AFL Autopsy RND 4: Dons Demolished

[Wahooti Fandango]

I did not see the game, looking forward to watching the replay...

 

[Mercurial89]

Hang on . Ready or can play ?
And as far as Tsatas goes he needed to go back.
I want the best development for the young blokes . That is not always just playing them .

Getting beaten in the vfl or beaten in the seniors.

If you aren't playing for the single year goal than what is the issue with playing at the top level and getting the exposure to the pace and level.

Instead of double handling them, getting them up to vfl speed and then having to reintegrate them into seniors.

 

[ghostdog]

His point (without putting words in your mouth Milanista28, pull me up if wrong) is that he would rather play the guys who may have a future rather than others who do not, chasing results this year.

Lose more now, finish lower, have a better shot at accumulating talent.
Let them learn and fail at the actual level.

That's what I mean, too.

 

[BrunoV]

I mentioned trading Hobbs. You don't reckon Caldwell has the same capacity? Because he's being wasted in the forwardline. Fix the forwardline, move Caldwell into the midfield and we can be done with it. We need more pace in the midfield mix.

I could just still be pissed with Hobbs' efforts and disposal last night but I thonk it's definitely worth considering.

Caldwell is an intense player and I like him but his intensity is generally pressure related and attack on the ball. He doesn't have the core for the first touch play I'm talking about.

Caldwell certainly needs to play more on ball with Perkins and Hobbs. We need less Merrett and Parish inside.

I'm not going to die on the Hobbs Hill by the way. He's the right style of player but I'm not convinced about his quality or effectiveness. I suspect if we gave a kid like Ned Long a chance he'd very quickly become that guy. But reputation counts for much more than actual quality.

 

[Milanista28]

Hang on . Ready or can play ?
And as far as Tsatas goes he needed to go back.
I want the best development for the young blokes . That is not always just playing them .

Is Harley Reid ready? Was Cadman ready last year? Or did they play because they could? Cadman looked horrible last year, didn't stop them from giving them games. I've seen a bunch of players who aren't 'ready' yet play games in 2024.

Our senior players who are 'ready' make mistakes every week and play the next, our kids who aren't 'ready' make mistakes and need to go learn in the VFL.

Hayes was obviously the choice to replace Reid after round 1, Laverde has nothing left to give, we aren't learning anything new from him.

I'm not worried about losing with kids, I hate losing with experience players who have peaked.

 

[ghostdog]

Caldwell is an intense player and I like him but his intensity is generally pressure related and attack on the ball. He doesn't have the core for the first touch play I'm talking about.

Caldwell certainly needs to play more on ball with Perkins and Hobbs. We need less Merrett and Parish inside.

You don't think we need more speed in the mix?

 

[There's other teams?]

I read a lot of negative stuff about Essendon but I think its an over reaction. Last year Port finished 3rd despite a banged up FF and a banged up FB and a banged up ruckman. Port have fixed all those problems in the off season and in my opinion are still a top 4 side. Essendon finished 11th last season I don't have a clue if you have a better team this year but it's quite reasonable for a mid table team to get a belting from a top 4 team. Who is your mid field run with player because I could not identify him last night. Someone shirt fronted Rozee and despite my distaste for that level of physicality it pays off just ask Maynard from Collingwood.

 

[FootyGuru]

Would people be satisfied with potentially being worse than what we dished up last night to blood some young guys? I’m not sure our more senior players would.

I think we can make some subtle changes to the team that gives us a taste of both blooding some guys of need and still putting out a side that can win.

I’d like the following changes to be made.

Shiel comes in for Kelly. Play him across the wings and half back and bit up forward as we need him. Gives us burst and agility.

Durham just replaces Perkins in his role.

Menzie comes out and he is replaced by Archie roberts. I know roberts has primarily played back/wing but see if he can set up some team mates and hit the scoreboard across the forward line. This is not the best situation,
Frankly sick of hind and menzie and both Daveys look way off it at vfl level.

Lual to come in as the sub, can play Hb wings and give us speed and agility. Maybe he is a sub for a ruck or potentially Robert’s or Shiel.

Almost nearly moving Hobbs for tsatas too. Tsatas gives us more height and speed. I think both are gonna be playing majority forward anyway. So I’ll leave it.

Parish needs to play more forward, like Merrett has.

 

[sameolds33]

Yeah for 3 quarters they got done, firmly, almost to the point where you throw your hands up and yield if you’re in the back 6 or the front 6.

I’ve seen us play far, far worse but the almost untouchable dominance out of the centre killed the game, I wouldn’t say we were noticeably soft in the contest or we stopped working, we just got squashed.

