Autopsy Rd 23 Carlton v Port Post Match Discussion

[Garth Vader]

Just me or is that one of the best Carlton pics you've seen..

Yup, definitely. My personal favourite is the one of F.Brown with his arms in the air and body seemingly arched backwards at an impossible angle, following the '95 GF. Magnificent photo that beautifully captures the moment. Actually, I think Pepalenko has it as his avatar??

Edit: here it is.. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ffximage/wb_afl_1999_brown_wideweb__470x276,2.jpg

...and it's after the 99' finals win - apologies.

 

[pepalenko]

Yup, definitely. My personal favourite is the one of F.Brown with his arms in the air and body seemingly arched backwards at an impossible angle, following the '95 GF. Magnificent photo that beautifully captures the moment. Actually, I think Pepalenko has it as his avatar??

Edit: here it is.. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ffximage/wb_afl_1999_brown_wideweb__470x276,2.jpg

...and it's after the 99' finals win - apologies.

 

[thylacine60]

agree - just sensational

 

[Murphkreuzmitch]

Yup, definitely. My personal favourite is the one of F.Brown with his arms in the air and body seemingly arched backwards at an impossible angle, following the '95 GF. Magnificent photo that beautifully captures the moment. Actually, I think Pepalenko has it as his avatar??

Edit: here it is.. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ffximage/wb_afl_1999_brown_wideweb__470x276,2.jpg

...and it's after the 99' finals win - apologies.

After dean wallis ran into the junkyard dogs jawgrip...

 

[Silvagnis]

Gibbs kick it out in front of Waite who leads on to it and converts.

Boak overkicks the pass to Schulz who was spoiled by Jamison.

Bad kicking is bad football.

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[zeeCFC]

Gibbs coming out of congestion with a Port player on his tail, enter the Menzel as he flattens Port player and gives Gibbs the time to kick to Waite for the winning goal.

 

[thylacine60]

I said it before, Menzel lined up at the CHF point of the square and as the ball was bounced he basically locked onto it - Cornes got in the way and got satted downed.

 

[Silvagnis]

Menzel used his body to take a contested mark against Schulz who made him earn it. Troy let him know that he didn't appreciate the professional free. Tough kid.

 

[blueboy25]

I said it before, Menzel lined up at the CHF point of the square and as the ball was bounced he basically locked onto it - Cornes got in the way and got satted downed.

I bet poor old Cornesy was a bit sore on sunday morning after both duigan and Menz put him on his posterior.

 

[GordonBlue]

Watching that AFL Insider video and seeing Scott watching his season disappear on replay is oh so sweet

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Watching that AFL Insider video and seeing Scott watching his season disappear on replay is oh so sweet

Indeed, that last bit when whoever it was hit the post while Monfries is 20 yards out, 20 yards in the clear......well I missed that bit, was busy banging my head against the Bar while praying to little baby Jesus.

 

[BM123]

Not bad for an 18 y.o. was it?
We'll get the same from Graham so there's plenty of tackling ability coming on from those two guys, at least.

Cachia goes O.K. also and we just need Temay to come to the party now.

I think we are a few short of a top team so if Menzel and Graham really step up next year then we should be a lot better.

 

[Silvagnis]

AFLCA votes
Port Adelaide vs Carlton
10 Gibbs (Carl)
8 Ebert (Port)
4 Murphy (Carl)
4 Walker (Carl)
2 Cornes (Port)
2 Westhoff (Port)

Carlton votes
47 Simpson
35 Mclean
34 Walker
29 Murphy
26 Garlett
25 Henderson Gibbs
23 Waite
17 Judd
16 Curnow Kreuzer Robinson
12 Yarran
9 Betts
8 Scotland
7 Armfield
5 Carrazzo
3 Jamison Tuohy
2 Cachia

 

[Windhover]

Look at me all you want. I posted stats to back up what I had said. Just because we then have a good last quarter, it doesn't make what has occurred before it any less true.

Yes, you did post stats (elsewhere) to back up your claim that Carlton had developed the "trait", (your word) of not being able to compete adequately at the end of games. Presumably the purpose of your claim was to make predictive statements about future events.

