Autopsy Round 20, 2022: St.Kilda v Hawthorn

[gringo2011]

I see the problem as being more about how we win the ball and transition it to the forward line.

But I feel like we win a lot of turnover ball where the opposition defence is already flooded and the kicker is coming out of a contested congested situation with very little time to make the right choice and execute an effective kick.

It’s like having a shot clock, but where if you don’t kick in time instead of a buzzer you get tackled and lose possession. If a lead has NOT presented to a ball carrier within say 2-3 seconds then the default setting is probably to float one in to the top of the square. At least that gives Max a chance to bring the ball to ground and hopefully Butler, Higgins, et al can do the work.

There is no doubt that our best looks are clean takeaways from the centre square bounce, and running handball chains from deep out of defence. We just struggle with clearance and rebound against the best teams. And hence a lot of our entries are from forward half turnover and rushed or under pressure.

What we need are a couple of forwards that can run and clunk or fly at the the ball in a pack, and take some of the pressure off Max. Marshall, Hayes, Sharman are all capable of that. Membrey needs the kick to be to advantage. Ryder needs a leading lane.

We also need Webster, Paton and Battle and Sharman to be better at moving the ball quickly through the middle so our wingers can be running at a decent look inside 50. I feel like Hill & Sinclair already work tirelessly in this space but they need more support, whether it be in the form of running options or penetrating kicking around them. Naz a big piece of this jigsaw.

* me. I have no idea what I’m talking about.

I reckon Membrey was the big holder upper last night, his stop and wait seems to take for ever.

 

[Joffaboy]

Wonder if we were all just cooked after a game in a bog and a six day break?
Ross is pretty fit and he was looking tired at the end.
Hanners would not be match fit to keep going full steam right to the end, which is understandable.

You could see it nearing 3/4 time, the run had dried up.
Hawks came hard, what I like was we lifted in the last 5 minutes and put the game to sleep with stout pressure and defence.

 

[Cairnsman]

Coops is about 193cm and weighs 86 ish kgs and has played under 20 games. How is he being talked about as a KPP?

he's an interesting phenomenon, he clearly doesn't have the tools to be a key position player.

He’s also a second forward he doesn’t need to be 200. McKay is 200, they’re great foils for each other like Sharman and king will be.

200cm player + 193cm player

He's probably more the size of midsized forward and that's probably why he now finds. himself being an experiment project in the backline. To be a mid sized forward you have to have agility and move like a Gary Rohan or Bayley Fritsch. Sharman has the turning circle of the titanic unfortunately.

 

[St Kilda Death]

I reckon Membrey was the big holder upper last night, his stop and wait seems to take for ever.

He always does.
Great player, courageous.
But he is a slow decision maker.

 

[gringo2011]

I come in peace but just wanted to ask..

How come you guys sung the sing with Aboriginal and Torres strait Islander flags around your necks?

I think it will be to do with the Garma festival on this week end.

 

[MrFoster]

Issue is that it means nothing if we finish 11/11.

We need to win 2 more. I always thought we needed to split the Sydney/Brisbane double ups.

Huge challenge.

Ryder (influential last time)
Billings
Gresham
McKenzie

All missing from last time we played Geelong.

Jones might return.

Owens Hanners Clark Lienert is a downgrade on talent on the above at their best.

You can say Ryder is a loss, although in the 2nd half of the season, opposition has started to rove to his taps, so our centre clearance advantage is diminished. But he is still a good forward target.

The others are more bit part players, A fit Hanners makes up for it. If Owens and Clark can find some form next week, think it’s around the same potency compared to the win against them earlier in the year.

 

[gringo2011]

He always does.
Great player, courageous.
But he is a slow decision maker.

I like him close to goal where he doesn't have to stop. He's a gun inside 50.

 

[MrFoster]

He always does.
Great player, courageous.
But he is a slow decision maker.

Does he have anything to kick to? Are our forwards leading to the right spots or are they just congregating in 1 spot and pointing for him to bomb it in? I would think it’s the later.

 

[EddieMurphy]

Line them all up. So basically you have a vibe that ladder position is the elite midfields but then throw a few in to make it look credible. You and your straw man s**t again. If some one responds to a point of view it's not a straw man argument its a response. Your chest puffing at anything you don't agree with is very tough.

Geelong have Guthrie and Duncan who are top mids, Guthrie probably A grade, Duncan A minus. Danger and Selwood run through sometimes and have a few like Atkins who go on ball. They are a great tall outfit but run a very lean midfield. It would pound for pound be way behind ours. Dogs and Carlton both have quality and depth that beat ours.

