Discussion Round 5 v Melbourne @ MCG

[Rors]

Only other way I can see Wilkes not coming off is if he went back and we subbed off a back, but that seems sorta pointless...

Do you guys reckon Wilkes plays next week, or does Kosi come in? Would like to see Wilkes again, but Kosi has been good, and has kicked 9 straight... Personally feeling that Wilkes might be unlucky.

May leave Wilkes in & rest Stanley, playing Kosi as 2nd ruck against Roughead... Kosi v Roughead isnt that bad an idea considering Roughy is coming off an Achilles rupture... I dare say Kosi would be a lot fitter (even if his turning circle is that of a 3-container road-train) than Roughead

Maybe?

 

[Superduperouzel]

Maybe if he hadn´t been subbed off we had lost.
Polo did well in close and it paid off.So in hindsight it was the right decision.
It was fantastic to get a look at Wilkes and I think he can be a regular in the team. It would have been hard for forwards todayand Wilkes was quite outstanding, especially that goal and mark that is what premier KPP´s do. Love to see him on a dry day when we are on a role. Jack Steven and Armitage were great. I just love the way Steven just picks up the ball and just runs. Milera is flashy but worked really hard at the bottom of packs too.If you hadn´t been watching the game you might be well geez we couldn´t blow away Melbourne ? The ball was like soap and the dees really wanted a first win. I´m not too worried about the margin. It was very pleasing to see us win a tight game. One other point Lenny Hayes- what a champ. Please play until your 35 at least. That goal was one of the best of ever seen from him and at a crucial stage. Love watching him go about it.

 

[StFly]

Disagree goodie, in wet conditions you need rebounders from anywhere you can get them, een if they're having a shocker because they give you meterage, if you're too tall you sub a negator so I'd have said Blake. There were several times in the last when Gilbo stood tall when no one else seemed to be able to which were invaluable to those specific contests and that specific pressure being sustained. chiefly because when all you're doing a bulk of the time is kicking for meterage it can be a dire shank as long as it's going in a forward direction.

Anyway, is there a reason we have to put Kosi straight back in? I'd be against it personally given Wilkes performance in the role, got suspended for a stupid brain snap and the entire point of having blokes like Wilkes on the list is to provide options and flexibility, so why can't Kosi do a stint at Sandy and try banging that door down? Could do him the world of good having to run around a bit instead of heavy rotations and such.

 

[stkildathunda]

"We made the decision to get him off [because] we thought we needed to go a little bit smaller," Watters said.

Reckon his first instinct was his best one.

Stanley was rucking, unless you think he should of subed off Roo?

I'd be curious to know who he'd have given the red vest to, but I don't think in the context of the match, it had much bearing.

Yes, as i said at half time i thought he should have been subbed as he wasnt right. Didnt look fit or right from opening bounce. You dont take off your leading goalkicker and only forward that looks like scoring in close match. Or Gilbert should have been subbed, he had 3 touches & 1 mark to bout 3 qtr time.. pathetic.

 

[Rors]

One other point Lenny Hayes- what a champ. Please play until your 35 at least. That goal was one of the best of ever seen from him and at a crucial stage. Love watching him go about it.

Easily goal of the year so far for context of the game & sheer skill to baulk & sidestep 4 times & still goal.... GUN!!!

 

[WWSD]

Couldn't believe Wilkes was subbed off! Great game by him. Just a quick point i would like to make, I know Koschitzke will come straight back in next week, but i would actually still play Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Stanley and Wilkes. I would put Wilkes at Full Back next week against either Franklin or Roughead, what are your on thoughts on that? He can play in defense.

 

[sauce_head]

If that is true the paperwork cannot be reversed that is rediculous. It should be filled out once the sub is made, like recording interchange moves. How old is Wilkes anyway? Looking forward to seeing the game.

 

[saber_32au]

Couldn't believe Wilkes was subbed off! Great game by him. Just a quick point i would like to make, I know Koschitzke will come straight back in next week, but i would actually still play Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Stanley and Wilkes. I would put Wilkes at Full Back next week against either Franklin or Roughead, what are your on thoughts on that? He can play in defense.