As it happened I thought, despite the hard worked case you made based on "the stats", that Carlton had no such "trait" and that insofar as the stats meant anything they were simply an artefact of us losing games to better sides.

As you rightly point out, that in the very next game following our exchange of opinion we beat Port by over-running them in the last quarter, does not mean you are necessarily wrong. But it does significantly damage the predictive value of your statement. And, to be fair to me, it rather enhances the opinion I expressed. [When you consider that Port has an excellent record this year of over-running other sides in last quarters; that Port had no apparent significant injury worry; and that Port certainly appeared to be continuing to try right to the end; - this might further enhance the opinion I expressed.]

As for the implication, better to address what I said, not what you think I meant. I have been suggesting all year, including in our podcasts that I believe Mick's game plan is tiring and we run out of legs.

So let me get this right. First you blame the game plan. Second you blame the player fitness. Or do you say we run out of legs only because of the inadequate game plan?

PS: For the record, what I based my inference on was your statement as follows:
[We go missing in last quarters and we go missing in late games when things are on the line. It's a very worrying trait.]
The bald assertion rather suggests, or at least leaves open, a complaint about the fitness of the players. If you are instead blaming the game plan I think there is much for your opinion (but I did not gather that was so since you also relied on earlier years as well in making your case).

I have also suggested that we need to play to our strengths and run with the ball more often.

I frankly do not know what you mean so will pass no comment.

Not a lot of future in trying to call out fellow supporters. We're more community and less point scoring here.

I was/am not trying to "call" you "out". We had/ve a disagreement about whether Carlton had a "trait" that you believed, based on your statistical research, was well founded. It is surely reasonable for me to refer to recent evidence (the Port game) that supports my position against your stats. It is not intended to be point scoring and it is unfair of you (dare I say "oversensitive") to suggest it is. It is intended to be no more than presentation of a counterfactual. You are perfectly entitled, as I have already mentioned, to find the counterfactual uncompelling.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Windhover, this is not the Politics board mate.

What we do here is speculate, analyse, discuss. If someone is not being derogatory or insulting towards the team, I don’t see the value in challenging or nitpicking over the terminology they use. Whether you think you were or not, the fact that you specifically posted to return to a previous discussion and tag me with the line 'looking at you ODN', is very much an exercise in point scoring in my book. I wasn't at all being sensitive. I like to discuss things with a view to finding answers, not with a view to being right or to take such a stringent stance, that I should be taken to task for being wrong. I just want to see where we can improve. I looked at some statistical data to see whether a thought held up, you disagreed, there is nothing conclusive either way, so not a lot of need to tag me into a disagreeing post. It seemed like you were looking for an argument where some additional data to add weight to the discussion would have sufficed.

Moving on. In terms of what caused these fadeouts, I am open to ideas there. I've long believed that we have had a certain mental fragility, and we are unable to sustain intensity for as long as is required. This could be in red time of quarters rather than the very end of a match or just for spells during a match. When I posted stats in relation to previous years, I was of the belief we ran out last quarters better a couple of years back. The comparison of previous years was purely to see if we were any worse late in games this year, so it was entirely based on game plan. It makes sense that a game plan full of defensive running, creating contests and getting to contests would be more taxing. There was some back up of my original thoughts but not nearly enough to be definitive. Via our podcast and through starting threads, I have invited analysis of the stats I compiled.

I was more definitive about last quarters this year as the mainstream media picked up on it, and there was much main board discussion about it, with Carlton being a lot higher up the ladder when taking into account the first three quarters only. It doesn't bother me whether it was good teams or otherwise that this 'trait' exhibited itself. I believe we are supposed to be one of those good teams, and other clubs around our level were showing more in last quarters than we were. It is not acceptable to fade out in final quarters, simply because the opposition is high quality. We need to address that to progress.

 

[Blueseyes]

Just watched the game again and was really impressed with Menzel's kick around the corner to Murph. Dunno how many of our players would've had the fore site to kick around the corner and more to the advantage of the player. Feel like a lot of athletes would've gone for a drop punt that probably would've given the port player more of a chance of a spoil. Footy smarts ftw!!