I’m very disappointed that Scott didn’t make alterations on the fly to try and stop some of the bleeding coming out of stoppage but then again he’s Brad Scott and he doesn’t ever do anything on the fly.

He should be copping well deserved heat this week.

Yeah, I'm not sure that it's the coach's fault. We started well and that's when the team was following the plan. It all went south in Q2 when we had plenty of the play but failed to convert. Menzie's poster sticks in my mind as a turning point.

Every time Port went forward they scored - were 7:1 at one point. You've got to think our lack of mental toughness contributed to the capitulation. And it's not such a bad thing that the coach leaves it to the players to respond.

I said in the game day thread that we were tested and found wanting. Each player now has a clearer picture of where he's at when it comes to the review than if the coach tried to stem the flow by changing things on match day. I can see why Brad didn't make any changes - it's the sink or swim mentality. Worsfold did it too. It's part of teaching players how to take responsibility, both for themselves and for the team.

 

[sameolds33]

I did not see the game, looking forward to watching the replay...

watch the first quarter. We played really well.

 

[BrunoV]

You don't think we need more speed in the mix?

Neither JHF nor Butters is particularly quick.

Melbourne doesnt have much speed and neither does Brisbane.

Grunt is a much bigger factor. Last night was just a perfect storm and made the players look slower than they are. We looked much quicker than Hawthorn in the middle in R1 and I'd say they probably have 2 or 3 of the quickest mids consistently playing in the middle in that match. It's very hard to look quick when you're just being pushed off as a launching pad for your opponent.

 

[sameolds33]

Disagree, there is only doubt on Caddy, Hayes, Bryan, Tsatas, Roberts can play

Goldy, Laverde, Kelly, Heppell help performance in 2024 only, they aren't long term players, raw players without experience are who we should play as often as possible.

What is the point of losing the way we did last night with an old team?

It's part of the building process. You pick your strongest team every week because the object of the game is to win.

 

[bombreys]

Would people be satisfied with potentially being worse than what we dished up last night to blood some young guys? I’m not sure our more senior players would.

I think we can make some subtle changes to the team that gives us a taste of both blooding some guys of need and still putting out a side that can win.

I’d like the following changes to be made.

Shiel comes in for Kelly. Play him across the wings and half back and bit up forward as we need him. Gives us burst and agility.

Durham just replaces Perkins in his role.

Menzie comes out and he is replaced by Archie roberts. I know roberts has primarily played back/wing but see if he can set up some team mates and hit the scoreboard across the forward line. This is not the best situation,
Frankly sick of hind and menzie and both Daveys look way off it at vfl level.

Lual to come in as the sub, can play Hb wings and give us speed and agility. Maybe he is a sub for a ruck or potentially Robert’s or Shiel.

Almost nearly moving Hobbs for tsatas too. Tsatas gives us more height and speed. I think both are gonna be playing majority forward anyway. So I’ll leave it.

Parish needs to play more forward, like Merrett has.

Who gives a toss what the senior players think? They dished up the 12 goal loss

And who says we’d be worse? Hayes almost certainly makes us better if he plays last night.

 

[brain taylor]

Would people be satisfied with potentially being worse than what we dished up last night to blood some young guys? I’m not sure our more senior players would.

most of our more senior players are shithouse

 

[yodellinhank]

I said in the game day thread that we were tested and found wanting. Each player now has a clearer picture of where he's at when it comes to the review

Yes

(than) if the coach tried to stem the flow by changing things on match day. I can see why Brad didn't make any changes - it's the sink or swim mentality.

According to Scott he did. Each time they beat us a different way, which goes to what you said earlier

Worsfold did it too. It's part of teaching players how to take responsibility, both for themselves and for the team.

A post from a Norfie last night that was removed seemed to describe Scott as Worsfold but with political nous.

 

[jannissary]

I read a lot of negative stuff about Essendon but I think its an over reaction. Last year Port finished 3rd despite a banged up FF and a banged up FB and a banged up ruckman. Port have fixed all those problems in the off season and in my opinion are still a top 4 side. Essendon finished 11th last season I don't have a clue if you have a better team this year but it's quite reasonable for a mid table team to get a belting from a top 4 team. Who is your mid field run with player because I could not identify him last night. Someone shirt fronted Rozee and despite my distaste for that level of physicality it pays off just ask Maynard from Collingwood.

i don't disagree upon a retrospective sleep and what not but i stand by the fact that it's indicative of how we've been for the past 20~ years

 

[sameolds33]

According to Scott he did. Each time they beat us a different way, which goes to what you said earlier

He didn't change much from what I could see. Left each player in the same starting position, didn't tag Rozee. Don't think that I said, "each time they beat us in a different way".