Wilkes can play in defence, but it's a commonly held view around here that he performs best when playing forward. He's certainly played his best footy (in the VFL) in the forward line...

 

[Tongue In Cheek]

Couldn't believe Wilkes was subbed off! Great game by him. Just a quick point i would like to make, I know Koschitzke will come straight back in next week, but i would actually still play Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Stanley and Wilkes. I would put Wilkes at Full Back next week against either Franklin or Roughead, what are your on thoughts on that? He can play in defense.

Those of us who have been watching Wilkes know he's strictly a forward - great contested grab, great kick. The few times he's played in defence he was exposed horribly for his lack of burst speed. Simpkin stands as our best matchup on Buddy even if he concedes a couple of inches in height. Kosi seems ideal to go head-to-head against Roughie, Stanley is a valuable backup ruck and I can't see us playing 5 talls. It will be interesting to see who gets selected but I think few would be surprised to see Kosi back in for Wilkes.

 

[Plugger35]

If that is true the paperwork cannot be reversed that is rediculous. It should be filled out once the sub is made, like recording interchange moves. How old is Wilkes anyway? Looking forward to seeing the game.

I agree, I don't see why paperwork needs to be lodged before making the sub. Surely you can just do that on the spot, ie. someone just tells the interchange official we're subbing x player on for y player and then do the paperwork. It shouldn't be that hard.

Shouldn't be surprised though when we have a clown like Adrian Anderson in charge of rules and who came up with that ridiculous paperwork system for the interchange a few years ago which got scrapped after one game because it was completely unworkable. The guy has no idea, absolutely clueless.

 

[hayes]

I agree with the person who said its a game of footy not a bloody office. As soon as someone puts on the red jacket that's when it should be final.

Still not sold on that being the reason. First it was a tweak, then it was a decision before the game and then it was a paperwork thing. Either way it made no sense.

 

[stkildathunda]

I agree with the person who said its a game of footy not a bloody office. As soon as someone puts on the red jacket that's when it should be final.

Still not sold on that being the reason. First it was a tweak, then it was a decision before the game and then it was a paperwork thing. Either way it made no sense.

Thats the thing it wsa a decision they made before the game. So all this talk about it being a smart move is complete and uttely wrong.

Watters finally saw it was bad move to take him off but it was too late... But my question is, he says it was after his mark & shot he missed from 50m which he missed that he decided he wanted to leave him out there... Why so late? What took him so long after he goaled before that he decided maybe he should stay out there..

He needs to just come out and say he stuffed up, and stop blaming other "factors".

 

[StFly]

I agree, I don't see why paperwork needs to be lodged before making the sub. Surely you can just do that on the spot, ie. someone just tells the interchange official we're subbing x player on for y player and then do the paperwork. It shouldn't be that hard.

Shouldn't be surprised though when we have a clown like Adrian Anderson in charge of rules and who came up with that ridiculous paperwork system for the interchange a few years ago which got scrapped after one game because it was completely unworkable. The guy has no idea, absolutely clueless.

Time frame is the issue, once lodged there needs to be an "out" clause where it cane be relayed (say within 5mins of lodgment) that another player was subbed instead. A "rigid" system only brings problems when this was largely designed to reduce the potential for injuries.

 

[mysainters]

But my question is, he says it was after his mark & shot he missed from 50m which he missed that he decided he wanted to leave him out there... Why so late? What took him so long after he goaled before that he decided maybe he should stay out there..

Because up until that point, hadn't Beau only touched it 4 times, probably a good three of them in the first half?

I'd back that his instincts were correct when he filled out the paperwork.

The mark etc probably swayed him to look for another option, but it's not so hard to believe why he came to this conclusion.

 

[stkildathunda]

Watters ****ed up and is just looking for excuses....

AFL OPERATIONS manager Adrian Anderson says clubs can alter the paperwork required to activate their substitute, even after forms have been lodged.

St Kilda coach Scott Watters admitted he made a mistake when subbing in-form forward Beau Wilkes out of the game on Saturday night.

