Preview Round 3, 2018: Richmond v Hawthorn, 8 April 2018, 1.10pm @ MCG

[Holy Rioli]

Apparently any criticism of Hawthorn is not allowed by some. I am a huge Clarko fan and constantly amazed by how kissed on the a*se we all are to be Hawk supporters. Does that mean we should not question selection and recruiting? I don’t think so.

The facts are, we fielded the most experienced team in the comp on Monday and have just ignored our youngsters in favour of someone coming off three fairly ordinary seasons, an interrupted preseason and zero match practice. That says to me, Clarkson prefers what Langford has produced over recent years to anything our younger guys can produce. To me, that is somewhat concerning.

I thought doc was pretty important in that last qtr last week. We are in a balancing act trying to win games and regenerate on the fly. Like last year if players drop off they will be replaced. I for one am liking what i see from us this year looking forward to more hawthorn style footy

I don't understand the obsession with having to play youth. I get as excited as the next fan when I get the chance to have a look at a talented kid play, but that excitement disappears pretty quickly if we've just dropped a game we shouldn't have due to inexperience/lack of full match fitness and leadership. The top two tennis players in the world are 31 & 36 respectively and have cleaned up all of the last 5 grand slam titles available. You'd have to go back to before the Doggies won the flag to find someone outside of these two who had won a grand slam title (and even then that was Djokovic).

Someone as talented and gifted as Kyrgios who has a bigger all round game than any of the big 4 from the last decade and has a winning record when combining matches against Nadal, Federer and Djokovic, just can't perform week in and week out and grind out wins against lower quality opponents. For all his natural gifts and power, hand eye coordination, reach and fast twitch muscles he can't do the work required and hasn't done the work to get the same fitness as the top guys to fall back on when he's off his game a little bit. 5 years from now his fitness will be much better than what it is now, it just takes time to build it properly. He's probably got the hardest server in the world to break when he's feeling physically and mentally fresh, but as soon as either of these goes, he's just as likely to have his serve broken 3 times in a set.

Just watching the Carlton Collingwood game now and Curnow looks on. Has as much potential as any young player in the game. I think he's about the same height and weight as Roughy and is used in a similar role at Carlton as Roughy is for us (mostly as a forward, does run through the middle from time to time).
I wouldn't be surprised if Curnow was already just as powerful as Roughy, has a better leap and is faster than Roughy.

His best 3 games this year might even be better than Roughy's best 3 games this year. But he doesn't have a decade plus of preseasons behind him, his mental strength to play through pain or to play well in a game that doesn't have a lot of significance about it isn't proven or developed yet, can he maintain his form if he has to reduce his training load significantly whilst managing an injury, and when a game is on the line can you trust him to ensure that not only is he doing his part to win the game, is he providing the leadership and direction to others around him to do the same?

It's these reasons why you pick Roughy every week over Curnow. With all the natural gifts that Curnow has, you know that Roughy will turn up week in week out during the grind of the season, in the middle of a cold Melbourne winter, and then have the conditioning to play a great grand final on a 30 degree day in late September. This is why Clarko persisted with the older guys for the first 2 months of last year, and only changed tact once a meaningful role in finals was clearly beyond us. Getting a good look at youth is exciting, but not as exciting as going deep into a finals series.

 

[Wandering Hawk]

A shot can while travelling, be on target, being on target is a state, it is either on target or it is not. A shot AT goal can miss. If something is on target it is going through. If people mean shots that are going through, they would just use the word goal, not shot on goal. It is a stupid expression that probably comes from America. The preposition on has no place in the expression.

Fair enough.

I'd think that often the phrase 'a shot on goal' is used for one that is on target and would go through unless prevented by an interception or save. In games like soccer with a goalie it's quite reasonable to talk about what would go through unless saved/intercepted, ie skill-wise accurate kicks giving credible chance of goal.

I suspect the usage has come across from such sports.

However we also allow on to be sometimes used interchangeable with upon, where the certainty of accuracy is not assumed and the emphasis is on the barrage. I can rain four blows upon/on my foe, where two go wide, one is blocked, and one strikes home. Similarly the Bismark can fire three times on the Hood without a hit. On can clearly indicate close proximity without contact, perilously close, whereas at doesn't indicate such proximity.

 

[Brishawk]

The selection of Langford and Duryea suggests Clarkson believes we are premiership contenders. I would be shocked if we are. If we aren’t, we should be pumping games into the younger players, not guys with a very, well known, low ceiling.