 

[Windhover]

I was more definitive about last quarters this year as the mainstream media picked up on it, and there was much main board discussion about it, with Carlton being a lot higher up the ladder when taking into account the first three quarters only. It doesn't bother me whether it was good teams or otherwise that this 'trait' exhibited itself. I believe we are supposed to be one of those good teams, and other clubs around our level were showing more in last quarters than we were. It is not acceptable to fade out in final quarters, simply because the opposition is high quality. We need to address that to progress.

Like you I believe we are supposed to be one of the good teams. I am in the regrettable position of thinking that our list is good enough that with a good run with injuries we can challenge for the Premiership. Our form this year has significantly disappointed me (and no doubt you among others).

My point is that the observation that we fade out in final quarters, as something that "we need to address . . .to progress" requires finding the cause of the fade out. As I believe that we are blessed with very strong runners - Curnow, Bell, McLean, Walker, Armfield, Gibbs and Simpson in particular impress - I do not look at the fitness of the players as the cause. It seems to me that the first Richmond game and the recent Port game demonstrate that when we give up trying to follow any sort of MM game plan we actually play with confidence and a sense of purpose which reflects on the scoreboard. When we try to keep following the gameplan we can hold things for a while but uncertainty seeps in and confidence abates. This is magnified in last quarters.

In this regard I am highly critical of MM. IMO it is the coach's responsibility to ensure that the game plan imposed is (1) a game plan suitable for the players at hand; and (2) is drilled into the players so that it is second nature. In relation to (1) I have posted from the start of this year that I have been underwhelmed by the relatively poor integration of Warnock and Bell into the main side when, IMO, they should have been walk up starts when fit. Presumably MM had a "gameplan" that did not require ensuring the other side did not get first hands on the ball in ruck contests and did not involve the deployment of a powerhouse midfielder to give real grunt all around the ground. I find this passing strange.


In relation to (2) I think the evidence is everywhere to be seen. In part I think football has evolved since 2010 when MM was the successful coach with an innovative gameplan. I think MM thought that the beautiful gameplan he had developed could be relatively easily adapted to the Carlton list. I think MM had thought the gameplan could withstand coaching tactics designed to exploit his gameplan. IMO the most recent Essadan game most amply demonstrated how we were exploited. Time and again our players kicked long from defence to the wing or half-back flank boundary line (apparently a hallmark of the MM gameplan) to find that we were outnumbered 2 and at times 3 to 1. For those who think that MM needs more time to inject his gameplan into the side I have only one word in response: Hinkley.

I do not wish to seem overly negative in relation to MM. I am sure he would agree he has not performed well as coach this year. I am sure if he can lift his game, get some younger blood into the assistant coaches, rethink his gameplan taking into account the players he now knows we will improve markedly and our player cupboard, which many think needs restocking, will be replete with quality footballers and, more importantly having regard to your observed "trait", we will find that like the blues of old we will blow good sides away in the 3rd Q and use the last Q to work on whatever is appropriate whilst still making sure the game is won.

 

[Aphrodite]

#BELIEVE

 

[jusjoshin]

Awesome win guys.

Good luck for next week against the COLA.

 

[Aphrodite]

Awesome win guys.

Good luck for next week against the COLA.

That was last week.

What about about our awesome win yesterday.

 

[jusjoshin]

That was last week.

What about about our awesome win yesterday.

I might be missing something, but I've always heard the COLA term referencing Sydney (and Brissy when they were still getting it). Total farce anyway, as the latest studies show Perth to be more expensive.I guess we don't live in rugby states.

 

[Aphrodite]

I might be missing something, but I've always heard the COLA term referencing Sydney (and Brissy when they were still getting it). Total farce anyway, as the latest studies show Perth to be more expensive.I guess we don't live in rugby states.

I just thought you posted in the wrong thread as this is the Carl v Port thread.

Definitely a total farce (COLA)

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Indeed, can't believe this thread is still going even though it's 2 christmas's ago.


.......and it's gunna be christmas again on Saturday. Man, they are flying along.