To Watters' knowledge, once the paperwork was handed to the AFL official on interchange duties the decision to sub a certain player out of the game could not be reversed.

But Anderson revealed that was not the case and new paperwork could be lodged even if the other forms had been locked away.

"You can change your substitute even after the paperwork has been lodged and that has happened on quite a few occasions," he told 3AW on Sunday.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/134381/default.aspx

 

[Strahany]

Because up until that point, hadn't Beau only touched it 4 times, probably a good three of them in the first half?

I'd back that his instincts were correct when he filled out the paperwork.

The mark etc probably swayed him to look for another option, but it's not so hard to believe why he came to this conclusion.

THIS.

It's getting a bit annoying with all the Koschitzke bashers and those infatuated with Wilkes (these traits seem to come hand in hand with one another).

Wilkes had a good first quarter, faded out dramatically, then bobbed up again in the third. Sound familiar? Why is it that Wilkes is lauded for such a performance, whilst Koschitzke is heavily panned?

Yes, it was wet weather football, which would have had some kind of impact on Wilkes' game, but it was also against a Frawley-less Melbourne. Their only solid KPD on the night was McDonald, and he was on Riewoldt.

Wilkes also lacks two rather significant aspects that Kosi has, being that he can't split packs open and bring the ball to ground, and he can't be used in the ruck. Beau needs to be able to significantly out perform Koschitzke in terms of their like abilities, before he can be considered a clearly better option.

Until then, can we keep some consistency in our criticisms/praising of these two, and avoid the hypocrisy?

 

[Persevering Saint]

I loved Wilke's game, and want to see him play in the future. But he didn't do enough to warrant keeping Kosi out. Certainly didn't do his chances any harm for the future, though.

 

[hayes]

Wilkes had a good first quarter when it was dry and had a quiet quarter in the second which is understandable for a forward in the wet. Kosi at this time would be done for the night but Wilkes found a way to get involved in the third quarter and after two shots on goal was subbed off. Who knows what sort of impact he would've had on the game if he was still in there.

Either way we shouldn't even be comparing a so called fadeout by Wilkes (pretty hard not to fade out when you're subbed off) to a Kosi fadeout because this was one game. Kosi has been doing it pretty consistently for a few years now.

Maybe he didn't do enough to keep Kosi out who knows, but to say he faded out like the guy he replaced is just silly.

 

[stkildathunda]

THIS.

It's getting a bit annoying with all the Koschitzke bashers and those infatuated with Wilkes (these traits seem to come hand in hand with one another).

Wilkes had a good first quarter, faded out dramatically, then bobbed up again in the third. Sound familiar? Why is it that Wilkes is lauded for such a performance, whilst Koschitzke is heavily panned?

Yes, it was wet weather football, which would have had some kind of impact on Wilkes' game, but it was also against a Frawley-less Melbourne. Their only solid KPD on the night was McDonald, and he was on Riewoldt.

Wilkes also lacks two rather significant aspects that Kosi has, being that he can't split packs open and bring the ball to ground, and he can't be used in the ruck. Beau needs to be able to significantly out perform Koschitzke in terms of their like abilities, before he can be considered a clearly better option.

Until then, can we keep some consistency in our criticisms/praising of these two, and avoid the hypocrisy?

Thats just plain incorrect. Have you seen him play up forward? He crashed packs and always brings the ball to ground if he doesnt mark it. He then has 2nd and 3rd efforts when ball hits the ground, something Kosi doesnt do.....

Wilkes cant go in ruck yes, but he can go back and take tall forward. Something Kosi cant do.. We also have Stanley as our 2nd ruck, so 3rd ruckman isnt exactly that important. How much time has Kosi spent in ruck this year?


As i said elsewhere, Wilkes was playing his first game for the club and Kosi has played well over 10 years for us.

How many possessions did Stanley, Roo, Gilbert and Melbournes talls have at half time? I can tell u Gilbert had 3 disposals & 1 mark to 3 qtr time...

 

[mysainters]

There wasn't pack crashing last night though, 4 of his marks were uncontested.

Should Gilbert have been subbed off, good argument, but it has nothing to do with Kosi.