Again though, this is just my opinion.

Our list is the same age and experience level as Richmond’s. That puts us in the premiership window. Some teams may be more fancied but the best 22 is a mature and experienced team capable of beating anyone on its day. Clarkson isn’t going to give up on a season when he has such experience and talent at his disposal.

 

[Gralin]

I don't understand the obsession with having to play youth. I get as excited as the next fan when I get the chance to have a look at a talented kid play, but that excitement disappears pretty quickly if we've just dropped a game we shouldn't have due to inexperience/lack of full match fitness and leadership. The top two tennis players in the world are 31 & 36 respectively and have cleaned up all of the last 5 grand slam titles available. You'd have to go back to before the Doggies won the flag to find someone outside of these two who had won a grand slam title (and even then that was Djokovic).

Someone as talented and gifted as Kyrgios who has a bigger all round game than any of the big 4 from the last decade and has a winning record when combining matches against Nadal, Federer and Djokovic, just can't perform week in and week out and grind out wins against lower quality opponents. For all his natural gifts and power, hand eye coordination, reach and fast twitch muscles he can't do the work required and hasn't done the work to get the same fitness as the top guys to fall back on when he's off his game a little bit. 5 years from now his fitness will be much better than what it is now, it just takes time to build it properly. He's probably got the hardest server in the world to break when he's feeling physically and mentally fresh, but as soon as either of these goes, he's just as likely to have his serve broken 3 times in a set.

Just watching the Carlton Collingwood game now and Curnow looks on. Has as much potential as any young player in the game. I think he's about the same height and weight as Roughy and is used in a similar role at Carlton as Roughy is for us (mostly as a forward, does run through the middle from time to time).
I wouldn't be surprised if Curnow was already just as powerful as Roughy, has a better leap and is faster than Roughy.

His best 3 games this year might even be better than Roughy's best 3 games this year. But he doesn't have a decade plus of preseasons behind him, his mental strength to play through pain or to play well in a game that doesn't have a lot of significance about it isn't proven or developed yet, can he maintain his form if he has to reduce his training load significantly whilst managing an injury, and when a game is on the line can you trust him to ensure that not only is he doing his part to win the game, is he providing the leadership and direction to others around him to do the same?

It's these reasons why you pick Roughy every week over Curnow. With all the natural gifts that Curnow has, you know that Roughy will turn up week in week out during the grind of the season, in the middle of a cold Melbourne winter, and then have the conditioning to play a great grand final on a 30 degree day in late September. This is why Clarko persisted with the older guys for the first 2 months of last year, and only changed tact once a meaningful role in finals was clearly beyond us. Getting a good look at youth is exciting, but not as exciting as going deep into a finals series.

Well said.

It's a balancing act between exposing kids to enough games for them to take the step and keep the team humming so it's competitive. It's easy to say drop the journeymen for kids but every flag has journeymen and not all kids make it. You also don't get anywhere fast with just kids.

We have no idea how Langers will go but perhaps he is closer to ready than JOR and the other kids we want in based on what Clarko has seen on the track, add to that if he is coming in for Burgers he's probably the best fit available to not have to move anyone else around instead.

Morrison in his second season is a kid getting a chance, might be one week, might be two or three or the rest of the year who knows.

Glass will get his chance, JOR too if his body keeps going at VFL level. The more early wins we bank the more flexibility the club has to play some kids and give them a chance later, wins can do that same as losses

 

[Spursfan]

Langford is where he should be, the 24-25th player on the list. He comes in when there are a 3 or 4 best 22 out. Bringing in one young player (Morrison) and one experienced player (Langfoed) makes sense.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

A shot can while travelling, be on target, being on target is a state, it is either on target or it is not. A shot AT goal can miss. If something is on target it is going through. If people mean shots that are going through, they would just use the word goal, not shot on goal. It is a stupid expression that probably comes from America. The preposition on has no place in the expression.

Now you just had to go all NRA and gun control is the USA on us.
Wasn't shit on goal / target a soccer statistic anyway?

Edit.
This said 23 minutes ago.

 

[Black Saab]

Taking my little boy to his first ever game this week.
Really looking forward to seeing how we go if Richmond bring their pressure game.

No Schoenmakers who is of thought would be earmarked for Rance. Who gets that job? Impey? O’Brien?

Reckon we get up in a tight one I reckon. We’ll have to many goal kicking options.

Also reckon Cyril will explode, with some media pundits questioning his game last week, he’ll wanna play a blinder.