Richmond have Prestia and Edwards who both can still produce top footy. Cotchin would be as helpful as Windhager these days. Bolton and guys like that go through there but still hardly elite.

Brisbane have some good talent but apart from Neale, McLuggage and Zorko which is good but one elite players who's around Steele level and a couple of guys around Crouch and Ross level. We still have Gresham on top.

Sydney are a bunch of kids like Warner and then Parker. They are not elite in any way.

Freo are Brayshaw and Brodie. Stats insider has them at 50 and 44 in the AFL and then a 50 year old Mundy who is still good. Hardly elite apart from Brayshaw.

Essendon have Merrett and Parish then FA.

We have Steele, Crouch, Ross and Gresham all playing good footy this year, all high in rating which is actual output not your vibe s**t because it suits your straw man argument that it's all players being s**t. I like how you give yourself an out for next year if we come good. You can say it was all De Goey when he's pretty much identical to Gresham in very way. An extra quality mid would help any side.

I don't know why it triggers you so much to be honest. It's like you can't deal with anything outside your realm of possibility.

This is a very odd table sorted by ave total clearances 2022. (AFL Team Statistics)
Hard to believe the Crows, Roos, etc have better midfields than we do? Does it mean we rate ok for outside run but grunt we lack? When it looks like with Steele and Crouch that should be a strength.

 

[AirWinmar]

Does he have anything to kick to? Are our forwards leading to the right spots or are they just congregating in 1 spot and pointing for him to bomb it in? I would think it’s the later.

There was at least one time yesterday he had options forward then held it up and eventually tried a risky switch and turned it over

 

[gringo2011]

Nothing like cousins and Ross.

There are some fair questions about the ceiling of our playing group.

You don’t ever back away from the quality of De Goey. We did that once… his name was Dustin Martin.

Cousins was seen as the player to bridge the gap between us and Geelong. Ross’s point wasn’t that we needed a cousins. We needed to commit and work harder.

This group works hard. It lacks the superstar talent. Imagine De Goey and Gresham having 40+ touches and 3+ goals between them on any given week. It’s a seriously dangerous dynamic duo.

Also takes the heat off the next wave. Who should be absolutely challenged as to game time in 23. As should Coffield and Clark.

We don't have superstar talent but don't think that's De Goey. Dusty was a lot better than De Goey when we looked at him. Chasing JDG because we passed on Dusty isn't good management. That said I've been all for him all along and agree he doubles a Gresham type and if you push Billings out for him you have an upgrade. JDG also plays on instinct rather than holding up play which I think is an improvement.

The only place we are going to get that elite talent is the draft and that might be too late. Hopefully a few already listed have it in them to rise.

I don't think we look well drilled so we might work hard but we don't work for each other.

Do you think Ratts knows what he's doing and is there any chance that we might get some new assistants and ditch Rath and Lade types?

 

[Joffaboy]

Line them all up. So basically you have a vibe that ladder position is the elite midfields but then throw a few in to make it look credible. You and your straw man s**t again. If some one responds to a point of view it's not a straw man argument its a response. Your chest puffing at anything you don't agree with is very tough.

Geelong have Guthrie and Duncan who are top mids, Guthrie probably A grade, Duncan A minus. Danger and Selwood run through sometimes and have a few like Atkins who go on ball. They are a great tall outfit but run a very lean midfield. It would pound for pound be way behind ours. Dogs and Carlton both have quality and depth that beat ours.

Richmond have Prestia and Edwards who both can still produce top footy. Cotchin would be as helpful as Windhager these days. Bolton and guys like that go through there but still hardly elite.

Brisbane have some good talent but apart from Neale, McLuggage and Zorko which is good but one elite players who's around Steele level and a couple of guys around Crouch and Ross level. We still have Gresham on top.

Sydney are a bunch of kids like Warner and then Parker. They are not elite in any way.

Freo are Brayshaw and Brodie. Stats insider has them at 50 and 44 in the AFL and then a 50 year old Mundy who is still good. Hardly elite apart from Brayshaw.

Essendon have Merrett and Parish then FA.

We have Steele, Crouch, Ross and Gresham all playing good footy this year, all high in rating which is actual output not your vibe s**t because it suits your straw man argument that it's all players being s**t. I like how you give yourself an out for next year if we come good. You can say it was all De Goey when he's pretty much identical to Gresham in very way. An extra quality mid would help any side.

I don't know why it triggers you so much to be honest. It's like you can't deal with anything outside your realm of possibility.

As I said didn't want to read your opinions stated as facts, it total garbage.