 

[stkildathunda]

So his mark before he was subbed wasnt contested


There was officially 7 contested marks last night, Wilkes had 1 of them.

There was 11 marks inside 50, Wilkes had 4 of them.

(across both sides that is)


He also had 2 one %'s. More then Riewoldt and 17 other players on the ground.

 

[stfan]

THIS.

and he can't be used in the ruck. Beau needs to be able to significantly out perform Koschitzke in terms of their like abilities, before he can be considered a clearly better option.

Sorry, I cannot understand your logic here at all.

Players should earn their spot in the team based 1/ on what they can bring to the table and 2/ what the team needs (ie no point picking 6 ruckmen for example).

While Kosi playing ruck is handy, it with the emergence of Stanley it is no longer required as much, or at all.

Stanley's high leap means that he can be used quite differently in the ruck. Jamar was monstering Ben, but Stanley with his leap did ok it that last quarter. When we play WCE Stanley can for example be used against the igh leaping Nic Nat...where Ben will struggle and Kosi moreso.

stanaly is now the main ruck back-up. Fast forwarda couple of years and I could forsee Stanaley taking all the centre bounces, with Ben doing the around the ground follower work...with Stanley then playing asa key forward.

Now don't get me wrong Kosi was having a good year prior to being suspended. So I have no issue if he comes back in.

However stating that Beau needs to be better than Kosi's strengths ignores Beaua's.

I mean does Kosi have to be a better fill-in full back than Beau??

Only if Watters wants that particular criteria.

Beau vs Kosi is a very nice problem to have. Kosi may squeeze him out or vice versa.

But maybe Beau plays FB...or maybe Roo plays CHB to free up Sam...with Beau, Kosi and Stanley as the three marking forward targets...or Roo plays wing.

PS: At least we now know that Beaue will at least make a handy back up if one of roo, Kois or Stanley is unavailable.

 

[Strahany]

Thats just plain incorrect. Have you seen him play up forward? He crashed packs and always brings the ball to ground if he doesnt mark it. He then has 2nd and 3rd efforts when ball hits the ground, something Kosi doesnt do.....

Wilkes cant go in ruck yes, but he can go back and take tall forward. Something Kosi cant do.. We also have Stanley as our 2nd ruck, so 3rd ruckman isnt exactly that important. How much time has Kosi spent in ruck this year?


As i said elsewhere, Wilkes was playing his first game for the club and Kosi has played well over 10 years for us.

How many possessions did Stanley, Roo, Gilbert and Melbournes talls have at half time? I can tell u Gilbert had 3 disposals & 1 mark to 3 qtr time...

On the bold part: Whilst I don't watch Sandringham religiously, I have seen a couple games, and watched highlights/other footage where available. Based on that, and last night's game, I happily contend that Beau does not split packs to the degree that Koschitzke does, and in fact, he hardly splits them at all.
Kosi is able to split packs, Wilkes is able to have second and third efforts. I'd rather have someone who can bring the ball to the ground practically every time he can't mark it, than someone who can go after it if they miss their first attempt. After all, isn't that what small forwards are for, anyway?....


On the red part: Please don't tell me you're being serious with that comment. When Wilkes was drafted, the outside media instantly flagged him as the replacement for Dawson. However any St Kilda who had a clue, knew that we already had Simpkin for that role, and that Wilkes was probably drafted more as a forward, and contested the media's opinion (and you were one of these people, as most others on the board).

Wilkes was soon found out in defence in the NAB cup and people such as yourself were screaming for him to be used as a forward, and rightly so. This whole time, you've been saying the Wilkes is not a defender, and that he should be used as a forward where he plays his best. But all of a sudden, "he can go back"?. What changed your mind?

You're really clutching at straws with that one. There was a reason why Wilkes was constantly being delisted, re-drafted, and stagnating on the rookie list at West Coast - because he was being used as a defender, which is not what he is able to do. So whilst Wilkes couldn't crack a game in defence, Koschitzke won a Rising Star at Centre Half Back (see, I can pull insubstantial rubbish to suit my argument, too!!).