Hey mate, wishing you and your little bloke all the best on the day. It's a fantastic thing to take your child to their first ever game. Really hope you guys enjoy the day. It's the stuff of life long memories.

 

[SA HAWK]

Our list is the same age and experience level as Richmond’s. That puts us in the premiership window. Some teams may be more fancied but the best 22 is a mature and experienced team capable of beating anyone on its day. Clarkson isn’t going to give up on a season when he has such experience and talent at his disposal.

We have the oldest and most experience list by some margin.

If we are not making finals we have got problems.

 

[toomanysquibs]

That is odd. Langers must be miles ahead of the other hopeful mids if he gets picked with 1/2 a pre-season and no praccy games.

I think we wanted pace and defensive pressure on their fleet of decentish, mature bodied runners. As quick as we are forward, if our guys are trying to get off their opponents, and then the ball turns over, they have to flick the switch awfully quickly to get back on the same guys they were trying to get separation from.

A defensive forward like Langers is as good as a solution as we have given his history as a shutdown mid and defensive forward with serious toe. Richmond run and spread hard of half back, he's good at countering that, and brings a maniac intensity to the contests he's involved in.

As others have pointed out, f he could kick (straight), he'd likely be in every week. So sad that with his natural gifts that he torches it as often as he does.

Clarko most always conservative at selection when the more seasoned players are fit and available. I think it was only going to be one newer face with Frawley good to go.

So we get one of the new guys, and one of the more mature players rather than two who aren't already battle hardened .

Disappointed to see a O'Rourke miss a chance early in the season, given his running power. If he's fit, I would have thought we've got to get miles into him to work out how good he can be at the highest level. Sure there's a solid reason for it, but disappointed nonetheless.

 

[beta_condition]

We have the oldest and most experience list by some margin.

If we are not making finals we have got problems.

Bullshit, Only if you want to be a negative Nancy about our situation. Average age of a playing group means jack shit if you don't account for which players are the heavy lifters.

 

[Dank You Steven]

Prestia in is a positive for us

Prestia out is a positive for us!

 

[threesixpio]

Prestia out is a positive for us!

JOM got him out on the booze

 

[SA HAWK]

Bullshit, Only if you want to be a negative Nancy about our situation. Average age of a playing group means jack shit if you don't account for which players are the heavy lifters.

We have put out the oldest and most experienced teams in the first 2 weeks fact.

 

[tige19]

Prestia out is a positive for us!

He is a donut, turnover merchant.. he played 1 good game against Titch and all of a sudden he can play? Bog average footballer

 

[tige19]

We have put out the oldest and most experienced teams in the first 2 weeks fact.

This gets lost amongst the hyperbole of our supporters with rose coloured glasses on.. also makes the Langford selection a wee bit frustrating, was a perfect chance to bring in Cousins or Jono.

Love our start to the season and selection has been pretty spot on, just would like to see a little more youth.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

This gets lost amongst the hyperbole of our supporters with rose coloured glasses on.. also makes the Langford selection a wee bit frustrating, was a perfect chance to bring in Cousins or Jono.

Love our start to the season and selection has been pretty spot on, just would like to see a little more youth.

And what if we selected more youth and lost both games? Particularly the game against Geelong when they were pressing hard - the experience factor was crucial. It made sense to go for youth last year because things weren’t working. Doing it now for the sake of it doesn’t make as much sense.

We have two players over 30 this coming Sunday - I really don’t see what the panic is.

 

[HawkNation]

This gets lost amongst the hyperbole of our supporters with rose coloured glasses on.. also makes the Langford selection a wee bit frustrating, was a perfect chance to bring in Cousins or Jono.

Love our start to the season and selection has been pretty spot on, just would like to see a little more youth.

It’s very important we start this season off well. Wouldn’t surprise me if we trust the experience for the first 6 or 7 rounds and try go 5-1 or 5-2 before we put in plenty of youth.

Whilst we have one of the most experienced lists, it should be noted our core are pretty young Rioli aside (JOM, Titch, Burton, Sicily, Gunston, Rioli).

Two years ago it was Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Burgoyne 4 of our best 5 players.

WhiteX, Tyrone(contributes to the age), Hendo, Poppy, Schoey, Duryea are six guys all very replaceable which reduce the age of the list. Apologies to Hendo and Poppy.