 

[yodellinhank]

Don't think that I said, "each time they beat us in a different way".

We were tested and found wanting.

 

[brain taylor]

i don't disagree upon a retrospective sleep and what not but i stand by the fact that it's indicative of how we've been for the past 20~ years

funny i woke up angrier than ever. shouldn't have read your analysis before getting out of bed.

 

[jannissary]

Is Harley Reid ready? Was Cadman ready last year? Or did they play because they could? Cadman looked horrible last year, didn't stop them from giving them games. I've seen a bunch of players who aren't 'ready' yet play games in 2024.

Our senior players who are 'ready' make mistakes every week and play the next, our kids who aren't 'ready' make mistakes and need to go learn in the VFL.

Hayes was obviously the choice to replace Reid after round 1, Laverde has nothing left to give, we aren't learning anything new from him.

I'm not worried about losing with kids, I hate losing with experience players who have peaked.

i agree big time with this, give 'em games, i don't mind if we're losing if we commit to getting games into youth

 

[ant555]

Is Harley Reid ready? Was Cadman ready last year? Or did they play because they could? Cadman looked horrible last year, didn't stop them from giving them games. I've seen a bunch of players who aren't 'ready' yet play games in 2024.

Our senior players who are 'ready' make mistakes every week and play the next, our kids who aren't 'ready' make mistakes and need to go learn in the VFL.

Hayes was obviously the choice to replace Reid after round 1, Laverde has nothing left to give, we aren't learning anything new from him.

I'm not worried about losing with kids, I hate losing with experience players who have peaked.

Did Cadman play all season ? No he played 12 games and was subbed off in 4 of them.

Now for who you mentioned.

Hayes was actually not the obvious choice to replace Reid because he had not been a front runner in all the match sim in January. He did not shine in either the Saints match sim game or the Geelong practice match. The only reason you can say right now you could pick him is he has gone out on the field in the VFL and played okay week one and very good week two. Problem is that is after Reid went down and we actually won last week so chnages where unlikely.

Tsatas. Well he was given a chance but he committed the major sin of not trying to get to contests and not going when he should have which is much different to trying but not being good enough.

We do play kids.
Hobbs 17 & 18 games.
Perkins 21 & 18 & 23 games.
Cox 22 games first year then injured.
Jones 16 games second year.
Reid even when he is not ready.
Menzie 22 games second year.
Durham 7 games after the MSD and then 20 & 22 games.

It is not one size fits all and the balance is fine. You also do not want to be Carlton or North.
The best way for the kids to shine is actually play along side a bunch of more experienced players.

 

[jannissary]

funny i woke up angrier than ever. shouldn't have read your analysis before getting out of bed.

i have no apology to make because i was fuming last night

 

[ant555]

Getting beaten in the vfl or beaten in the seniors.

If you aren't playing for the single year goal than what is the issue with playing at the top level and getting the exposure to the pace and level.

Instead of double handling them, getting them up to vfl speed and then having to reintegrate them into seniors.

Did not hurt Ridley and Redman to both play under 4 games in year one and then under 8 games in year despite the fact we where a mid range side then too.
Then we have the situation with Jones and Cox who both played a lot early then had an injury and now how had confidence issues after jumping back in the side off limited form.
My view is we have hurt Reid by pushing him too far early.
Scott played Perkins midfield last year despite his midfield form being a bit meh.
He played Menzie all year.
And to top it all off. We have played 4 games. The VFL has played 2 games and this is the first week we have been terrible.
Sometimes blokes really are not ready.

 

[ant555]

Scott playing our most experienced side because he doesn't have any patience, he like the club are desperate to win now, all that happens is we outplay our true position of bottom 3 and finish closer to 10th.

I did want to reply to this part as I did not earlier.
It is total rubbish.
If it was the case he would be pumping us up for finals and not formatting an 8 year plan for the younger blokes on the list and he would also not continual in saying it is about building an elite system first before you look at the next step.

 

[Milanista28]

It's part of the building process. You pick your strongest team every week because the object of the game is to win.

Completely disagree, what benefit does Goldstein provide our future if we play him all year only for him to retire at the end of the year? Surely Bryan starting 2025 with an extra 15-20 games at senior level is better?

I want to expose Bryan to the big dogs, let him get bashed up, see how he responds, build resilience if he doesn't then he's probably not cut out for elite league footy.