Now to focus on the ruck aspect of Koschitzke's game, yes it is evident his time in the ruck has decreased with Stanley now in the team, but he is still important. Why? Because whilst Stanley has plenty of raw ruck talent in terms of his physical attributes, he lacks in rucking skills. This is severely highlighted at boundary throw ins, where he has a lot of trouble positioning himself. We can't afford to have a ruckman who is only good when the ball is bounced, and Kosi has been put into the ruck at various times accordingly.


The fact is, Wilkes' game last night was not at all dissimilar to how Koschitzke has started the year, and that just isn't good enough when Kosi has those extra strings on his bow. I'll be more than happy for Wilkes to take the Full Forward position from Koschitzke, but he has to earn it, and so far he hasn't.

 

[TassieSaint]

Pretty disappointing match to be honest.

Conditions were suited to the dees, it was wet so the skills were brought down to their level, it's hard to kick away in the wet, they have a lot of small nuggety players (Jones, Magner, Moloney all played well) compared to our taller line up.

But they just about outplayed us in the first half, and we only won by 3 goals. Against Melbourne, possibly the biggest laughing stock in the league. Goddard and Riewoldt were completely outplayed, Riewoldt was especially disappointing considering he was on a 19 year old in his 6th game. Gilbert, Gram, Milne, Blake and Jones were poor.

We're 3-2 a the moment but our 3 wins were against 3 of the 4 worst sides, plus one loss to probably the 5th worst side. Hawthorn didn't look great today but they'll demolish us at this rate.

On the plus side Hayes is in top form and Wilkes looks like a good pick up.

 

[stkildathunda]

On the bold part: Whilst I don't watch Sandringham religiously, I have seen a couple games, and watched highlights/other footage where available. Based on that, and last night's game, I happily contend that Beau does not split packs to the degree that Koschitzke does, and in fact, he hardly splits them at all.
Kosi is able to split packs, Wilkes is able to have second and third efforts. I'd rather have someone who can bring the ball to the ground practically every time he can't mark it, than someone who can go after it if they miss their first attempt. After all, isn't that what small forwards are for, anyway?....


On the red part: Please don't tell me you're being serious with that comment. When Wilkes was drafted, the outside media instantly flagged him as the replacement for Dawson. However any St Kilda who had a clue, knew that we already had Simpkin for that role, and that Wilkes was probably drafted more as a forward, and contested the media's opinion (and you were one of these people, as most others on the board).

Wilkes was soon found out in defence in the NAB cup and people such as yourself were screaming for him to be used as a forward, and rightly so. This whole time, you've been saying the Wilkes is not a defender, and that he should be used as a forward where he plays his best. But all of a sudden, "he can go back"?. What changed your mind?

You're really clutching at straws with that one. There was a reason why Wilkes was constantly being delisted, re-drafted, and stagnating on the rookie list at West Coast - because he was being used as a defender, which is not what he is able to do. So whilst Wilkes couldn't crack a game in defence, Koschitzke won a Rising Star at Centre Half Back (see, I can pull insubstantial rubbish to suit my argument, too!!).

Now to focus on the ruck aspect of Koschitzke's game, yes it is evident his time in the ruck has decreased with Stanley now in the team, but he is still important. Why? Because whilst Stanley has plenty of raw ruck talent in terms of his physical attributes, he lacks in rucking skills. This is severely highlighted at boundary throw ins, where he has a lot of trouble positioning himself. We can't afford to have a ruckman who is only good when the ball is bounced, and Kosi has been put into the ruck at various times accordingly.


The fact is, Wilkes' game last night was not at all dissimilar to how Koschitzke has started the year, and that just isn't good enough when Kosi has those extra strings on his bow. I'll be more than happy for Wilkes to take the Full Forward position from Koschitzke, but he has to earn it, and so far he hasn't.

Yes i dont really rate Wilkes as a defender but he is a good a defender as Kosi is a ruckman. Kosi gets smashed in the ruck when he is in there. Fact is he can go back if needed and serve a purpose, the exact same as Kosi can go into ruck if needed.