Burgoyne the oldest player in the league will be a loss, but as much as he would have been two seasons ago. He should be treated as a cream player this season

 

[Brishawk]

This gets lost amongst the hyperbole of our supporters with rose coloured glasses on.. also makes the Langford selection a wee bit frustrating, was a perfect chance to bring in Cousins or Jono.

Love our start to the season and selection has been pretty spot on, just would like to see a little more youth.

Given a good run at it, both will get there chance at some point. You really need a big tank to play midfield. Jono has it but not sure cousins does at this stage. Both are not as effective in other roles although Jono is in theory able to play hff and wing. But Jono needs conditioning before they expose him at senior level. They may only get one shot this year at bribing him into the senior so I’m sure they will wait until he is ready. They have him as emergency so hopefully that is a sign he isn’t far away.

 

[Walshawk]

Our list is the same age and experience level as Richmond’s. That puts us in the premiership window. Some teams may be more fancied but the best 22 is a mature and experienced team capable of beating anyone on its day. Clarkson isn’t going to give up on a season when he has such experience and talent at his disposal.

Our best 22 is sensational and can certainly win the flag. Clarko mentioned that it will take time to get our confidence back that we are a top team. He is going for wins. Why wouldn’t he?
At this stage that best 22 does not include those playing at Box Hill this week. They will have to force their way in above guys like Duryea and Langford who are currently 23 & 24 in our best 22.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Given a good run at it, both will get there chance at some point. You really need a big tank to play midfield. Jono has it but not sure cousins does at this stage. Both are not as effective in other roles although Jono is in theory able to play hff and wing. But Jono needs conditioning before they expose him at senior level. They may only get one shot this year at bribing him into the senior so I’m sure they will wait until he is ready. They have him as emergency so hopefully that is a sign he isn’t far away.

Do require a higher level of fitness before debut than other clubs?

Just thinking of how we deliberately went in with fewer players than the opposition in the jlt series - it was a ‘performance under duress’ test for our young guys. Also thinking of how Clarko has always played Timmy clarke, brad hill, smith types that are beep test superstars whenever fit. Even billy got a good run early on with games despite his slight build.

 

[lickmerocks]

A couple of late changes for the Hawks- Frawley and one more!!!! Glass and Mirra (pardon the pun) but they normally go hand in hand those two.

Langford one of the luckiest dudes going round to come back in. (Murders the ball by foot)

 

[TylerDurden]

Saw some vision at training of Langers practicing set shots. Hopefully it's paid off. Couldn't stand him not making the distance from 20m out directly in front again.

 

[grumbleguts]

The selection of Langford and Duryea suggests Clarkson believes we are premiership contenders. I would be shocked if we are. If we aren’t, we should be pumping games into the younger players, not guys with a very, well known, low ceiling.

Again though, this is just my opinion.

Then it's a very poor opinion.

You know what ceiling means yeah?
Have you seen Langford's ceiling, and Duryea's for that matter?
They have each been guns at various points in their career's they both have the opposite of very, well known, low ceilings.
Re-watch the 2014 finals series. Then talk again about Langford's ceiling.

 

[OnceKicked50]

Some people are talking as if Duryea and Langford are in their mid 30s. Langford is 25 and Duryea 26.

After losing last week Richmond will be up and about and it's not unreasonable to think this game will have a finals like intensity. I couldn't think of a better game to bring Langford in. Yes he has clear deficiencies, but we will need to match Richmond's intensity around the ball and you can't fault him in that category. I think he will at times play a negating role on Cotchin who has been tagged out of games in the past.

As for Duryea, you can't ask much more from him. You're a pretty damn good player to be a dual premiership player before you turn 25. He was down last year, who wasn't, but I think he has played his role well this year and deserves to hold his spot.

 

[Brishawk]

Do require a higher level of fitness before debut than other clubs?

Just thinking of how we deliberately went in with fewer players than the opposition in the jlt series - it was a ‘performance under duress’ test for our young guys. Also thinking of how Clarko has always played Timmy clarke, brad hill, smith types that are beep test superstars whenever fit. Even billy got a good run early on with games despite his slight build.

Possibly. I just think it’s something that clarko is reluctant to compromise on in midfield roles. Through our prime, if a mid got injured we would regularly bring in a defender to release hodge or Burgoyne to play midfield minutes rather than bring in a young mid. Experience is a factor too. If you don’t know your place in the zone and when to be in the zone and when to spread it undermines the entire team defence strategy. Midfielders would have the most demands on them to transposition between states of zone and spread so it stands to reason fitness and experience are a prerequisite.