc etc and be a member of it. There are book clubs even etc etc.
Most of us see our football clubs as either something we play for or watch and support the actual ones playing for our club if we are a member of it, or follow it regularly, or help it run as a club to keep playing.

 

[footyfan1978]

People don't like change. Simple as that.

I liked the World Series Cricket.

 

[timokane]

Miss the Roys would have been happy if they won 2001-2003 flags as Fitzroy instead of been smuggled up to Brisbane in order for the quick buck.
Miss the old roys.

 

[Rob]

Well a club could be anything where eople join together for social activity whether it be sport or play card games or fitness club etc etc and be a member of it. There are book clubs even etc etc.
Most of us see our football clubs as either some we play for or watch and support the actually ones playing for our club if we are a member of it or follow it regularly or help it run as a club to keep playing.

Good post.

So to relate to a book club - let's say the Wiggle book club consists of a bunch of books and some tables and chairs. They are all sold to the Waggle book club, including the register of members which is now to be known as the Wiggle Waggle book club.
Does the Wiggle book club still exist?

 

[footyfan1978]

Good post.

So to relate to a book club - let's say the Wiggle book club consists of a bunch of books and some tables and chairs. They are all sold to the Waggle book club, including the register of members which is now to be known as the Wiggle Waggle book club.
Does the Wiggle book club still exist?

If they decide to get together to reform their Wiggle book club with more books, tables and chairs then no reason it cannot. But if most of old members do not join or it only has tables and chairs without the books it once had, it still some form of club but it probably no longer feels like the club many members joined up for so most probably do not come back and lifeblood of original club is kind of gone but another version of the club can still exist.