We are a mid range midfield in need of spark and more class.
Your solution, was to keep Dunstan, now it is get Crouch. Why so you can continue with your deluded fantasies about how you know every detail of the coaching and gameplan.
As stav showed you make up things and extrapolate them into some fanciful scenario that you delude yourself is a fact.
When someone points out your fallacies you get personal and go for absolutes like everyone who doesn't agree with you is a drama queen or hysterical.
Well my opinion is that you are completely wrong on our midfield, and I am completely correct that my opinion on our mids is correct, it doesn't matter what diatribe polemic rant you go on with.

BTW TL;DR your post on why we are the greatest midfield in history and it is all Rattens fault, it is repetitive boring and banal.

 

[Sun Ra]

Issue is that it means nothing if we finish 11/11.

We need to win 2 more. I always thought we needed to split the Sydney/Brisbane double ups.

Huge challenge.

Ryder (influential last time)
Billings
Gresham
McKenzie

All missing from last time we played Geelong.

Jones might return.

Owens Hanners Clark Lienert is a downgrade on talent on the above at their best.

Oh ye of little faith. Be gone.

 

[Sun Ra]

I reckon Membrey was the big holder upper last night, his stop and wait seems to take for ever.

Reckon he was a bit better with this last night. Look again.

 

[Sun Ra]

He always does.
Great player, courageous.
But he is a slow decision maker.

#2 - Reckon he was a bit better with this last night. Look again.

 

[gringo2011]

This is a very odd table sorted by ave total clearances 2022. (AFL Team Statistics)View attachment 1461665
Hard to believe the Crows, Roos, etc have better midfields than we do? Does it mean we rate ok for outside run but grunt we lack? When it looks like with Steele and Crouch that should be a strength.

Clearance stats aren't the total measure of a midfield. The Tigers have never won a lot of clearance and rely on winning off the next ball.

These stats show that we are 1 centre clearance a game off the average across all sides and 2 stoppage clearance off the average. Dogs average 2 CC and 1 SC over the average. I'm not sure they show the best midfields so much as one aspect of the midfield. Melbourne would still be pound for pound the best inside midfield set up even over the Dogs and Blues who both bat deep.

 

[gringo2011]

Reckon he was a bit better with this last night. Look again.

I don't think I can sit through it again. I'll trust you.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

he's an interesting phenomenon, he clearly doesn't have the tools to be a key position player.

He's probably more the size of midsized forward and that's probably why he now finds. himself being an experiment project in the backline. To be a mid sized forward you have to have agility and move like a Gary Rohan or Bayley Fritsch. Sharman has the turning circle of the titanic unfortunately.

Doesn’t have the tools? You miss his first few games?

You call him midsized and then compare him to players >5cm smaller than him, he’s the same height as N Riewoldt lmao

 

[gringo2011]

As I said didn't want to read your opinions stated as facts, it total garbage.

We are a mid range midfield in need of spark and more class.
Your solution, was to keep Dunstan, now it is get Crouch. Why so you can continue with your deluded fantasies about how you know every detail of the coaching and gameplan.
As stav showed you make up things and extrapolate them into some fanciful scenario that you delude yourself is a fact.
When someone points out your fallacies you get personal and go for absolutes like everyone who doesn't agree with you is a drama queen or hysterical.
Well my opinion is that you are completely wrong on our midfield, and I am completely correct that my opinion on our mids is correct, it doesn't matter what diatribe polemic rant you go on with.

BTW TL;DR your post on why we are the greatest midfield in history and it is all Rattens fault, it is repetitive boring and banal.

What are your boring posts if not banal. Put me on ignore, I'd rather not read your inane aggressive responses with straw man mentioned in every one of them like a kid who's just learnt to swear.

 

[Mowman]

He only does this to you upset you and it works

So it’s ok then ?
And he actually said himself he does it to everyone

 

[George]

So it’s ok then ?
And he actually said himself he does it to everyone

Yeah, that was the joke

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Yeah, that was the joke

The fellas are slippin in their old age

 

[gringo2011]

See this confuses me. You say Lobb is ordinary and De Goey is just like Gresham (as if that’s a bad thing) but then suggest Matt Crouch. We’ve got enough of those midfielders but we really need a dynamic midfielder forward and key forward/ruck. I don’t see how Crouch solves any of our list issues.

To me just as depth alone he's a bone and would cost FA. Hanners really made a huge difference in the absence of Gresham and when Steele went down we couldn't hold it together.

I'd take De Goey but I'm resigned to him staying at the Pies or Geelong.

 

[Mowman]

The fellas are slippin in their old age

View attachment 1461693

Ease up been out on a big lunch
Work tomorrow not happening

 

[George]

The fellas are slippin in their old age

View attachment 1461693

They're alright, just might be past their bedtime, it is almost 5pm